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Anyone have an Ivy build on Z77 scheduled ? - Page 3

post #61 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I think he was referring to OCZ. He won't buy anything from them.

I know he was, but it's not made by OCZ. PCP&C was a good company before OCZ bought them, and that PSU is made by Seasonic. OCZ barely enters into it.
post #62 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Most PSU are made by someone else. The brand logic does not make sense unless you really research heavily to determine the OEM.

He's had bad experience with OCZ or PC Power and doesn't want to support them. That's his prerogative.
post #63 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

If that was remotely true, your logic would demand that we build htpcs using Tyan S7052 motherboards and a pair of Xeon E5-2600 cpus. Just so we can be "sure" that we won't "outgrow it" in 2-4 years.

Things are not remotely as indeterminate as you suggest, and if things change as dramatically as you posit they might, your i7 will be obsolete as well. Just buying something that's gross overkill today doesn't future proof you. My old Q6600 quad core system is unsalvagable today for an HTPC and is about to go in the "leftovers" pile in the basement while I expect to be using my small form factor Pentium D for quite some time. Processor power has nothing to do with the suitability or obsolesence of those two systems.

If you outgrow the i3 in 2 years it will be because some new technology is required that isn't in any chip you can buy today, including the i7; it won't be because the i3 is too slow.

Good post.

Once again the "lowly" i3 gets no respect. The thing is a beast for HTPC.
post #64 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Most PSU are made by someone else. The brand logic does not make sense unless you really research heavily to determine the OEM.

It's not hard, the information is readily available, and who makes it is all that matters.

Or you can just buy a Seasonic or FSP and know who made it and that it's a quality unit.

If you buy one sold under the name of some company because you like their cases or fans or SSDs without knowing who made that model, then you might as well just go buy the $15 one at Target.
post #65 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

He's had bad experience with OCZ or PC Power and doesn't want to support them. That's his prerogative.

Proabably got stiffed on a rebate by OCZ. Apparently that's not uncommon.
post #66 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Most PSU are made by someone else. The brand logic does not make sense unless you really research heavily to determine the OEM.

While thats true, Seasonic is actually one of the companies that build PSUs, for their own brand and for many others.
post #67 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by James_stewart View Post

I'm tired of reading this. What exactly is overkill? As I've learned over the years technology always finds a way to outgrow our current limitations. What if in two years you have the ability to download 3D movies and television shows? What if the computer that was once "overkill" is now just right? Our minds often can't grasp what we'll see years down the road, for this reason it's better to invest in components that you won't outgrow in 2-4 years. That's not to say you should pay top dollar for components, but give yourself the infrastructure to be able to add those high quality components down the road.

If this was a desktop computer forum or thread, you'd be partially correct. Instead, you find yourself in a HTPC forum. I don't know how you operate with your purchase decisions, but generally speaking, I'm a fan of getting a tool to do the job with the least amount of expense necessary. Unfortunately, the HTPC world isn't as dynamic as your post would lead one to believe.
I would further argue that it is much more cost effective to buy a minimalist system now and a minimalist system 4 years from now then it would be to buy top of the line now and hope that whatever technological advancements come in 4 years won't still need a new hardware set.

You can buy a Ferrari to be a 5mile commuter, but I would never recommend it and it's horribly inefficient to do the job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Since it all upper level CPU's your probably half correct. Nothing wrong with overkill. Sometimes it's cool just for the sake of being unnecessary. They are power efficient- and if you run them in energy mode- they won't really cost much more in energy costs- and certainly have more in performance gains.

But- Can you get away with a cheaper Sandy CPU? Of coarse you can

Which is exactly the point. If you can do everything you need to in the HTPC arena on an 80$ cpu, why in the world would you ever recommend something more?

I have no patience for e-peen.
post #68 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Proabably got stiffed on a rebate by OCZ. Apparently that's not uncommon.

This is total crap.

I received 10 rebates from them.

You fill them out online and even get a confirmation.

The system is better than 99% of the other PC hardware MFG's that use normal mail system only.

Online rebates > mail in rebates.


OCZ gave me an email confirmation after I applied. They even offer a $2 deduction for instant rebates. You can get a prepaid visa or a check expedited without the normal wait time of mail in rebates for $2 upcharge deducted from your total rebate.

Or- Just wait for the full check like I do.

Honestly- the OCZ rebate programs are easier and better than most.

I hate to always be such an OCZ fanboy but it's obvious this information gets spread around by people that either never owned a product or never applied for a rebate.

Example:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227725
+
http://images10.newegg.com/uploadfil...pr3012yh62.pdf

Brings 60GB SSD to $59 after rebate ($20 mail in)

Here is the rebate website:

https://ocztechnology2.4myrebate.com/

Even allows you to track the rebate and follow up on it. You get confirmation numbers and emails it was received. You can check weeks later to see the status.

