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Daylight lamp as white reference?

post #1 of 79
4/6/12 at 2:00pm
Thread Starter 
I don't own a colorimeter but I don't want the default white from my tv.
I bought a daylight 6500k lamp to use as white reference. I know this is far away from ideal but I believe it's better than nothing.

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post #2 of 79
4/6/12 at 2:07pm
What is the make an model of the set, using the color temp preset that is closest to D6500 would be your best options. Most likely that would be warm or warm2
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post #3 of 79
4/6/12 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

I don't own a colorimeter but I don't want the default white from my tv.
I bought a daylight 6500k lamp to use as white reference. I know this is far away from ideal but I believe it's better than nothing.

Comments?

What do you intend to do with the lamp? Please be more specific.
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post #4 of 79
4/6/12 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

I don't own a colorimeter but I don't want the default white from my tv.
I bought a daylight 6500k lamp to use as white reference. I know this is far away from ideal but I believe it's better than nothing.

Comments?

No, it could easily be worse than nothing.

I'd stick with the default settings unless you plan on investing in some real equipment.
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post #5 of 79
4/6/12 at 3:25pm
Thread Starter 
Ok I think I'll stick with default. I had the chance to compare with a Samsung plasma side by side, Samsung at default warm2 and lg plasma (mine) at warm setting and the lg was noticeable warmer than the Samsung. I read that Samsung warm2 was usually close to 6500k. I don't have the samsung no more so I can use it as a reference. This is what I thought about the daylight lamp. My tv has very limited color temp settings to work with. Only r,g,b
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post #6 of 79
4/7/12 at 11:49am
To use a daylight bulb as a grayscale reference, you'll also need some type of neutral white card. Then you can compare the color of the light bulb reflected off the white card to the color of grays on your TV with the different temperature settings to see which is the best match. Do this at night in a totally dark room to prevent other sources of light from reflecting off the white card.

Some other recent links you may want to read (or re-read ) on this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1318860
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1339315
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post21234077
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post #7 of 79
4/7/12 at 9:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

To use a daylight bulb as a grayscale reference, you'll also need some type of neutral white card. Then you can compare the color of the light bulb reflected off the white card to the color of grays on your TV with the different temperature settings to see which is the best match. Do this at night in a totally dark room to prevent other sources of light from reflecting off the white card.

Some other recent links you may want to read (or re-read ) on this...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1318860
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1339315
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post21234077

Thank you. I forgot the white sheet to reflect the light.
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post #8 of 79
4/10/12 at 1:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

To use a daylight bulb as a grayscale reference, you'll also need some type of neutral white card. Then you can compare the color of the light bulb reflected off the white card to the color of grays on your TV with the different temperature settings to see which is the best match. Do this at night in a totally dark room to prevent other sources of light from reflecting off the white card.

Why do folks still recommend attempting this "method?" It leads to nothing but frustration and wasted time.

If you feel calibration is something worth doing, and you want to do it yourself get one of the easily available (and relatively affordable) software/colorimeter packages ... otherwise just pick your "warm" color temp and carry on.
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post #9 of 79
4/10/12 at 4:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hdtvchallenged View Post

why do folks still recommend attempting this "method?" it leads to nothing but frustration and wasted time.

If you feel calibration is something worth doing, and you want to do it yourself get one of the easily available (and relatively affordable) software/colorimeter packages ... Otherwise just pick your "warm" color temp and carry on.

+1
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post #10 of 79
4/10/12 at 10:05am
I recommend this for anyone on a budget or this if you want better hardware for a little more. You can always add (or rent) a spectro later for absolute accuracy.
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post #11 of 79
4/10/12 at 10:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Why do folks still recommend attempting this "method?" It leads to nothing but frustration and wasted time.

