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ever seen a bad speaker review? - Page 3

post #61 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

There's a lot of guys on here who know their **** and I would be interested in hearing a weekly show via podcast discussing hifi stuff. It just surprises me people still only rely on forums for getting info out. Forums are still heavily monitored and moderated. If those same advertisers are on the forum, mods are quick to shut a thread down and ban a member.

This is why I like AVS. There is a wider range of views and opinions good and bad, biased and unbiased. The mods very seldom close or ban members, or censor threads and posts, unless they are just down right nasty, (discussing lack of bracing, off axis problems, Xovers, is not bashing,trolling or nasty)

There is a guy on HTS that does podcasts sometimes, eugovector did a really nice podcast type review of the SVS PB12 NSD.
post #62 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

You have owners of Paradigm recommending Paradigm. B&W owners recommending B&W. DefTech owners recommending DefTech. Salk owners recommending Salk. KEF owners recommending KEF. Revel owners recommending Revel.

100% subjective.

Only way is to look at the Objective measurements in addition to all the user reviews.

What do you make of this review? http://www.hometheater.com/content/a...speaker-system


Seems excellent to me... As someone looking for HT speakers.
post #63 of 80
You guys are new to this hobby... not one of you mentions "The Audio Critic"

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_26_r.pdf
post #64 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy View Post

Any review, whether it's user or critic, is 100% pure subjective. At least Stereophile has plenty of objective measurements.

Some like Paradigm, and some think all Paradigm suck.

Some like B&W, and some think all B&W suck.

You can say the same with every brand.

The only thing you can't argue too much about is the objective measurements.

There's plenty of argument about how to take measurements, especially for non standard speakers.

And the rest is much farther from the truth. No one with a clue would say any of it. There are clearly companies who are better or worse at making speakers than others.
post #65 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClarkeBar View Post

I don't know what most of those posting here are talking about. I read negative things about speakers all the time in the magazines and online reviews. Just because they don't completely rip the speaker a new one doesn't mean they are shills. The obvious answer for anyone with a working brain is that they are not reviewing garbage but rather speakers in whatever price category that actually perform well on a comparative basis. What would be the point of reviewing outright garbage? Jeesh!!!

It must be awesome having been born knowing everything about everything, never having been new at anything, and being on a personal mission from God to make sure everyone knows that.
post #66 of 80
Without googling speaker, bad review, I know Dick Olsher absolutely ripped one of the early versions of the Carver Amazing speaker. This was a long time ago, but was significant since Carver was at the time one of the top audio companies and of course everyone knows Bob's reputation.

His biggest issue with the speaker was that Carver kept coming back and wanting to tweak the crossover while it was under review even though he had been selling the speaker to customers. They should not have been released for sale if they weren't ready for prime time. That said, once properly dialed in, that speaker earned a reputation of being one of the best all-time.
post #67 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyen78 View Post

Okay for those defending the practice with the thought that why would they review speakers they don't like etc etc.

Perhaps I'm just coming from a different community? I play quite a few video games, I read different review magazines as well as website reviews(which are getting adverts from game studios). They will rip a game for being crap, they will give it a 3 out of 10 and be outright harsh. They play games that they probably know they won't really like, and this isn't like listening to speakers for a couple hours, they actually have to play through a mind numbing, POS, totally boring game to give the reader a review.

One reviewer I know was telling me, you know, people think this job is fun, it really isn't. Yeah you get to play maybe 1 or 2 great titles a year but everyone forgets about the heaping pile of crappy games that get churned out that we are forced to play through no matter how much we hate the game. For every 1 game that is truly worth buying there are another 10 that should get developers fired and we usually try to play the game to completion. So for every hour we spend on something worth playing, we're spending another 10 on something we want to smash to bits.