Seems better than most others I deal with. Also- It seems about impossible to me to not get a rebate under this process. With a confirmation email, and a tracking website that tracks your rebate it just seems very unlikely you would not receive it.

And- If for some reason you don't get customer service would help you. You can even reply to the confirmation email for help.

Not sure why you said this above. Must have never tried it yourself.
post #69 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

It's not hard, the information is readily available, and who makes it is all that matters.

Or you can just buy a Seasonic or FSP and know who made it and that it's a quality unit.

If you buy one sold under the name of some company because you like their cases or fans or SSDs without knowing who made that model, then you might as well just go buy the $15 one at Target.

No no. I know who makes what.

I posted that Toms article a hundred times on these forums about OEM's and who makes and who rebrands.

I have a Rosewill

Of coarse it's not really a Rosewill. Lol. Which I guess I would hope for $200... lol. (We have here a Super Flower Golden Green inside)





Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

He's had bad experience with OCZ or PC Power and doesn't want to support them. That's his prerogative.

yeah that is cool. I hear that.

I won't buy a gigabyte anymore, it's been since my first socket 939 for me.

I probably won't ever buy another crucial SSD either.

(But for some reason I have always bought their DDR RAM for years, had it fail and still keep buying it. I think because they always swap it out for me, and I have faith they will continue in the future. I got 4 sticks of BALISTIX DDR800 swapped out twice, years after purchase. )

I think crucial is lower on overall quality- but higher on customer service so I guess it's a fair trade off.

Always had good luck dealing with Crucial as a company- even though I have had trouble with their products.

Funny how people make decisions about these kinds of things.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevcairiel View Post

While thats true, Seasonic is actually one of the companies that build PSUs, for their own brand and for many others.

Oh yes. I know.

here is an interesting read on the subject:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...urer,2913.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lars99 View Post

I have no patience for e-peen.

Might be stupid question I regret asking ...

What is "e-peen" ?
post #70 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

NVidia custom is about as close as it gets right now. There are pros and cons with a custom resolution as well.

The point is none of them are perfect. Why Intel continues to be singled out baffles me.

I thought Intel was singled out because it isn't possible to tweak the custom resolution parameters to get close? The problem with such a low refresh rate is that if it is off by even a little bit it is easy to see (at least for me it is).

Can you get something like 23.977 or 23.975 from an Intel display driver right now, with a custom resolution? I didn't find anything from a brief search, but I hope I am wrong in thinking it isn't possible!
post #71 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

I thought Intel was singled out because it isn't possible to tweak the custom resolution parameters to get close? The problem with such a low refresh rate is that if it is off by even a little bit it is easy to see (at least for me it is).

Can you get something like 23.977 or 23.975 from an Intel display driver right now, with a custom resolution? I didn't find anything from a brief search, but I hope I am wrong in thinking it isn't possible!

Yes, absolutely.

Here is probably the best discussion anywhere in the world on this matter. Interestingly before its creation there were many on AVS and elsewhere that just plopped a discrete card in their HTPC and considered the problem "solved". Or many that just bought a card from the beginning and didn't even attempt to use the integrated gpu.

The first post where I mention the "Intel with UAC off" doesn't really apply anymore. You don't need to have UAC off to get within .003 nowadays.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1333324
post #72 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

I thought Intel was singled out because it isn't possible to tweak the custom resolution parameters to get close? The problem with such a low refresh rate is that if it is off by even a little bit it is easy to see (at least for me it is).

Can you get something like 23.977 or 23.975 from an Intel display driver right now, with a custom resolution? I didn't find anything from a brief search, but I hope I am wrong in thinking it isn't possible!

oh no you didn't just drop that here...
post #73 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

oh no you didn't just drop that here...

Its okay. This is the kind of stuff that's spewed all over the internet. Its our job at AVS to inform and re-educate the less enlightened.
post #74 of 106
Looking to build a new machine (dual purpose workstation / HTPC) soon and was considering an Ivy CPU, but if I understand the AnandTech review correctly the graphics performance (madVR) for the HD4000 is slightly worse than a GT430? So I'd be better off both for performance cost with a SB CPU and a GT430? Or did I misunderstand? I'd appreciate some expert advice!
post #75 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluestraw View Post

Looking to build a new machine (dual purpose workstation / HTPC) soon and was considering an Ivy CPU, but if I understand the AnandTech review correctly the graphics performance (madVR) for the HD4000 is slightly worse than a GT430? So I'd be better off both for performance cost with a SB CPU and a GT430? Or did I misunderstand? I'd appreciate some expert advice!