If you feel calibration is something worth doing, and you want to do it yourself get one of the easily available (and relatively affordable) software/colorimeter packages ... otherwise just pick your "warm" color temp and carry on.

this approach was useful back when color analyzers were not available or affordable to the general public... not anymore
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post #12 of 79
4/10/12 at 1:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

this approach was useful back when color analyzers were not available or affordable to the general public... not anymore

Well this is all i have. My country doesnt sell colorimeter and importing them is currently close and they cost x4 more. This method helps.
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post #13 of 79
4/10/12 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

Well this is all i have. My country doesnt sell colorimeter and importing them is currently close and they cost x4 more. This method helps.

then just stick the with default color temp preset that appears closest to neutral gray/white

what you're are attempting to do will likely make things worse than the default settings on your TVs; how do you know what you're doing right now helps without a reference point?


read post #4 again, Sotti knows what he's talking about
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post #14 of 79
4/10/12 at 5:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

then just stick the with default color temp preset that appears closest to neutral gray/white

what you're are attempting to do will likely make things worse than the default settings on your TVs; how do you know what you're doing right now helps without a reference point?


read post #4 again, Sotti knows what he's talking about

In not looking for a D6500 color temp. Actually my Main goal is to achieve the same white on my monitor pc and my tv. Of course they won't be exact since I'm doing by eye comparison but is much accurate than leaving both on default.

By doing this is If i can get closer to 6500 great. This is why I thought of using a 6500k lamp as reference to tweak my tv and monitor onstead of using the monitor as reference.
Now that you tell me this is no good, then I'll go back to my main idea that is to use the monitor 6500k default as reference and tweak the tv to match the most I can to the tv.

Why I'm not using the tv as reference because we I compared to my old Samsung warm2 setting and to all others warm setting I encounter the tv warm setting was too warm.
On the other hand the medium setting is way to blue. My monitor default 6500 seems to be more accurate to my eyes and same to warm2 setting from my old samsungs.

I hope I could explain my self with this. Sorry for the long post and I know this is not calibration.
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post #15 of 79
4/10/12 at 7:54pm
If you want your PC and TV to match, your best bet without equipment would be to set them next to each other and eyeball it.
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post #16 of 79
4/10/12 at 8:41pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah that is what I'm doing. I have them next to each other, but the other day I read about the daylight lamp and the white sheet and I thought on using that as a white reference instead the default 6500 monitor setting. That is why I started this thread.
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post #17 of 79
4/10/12 at 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

Yeah that is what I'm doing. I have them next to each other, but the other day I read about the daylight lamp and the white sheet and I thought on using that as a white reference instead the default 6500 monitor setting. That is why I started this thread.

The light can be labelled 6500K, but its CRI and its bias towards red, green or blue can ultimately let it down.

The sheet is also unreliable as a white reference.
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post #18 of 79
4/11/12 at 9:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

If you don't plan on getting a meter, you'd honestly be better leaving the white balance controls on your displays alone; I don't know why you don't believe that.

Why do you need them to match? How would you know which is closer and which is farther from D65 with your eyes alone anyway?

It looks ugly to see differencies on white on the tv and monitor, i want them to match because is distracting to my eyes when i use both at the same time.

Again I don't care to get them to be 6500 since I don't have the equipment, i understand is impossible. I just want them to match the best I can with my eyes.

The question was if I can use a 6500k lamp as reference. The answer is no. So I'll go back and use the monitor as reference to make those display match the best I can.
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post #19 of 79
4/11/12 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

I don't own a colorimeter but I don't want the default white from my tv.
I bought a daylight 6500k lamp to use as white reference. I know this is far away from ideal but I believe it's better than nothing.

Comments?