I'm not saying that a negative review has to bash a product and say it totally sucks. But seriously, way too many reviews say speaker A is the best bang for the buck at a certain price point and then they say the same stuff about another 10 speakers. Well, heck...if that many speakers are so great for the price point, then maybe that is how a speaker in that price point should sound and those that can't match those 10 speakers are truly bad since they can't do what so many other speakers can. And it should be okay to say that. Professionals should be...well, professional. A review magazine shouldn't be under the financial pressure of the companies who makes the stuff they review. A bit of conflict of interest here to put it mildly.

Video games differ greatly from one game to another. Speakers ( at a given price point) don't really have lots of differences. Some speakers will not compare well with others, but the difference is not as great as between video games.
post #68 of 80
I think mostly they don't want to waste pages on negativity.
post #69 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

The only real means of producing legitimate reviews is to go digital where your bottom line isn't very expensive to operate. Invest In some testing equipment and a good methodology for testing and you will be well on your way. If I had a more technical background I would be all over it myself. Audioholics was on a good track and fell off somewhere. But there is definitely room in this arena for someone to step up.

There is someone within the Nikon photographic world by the name of Dr. Bjorn Rorslett. He's provided rigorous scientific (along with his subjective) examination of Nikon equipment for many years. He's highly respected within that hobby/profession.

There are a couple aspects that make him such a great resource. The primary factor being that he is independently wealthy, and he has the time, money, resources, and education to provide a non-sponsored (i.e. there's no $ conflict of interest) review on photographic equipment. He doesn't even ask for money to support his own personal webpage, and he's made it clear that he doesn't ask money for his review work, as he feels that would encroach on his professional reputation.

I don't know if that kind of individual exists within the audio community, but it would be nice to have.
post #70 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuttle View Post

What do you make of this review? http://www.hometheater.com/content/a...speaker-system


Seems excellent to me... As someone looking for HT speakers.

Anyone read the above review? I am unfamiliar with speaker measurements and am curious... Is the review favorable (between the lines) and are the measurements good?
post #71 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuttle View Post

Anyone read the above review? I am unfamiliar with speaker measurements and am curious... Is the review favorable (between the lines) and are the measurements good?

The Audio Critic and Peter Actzel as well as the guy over at Affordable Audio and perhaps a few others... My perception of Affordable Audio was dashed though when they started a relationship with Hifizine.com HDMI cable review that write reviews like that... They are actually an enigma at hifizine with decent DIY info and knowledgeable staff and readers but they fill in banter like that HDMI cable review... strange editorial direction there for sure...

The rest are MEDIA WHORES that will say just about anything to get schwag, free gear and MOST IMPORTANT advertising $$$.

Don't buy the DRIBBLE that comes from any of their mouths!

PS especially if the piece costs over $5k or it's a review on any type of cabling

As for those speakers I couldn't say how good they are because I've never heard them. I do know though that Adam Audio seems to be an honest outfit in terms of price/performance and they do have a very nice tweeter. It's interesting because I've seen that tweeter used recently in the Emotiva Pro line of studio monitors. I have never read of any testing of the tweeter in the DIY community. I'd put my money on Raal over it even though I've never heard the ART tweeter and as such at almost $7k for the set you could do A LOT BETTER.

For that kind of money I'd get Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with Sierra Horizon and Sierra-1s. I'd also get a Rythmik Audio FV15HP. With that list you still have $1500 to perhaps even $2k in your pocket and have possibly a better sounding system.

It most CERTAINLY WILL BE BETTER LOOKING!
post #72 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

You guys are new to this hobby... not one of you mentions "The Audio Critic"

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_i...ritic_26_r.pdf

Interesting reviews.
post #73 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuttle View Post

Interesting reviews.

It's the BEST audio magazine around bar none. That's an old print copy in pdf from 2000. It's now entirely online and has no newstand version.

The Audio Critic
post #74 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solid-State View Post

The Audio Critic and Peter Actzel as well as the guy over at Affordable Audio and perhaps a few others...

The rest are MEDIA WHORES that will say just about anything to get schwag, free gear and MOST IMPORTANT advertising $$$.

Don't buy the DRIBBLE that comes from any of their mouths!