You can use the integrated graphics on either Sandy or Ivy and get good performance.

If you decide you want a video card anyways- Nvidia card will also work.

You probably don't need an Ivy CPU (they cost more) and could build a cheaper Sandy based PC.

Hope that helps.
post #76 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluestraw View Post

Looking to build a new machine (dual purpose workstation / HTPC) soon and was considering an Ivy CPU, but if I understand the AnandTech review correctly the graphics performance (madVR) for the HD4000 is slightly worse than a GT430? So I'd be better off both for performance cost with a SB CPU and a GT430? Or did I misunderstand? I'd appreciate some expert advice!

GT430 has more headroom for madVR use than HD4000, that said I have not found that the extra headroom provides any tangible value when madVR is configured to use full screen exclusive mode (FSE). If for some reason you cannot use FSE, then I think a GT430 (or similar) is a better choice.
post #77 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

GT430 has more headroom for madVR use than HD4000, that said I have not found that the extra headroom provides any tangible value when madVR is configured to use full screen exclusive mode (FSE). If for some reason you cannot use FSE, then I think a GT430 (or similar) is a better choice.

Thanks to you (and to Mfusick) for the super-fast replies! Just one confusion - in the AnandTech review I see "Exclusive mode settings were not applicable to our testbed, because we found the full screen exclusive mode to be generally bad in performance compared to the full screen windowed mode". This seems the opposite you said here, i.e. FSE will do better than windowed?
post #78 of 106
assassin: 23.973 is the best that can be achieved right now with the Intel? I saw that thread and was hoping for something better than a frame drop every 333 seconds! Yes - I can see that - I think it's because I spent many years (since 2006) tweaking my HTPC to match a standalone playback device, without using Reclock! That was when I realized my old Benq 8700 projector had a serious bug where it locks in at 60.000 hz instead of 59.94 hz, regardless of what custom rez OR standalone device I used - ugh!

Anyhow, don't worry about it - I understand what you mean now.

mfusick: I was asking because I thought assassin claimed it can match 23.976, but I could find no evidence to the contrary - but now I realize it's because my definition of "matching 23.976" has a higher tolerance than his! I am looking for something within the range of .001 and not .003. If I knew this I wouldn't have asked!
post #79 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

assassin: 23.973 is the best that can be achieved right now with the Intel? I saw that thread and was hoping for something better than a frame drop every 333 seconds! Yes - I can see that - I think it's because I spent many years (since 2006) tweaking my HTPC to match a standalone playback device, without using Reclock! That was when I realized my old Benq 8700 projector had a serious bug where it locks in at 60.000 hz instead of 59.94 hz, regardless of what custom rez OR standalone device I used - ugh!

Anyhow, don't worry about it - I understand what you mean now.

mfusick: I was asking because I thought assassin claimed it can match 23.976, but I could find no evidence to the contrary - but now I realize it's because my definition of "matching 23.976" has a higher tolerance than his! I am looking for something within the range of .001 and not .003. If I knew this I wouldn't have asked!

I encourage you to read the entire thread. Very interesting. Don't assume just because you add a discrete card you will get any closer.
post #80 of 106
assassin, I've been doing this longer than most HTPC owners here, so I know exactly what people are talking about in that thread (I just got caught up in it as I hadn't looked at it in a few months), from both points of view.

Now, my bias is towards an engineering approach: the default doesn't cut it for me. For the regular joe-blow strawman off the street, they won't care. Hell, most people won't even care if the framerate was 15 fps! (Look at the popularity of VCD in asia back in the old days, and SVCD is STILL popular there!)

I have an NVIDIA geforce 560 card - I pretty much nailed it to my satisfaction and am pretty happy with it - it matches my standalone blu-ray player now. The 23.972 that is "out of the box" drove me nuts, especially with more recent content that love to jerk the camera around a little bit when all people are doing are standing around and talking!

Anyways - this is all moot. When the new boards hit the market and more reviews come in, we will see - I am not interested in one-man evangelical crusades for or against perfect refresh rates - I just want something I can control to _my_ satisfaction, and we all can agree on that!
post #81 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by maxleung View Post

assassin, I've been doing this longer than most HTPC owners here, so I know exactly what people are talking about in that thread (I just got caught up in it as I hadn't looked at it in a few months), from both points of view.

Now, my bias is towards an engineering approach: the default doesn't cut it for me. For the regular joe-blow strawman off the street, they won't care. Hell, most people won't even care if the framerate was 15 fps! (Look at the popularity of VCD in asia back in the old days, and SVCD is STILL popular there!)