Sorry, it's not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

Ok I think I'll stick with default. I had the chance to compare with a Samsung plasma side by side, Samsung at default warm2 and lg plasma (mine) at warm setting and the lg was noticeable warmer than the Samsung. I read that Samsung warm2 was usually close to 6500k. I don't have the samsung no more so I can use it as a reference. This is what I thought about the daylight lamp. My tv has very limited color temp settings to work with. Only r,g,b

Yes, your LG might have been significantly warmer than the Samsung but the Samsung might have been too blue to begin with and so the LG could be closer OR both could be off by the same amount but in opposite directions. You don't have a reference point to know which is right and which is wrong, assuming they're not both wrong. You don't even know which is better, if either is to begin with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

Well this is all i have. My country doesnt sell colorimeter and importing them is currently close and they cost x4 more. This method helps.

Again, how do you know it helps?

Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

In not looking for a D6500 color temp. Actually my Main goal is to achieve the same white on my monitor pc and my tv. Of course they won't be exact since I'm doing by eye comparison but is much accurate than leaving both on default.

Why I'm not using the tv as reference because we I compared to my old Samsung warm2 setting and to all others warm setting I encounter the tv warm setting was too warm.
On the other hand the medium setting is way to blue. My monitor default 6500 seems to be more accurate to my eyes and same to warm2 setting from my old samsungs.

You may get them reasonably close to matching if you know what you're doing but that in no way means it's more accurate than leaving both on default.

You say some presets look too blue and some too warm. While the ones that look too blue to your probably are too blue, the ones that look too warm might actually be quite close, or even still too blue. On many TVs the warm or warm2 preset is still too blue.
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post #20 of 79
4/11/12 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by booker21 View Post

It looks ugly to see differencies on white on the tv and monitor, i want them to match because is distracting to my eyes when i use both at the same time.

Again I don't care to get them to be 6500 since I don't have the equipment, i understand is impossible. I just want them to match the best I can with my eyes.

The question was if I can use a 6500k lamp as reference. The answer is no. So I'll go back and use the monitor as reference to make those display match the best I can.

Yes, if you want them to match, that's all you can do without a meter/software
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post #21 of 79
4/11/12 at 9:50am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

Yes, if you want them to match, that's all you can do without a meter/software

Thanks. Ill do that.
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post #22 of 79
4/14/12 at 1:07pm
booker21,

Folks here will try to pick apart the optical comparitor approach for various reasons. But if you use a bulb with CIE xy coordinates reasonably close to D65 (like the GE mentioned in my previous links), with a neutral white card that's a good match to the X-Rite/Munsell photo white cards, it should provide a pretty good reference for your TV's color temperature.

Is it as good as using a measuring instrument? Probably not. But it'll likely get you closer to the ballpark than any other low-cost method.

If you don't care what color the displays are though, and just want them to match, then you may not want to bother with this.
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post #23 of 79
4/14/12 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by fahrenheit View Post

The light can be labelled 6500K, but its CRI and its bias towards red, green or blue can ultimately let it down.

The CRI doesn't matter if you're using a white card. All that really matters is how close the bulb's color is to D65.
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post #24 of 79
4/14/12 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

The CRI doesn't matter if you're using a white card. All that really matters is how close the bulb's color is to D65.

I think the real trick is a bulb and white card that produces a spectrum remotely close to D65 cost as much i1 D2 or spyder4.

Decent setup, but no accuracy assurance:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm#Standard
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...e_Balance.html

While it may work, it's not really a value. That standard ideal lume bulb doesn't even have x,y specs, not that it's bad, but if you want a bulb that really nails D65 then you're looking at the pro bulb. http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/Ideal-Lume.htm#pro at $299, you're well into the cost of buying a meter and software.

Ten years ago when meters were all $1000 or more, this was a great value, budget solution. Now it's a non starter.
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post #25 of 79
4/14/12 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I think the real trick is a bulb and white card that produces a spectrum remotely close to D65 cost as much i1 D2 or spyder4.

Decent setup, but no accuracy assurance:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm#Standard
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...e_Balance.html

While it may work, it's not really a value. That standard ideal lume bulb doesn't even have x,y specs, not that it's bad, but if you want a bulb that really nails D65 then you're looking at the pro bulb. http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/Ideal-Lume.htm#pro at $299, you're well into the cost of buying a meter and software.