PS especially if the piece costs over $5k or it's a review on any type of cabling

As for those speakers I couldn't say how good they are because I've never heard them. I do know though that Adam Audio seems to be an honest outfit in terms of price/performance and they do have a very nice tweeter. It's interesting because I've seen that tweeter used recently in the Emotiva Pro line of studio monitors. I have never read of any testing of the tweeter in the DIY community. I'd put my money on Raal over it even though I've never heard the ART tweeter and as such at almost $7k for the set you could do A LOT BETTER.

For that kind of money I'd get Ascend Acoustics Sierra Tower with Sierra Horizon and Sierra-1s. I'd also get a Rythmik Audio FV15HP. With that list you still have $1500 to perhaps even $2k in your pocket and have possibly a better sounding system.

It most CERTAINLY WILL BE BETTER LOOKING!

Thanks for your reply. I am looking for a 7.1 speaker setup to match my 1000 watt SV Sound PB13-Ultra sub. 5 channels driven by Wyred 4 Sound amp (3x500, 2x250). Pioneer SC-57 as pre/pro and to drive 2 surround channels.

I saw the audio critic liked his Waveform Mach 17 over the Revel Salons. Interesting.

I understand everyone recommends listening to speakers but most speakers are not really available to me to audition. I got the sub and amp based on reviews here at AVS forum.
post #75 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtuttle View Post

Thanks for your reply. I am looking for a 7.1 speaker setup to match my 1000 watt SV Sound PB13-Ultra sub. 5 channels driven by Wyred 4 Sound amp (3x500, 2x250). Pioneer SC-57 as pre/pro and to drive 2 surround channels.

I saw the audio critic liked his Waveform Mach 17 over the Revel Salons. Interesting.

I understand everyone recommends listening to speakers but most speakers are not really available to me to audition. I got the sub and amp based on reviews here at AVS forum.

And they are decent purchases. AJ has about the best ICE based digital amps around and the PB13 is a great sub. Could you have done better with less money... perhaps...
post #76 of 80
Quote:


I don't know if that kind of individual exists within the audio community, but it would be nice to have.

That would be me if I have the time and they're willing to ship the speakers where I'm currently at.
post #77 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

Keep thinking and reading, you'll get it eventually.BTW, lots of the Stereophile reviews of budget speakers compare them to other speakers. Just a hint, when they say one speaker is better than another one, it's a subtle way of saying the 'nother one is not as good.

IMO, the way to read Stereophile to best extract all of the relevant information out of a given issue (I've subscribed since the late 1990s, with about three years interlude as I was living abroad) is as follows:

Read Prof. Rubinson's "Music in the Round," especially his music reviews, closely, and also read the other music reviews in their entirety.

Look at the measurements for the loudspeakers (particularly the horizontal off-axis plot - of the speakers I've heard that have been measured by Stereophile or another source with good measurement procedures, that has the highest correlation with my subjective impressions; anything with an off-axis flare in the midrange due to inept tweeter/midrange directivity matching is going to sound bad to me - and the last line of JA's comments on the measurements. On speakers that are actually excellent (e.g. KEF Reference, Revel Ultima) he will say so forthrightly. On speakers that are less excellent than the best-of-current breed (speakers such as KEF Reference and Revel Ultima) there will be subtle caveats. Sometimes, as with a recent budget speaker (Energy something?) he will straight out say that others are more neutral. (Though one may of course prefer the less neutral speaker!)

Ignore the rest. Much of it will just make a sensible person angry anyway...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

Audioholics was on a good track and fell off somewhere. But there is definitely room in this arena for someone to step up.

Audioholics has some great content. They were notably bolder and more honest in their comments about Lexicon's Oppo BDP-83 re-clad than, say, Prof. Rubinson was. And Josh Ricci's sub reviews are the best in the business. The main problem with Audioholics is that Gene has a huge conflict of interest with RBH or whatever that speaker company is called. I don't know if it's a pecuniary interest, or merely that he's good friends with that firm's proprietors. But whatever the tie is, it colors his judgement. Any review of that company's products should be ignored. And they should really step up and offer a disclosure about what the conflict of interest actually is at the front of each review.