Ten years ago when meters were all $1000 or more, this was a great value, budget solution. Now it's a non starter.

Some really good points, I agree that this method was useful a decade ago but now the best budget option is a D2, D3, or Spyder 4 (bundled with HDTV calibration software like CalMAN or ChromaPure).
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post #26 of 79
4/14/12 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I think the real trick is a bulb and white card that produces a spectrum remotely close to D65 cost as much i1 D2 or spyder4...

Not sure I agree Joel.

As mentioned here, according to GE, the coordinates on their standard off-the-shelf 6500K daylight bulbs are x=0.313, y=0.337, which is pretty close to D65. I'm just takin their word on that though.

The bulb used in the Ideal Lume Pro is probably more costly because it employs a more exotic blend of phosphors/illuminants to ensure that colors render accurately (which may be beneficial for bias lighting). If you're just reflecting light off a plain white card though, then the CRI (color rendering index) doesn't really matter.

Renting a good meter would probably be less hassle, and more accurate though, if that's a practical option for you.
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post #27 of 79
4/14/12 at 2:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADU View Post

Not sure I agree Joel.

As mentioned here, according to GE, the coordinates on their standard off-the-shelf 6500K daylight bulbs are x=0.313, y=0.337, which is pretty close to D65. I'm just takin their word on that though.

Exactly you are just taking GE's word about a budget bulb. Something mass produced without the level of quality control isn't very reliable.

Also I don't see any specs other than 6500K, no mention of d65 or x,y coordinates
http://genet.gelighting.com/LightPro...FieldCode=null

http://www.amazon.com/89082-10-Watt-...4438386&sr=8-1
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post #28 of 79
4/14/12 at 3:07pm
I took a look at those links and this appears to just be typical CFL bulb rated at 6500K with a decent CRI (82). You could make a cheap bias light with this bulb but I can't see it being helpful in terms of dialing in grayscale on a modern TV with a Warm (or Warm2) preset that is likely in the ballpark to begin with.

This bulb may not even be truly 6500K, let alone D65.
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post #29 of 79
4/14/12 at 7:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

I think the real trick is a bulb and white card that produces a spectrum remotely close to D65 cost as much i1 D2 or spyder4.

Decent setup, but no accuracy assurance:
http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/ideal_lumesb.htm#Standard
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...e_Balance.html

While it may work, it's not really a value. That standard ideal lume bulb doesn't even have x,y specs, not that it's bad, but if you want a bulb that really nails D65 then you're looking at the pro bulb. http://www.cinemaquestinc.com/Ideal-Lume.htm#pro at $299, you're well into the cost of buying a meter and software.

Ten years ago when meters were all $1000 or more, this was a great value, budget solution. Now it's a non starter.

I understand this but I can't get a colorimeter because import is close at the moment and it will be for a long time because government decision.

I can't leave default settings because one display is to warm and the other is too cold compared between the two.

My main goal is to get both white similar to each other. Since they are side by side I'll use my eyes and try to match them. I know it's not a perfect solition but is the only possible way.

This is why I asked abiut the chance of using a 6500k as reference white. I understand this is not possible or at least not accurate. In fact by looking the 6500k lamp I bought is bluer than the two displays. I'm wondering if the white I'm used to its warmer than the 6500k. Just a thought.
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post #30 of 79
4/15/12 at 3:53am
You might want to take a look at my experiements with various lights (although I had different goals to you).

http://biaslighting.blogspot.com

Scroll down to where I tested the tubes on the white and grey cards and where I used the photoshop colour picker.
If you have a camera, you can at least sample the two displays and see how they differ from each other.

Ultimately, without a reliable reference like a colorimeter or trustworthy light source, you will be comparing two dissimilar things, but if you prefer or trust one monitor over the other, this method of comparison might help you get the other one closer to it.
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