Note, for instance, that of the recent subwoofer measurements, the only ones NOT done by Josh Ricci were of an Emptek unit 2x10" unit that shipped with different-DCR voicecoils in each unit! Emptek is a subsidiary of this RDH or whatever company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Venomous View Post

When a pos home theater in a box gets a glowing review, you know there is something wrong.

One shouldn't necessarily exclude the possibility than an HTIB could be quite good. I've never heard/seen one that is, but given how cheap sonically transparent electronics are in quantity, I wouldn't be surprised if a big firm with a good loudspeaker engineer could make a better HTIB for $2000 than any of us could assemble from component parts for considerably more money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

Video games differ greatly from one game to another. Speakers ( at a given price point) don't really have lots of differences. Some speakers will not compare well with others, but the difference is not as great as between video games.

I don't know anything about video games, but price point and sound of loudspeakers are weakly correlated at best. And two different speakers can and often do sound drastically different from one another. Consider, for instance, a speaker based on a Lowther drive unit in a backloaded horn with no crossover, a Bose 901, a Martin Logan electrostatic hybrid, and a Revel Ultima Salon/2.
post #78 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzy_ View Post

It must be awesome having been born knowing everything about everything, never having been new at anything, and being on a personal mission from God to make sure everyone knows that.

No, I think that shoe rightfully belongs to you.

Let me guess, it was the half a working brain part, right?

Once again, in case there actually was some electrical issue with the synapses, what is the point of reviewing garbage? Now follow the bouncing ball. White van speakers are not advertising in major media. There is a reason for this.

If speakers are simply reviewed and no major issues are found, there is no conspiracy, no sucking up needed. They are part of a range of quality from decent to excellent and all of the the stops in-between. Usually the reader knows just what level of quality is being reviewed. The OP's question was direct and specific. A very likely answer lies in something quite obvious, at least to me. It has nothing to do with pontificating, prognosticating or witchcraft. It is only based on observation and logic.

So to assume no negative reviews (really? define that qualitatively and quantitatively, just so we know) means something shady is something I do not expect. In fact, the vast majority of products being reviewed are actually quite well made and perform well for their design and that is what I would expect. Are we to say that because x does not perform like Y when x is $1000 and Y is $10000 it should deserve a negative review? Or even vice versa? What is the standard? Of course it is subjective. The notion that the measurements reveal everything one needs to know about a speaker in-room is nonsense.

Better or worse? Gee, there a well defined standard.

Cheers
post #79 of 80
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeBiker View Post

Video games differ greatly from one game to another. Speakers ( at a given price point) don't really have lots of differences. Some speakers will not compare well with others, but the difference is not as great as between video games.

So then the scale should reflect that. The scale for rating is always relative to the product that is being rated. Rice Cookers can be rated from a 1-10 scale as easily as video games. If the differences aren't that great then the difference between each point would be less compared to the video game scale.

At any rate, they are different businesses. There are a lot more video game players (I think) than people into speakers. So these magazines aren't as beholden to their advertisers as they have other means of financing their business.

There is also a difference in demographics. Us video game nerds can be quite the sarcastic and acerbic witted bunch and the magazines reflect that more than the refined audiophile magazine reader. But there is an honesty in their quippy jerky jabs that I welcome.

Oh BTW, to the person who posted the audio critic link....thanks, I read some of it and enjoyed it though it was over my head in places.
post #80 of 80
Google MUSHRA and stop arguing and being so RUDE to each other.

PS MUSHRA is not just for CODEC comparison. The same methodology and testing can be done with loudspeakers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABX_test

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MUSHRA

http://www.itu.int/rec/R-REC-BS.1534-1-200301-I/en

http://www.surrey.ac.uk/msr/people/c...ne/#additional

Max/MSP

MUSHRA Max/MSP Patcher

ABX Max/MSP Patcher
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