I have an NVIDIA geforce 560 card - I pretty much nailed it to my satisfaction and am pretty happy with it - it matches my standalone blu-ray player now. The 23.972 that is "out of the box" drove me nuts, especially with more recent content that love to jerk the camera around a little bit when all people are doing are standing around and talking!

Anyways - this is all moot. When the new boards hit the market and more reviews come in, we will see - I am not interested in one-man evangelical crusades for or against perfect refresh rates - I just want something I can control to _my_ satisfaction, and we all can agree on that!

Understood. I think NVidia with custom resolution is about as good as it gets right now if you must have 23.976.
post #82 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

No, you should not. The i3 versions of the CPU won't be available until Dec 2012.

i3 might not be that far,

Intel's desktop Ivy Bridge Core i3 processors pricing

Quote:


Despite the fact that Intel's upcoming Ivy Bridge based Core i3 processors aren't expected to arrive until early June

What i guess we might not see until late 2012 is probably Pentiums/Celerons.
post #83 of 106
Thread Starter 
Yes higher end sooner and entry level farther in future

If you looking for $50 CPU then sandy is your choice
post #84 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I would be curious to hear how it goes down.

Otherwise- they still have a good price on CPU or you can buy it online.

Went to Micro Center & spoke with a manager. The $15 coupon offer was on their web site for one day only and you had to refer a friend. Bottom line I was not able to get one. I bought the G620 anyway for $49.99.
post #85 of 106
Quote:


I have an NVIDIA geforce 560 card - I pretty much nailed it to my satisfaction and am pretty happy with it - it matches my standalone blu-ray player now. The 23.972 that is "out of the box" drove me nuts, especially with more recent content that love to jerk the camera around a little bit when all people are doing are standing around and talking!

I was going to start a new thread to ask my question, but since it is getting discussed in this thread, I will ask here.

What is it that 23.972 rather than 23.976 does that drives you nuts? Provided I (or you) don't bitstream and use reclock, it shouldn't drop frames, or at least that is the impression that I got. I assumed the difference would be just a speed up or slowdown of frames delivered to my display device if the timing isn't exactly 23.976. Is that not correct? If it is correct, then my display device should be able to adjust by 4 parts in 24000 to compensate rather than seeing dropped or duplicated frames.

I also see posts where the timing isn't "rock solid" but changes slightly, maybe between 23.973 and 23.979 or so. I have assumed that that would manifest itself as a small jitter in the video signal, and if using reclock, maybe a small jitter in the audio to go along with it. Is that correct?

If not, I'd like to know what happens.

FYI, I have a dlp projector that will sync to 23.976 but I had to get it repaired to replace the 6x colour wheel and I'm not sure if slowing it down and speeding it up to 59.94 contributed to this or not. And yes, there is a slight slowdown of the colour wheel for 24fps playback. The wheel has 2 segments each for each colour so it does have to slowdown for 24fps from 60. So now I only run @ 60fps, since I find I don't notice the 3/2 cadence much. HOWEVER, I'd like to replace it and get back to a projector capable of proper cadence with 24fps material.

Also FYI, the clock in my current PC, either the mobo or graphics card or both are not overly accurate. I had problems with the PJ until I changed the refresh to 59.97. This was 1/2 way between the upper and lower ends where my PJ would reject the settings of the graphics card. This requires reclock to adjust signals by 700-800 samples/sec (or so it seems to claim). There is a noticeable pitch change in the audio when reclock makes its adjustment. However once that is done, things seem to run just fine within the confines of what I just set out. I don't have perfect pitch, so the change doesn't bother me.
post #86 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

What is it that 23.972 rather than 23.976 does that drives you nuts? Provided I (or you) don't bitstream and use reclock, it shouldn't drop frames, or at least that is the impression that I got.

If you're bit streaming the video renderer either needs to drop frames or you will have A/V sync issues. At least in DirectShow there is one master clock and it is usually the audio renderer. Reclock (an audio renderer) works differently though, in that it slaves itself to the video clock and resamples audio to maintain A/V sync w/o dropping frames.

For most things the slight deviation is unnoticeable unless you're watching for it, but it is there and obvious if you 1) know what to look for and 2) are paying attention. Personally, it [like most subtle PQ issues] only bothers me when the content sucks .

Quote:
Originally Posted by sstephen View Post

I also see posts where the timing isn't "rock solid" but changes slightly, maybe between 23.973 and 23.979 or so. I have assumed that that would manifest itself as a small jitter in the video signal, and if using reclock, maybe a small jitter in the audio to go along with it. Is that correct?

In most cases the rate drifts in the beginning, then settles down to a # where the drift isn't that significant. In my environment this is usually in the 23.973-23.974 range with IVB on the HW I tested. We will be getting some IPG/boards in for testing that are better suited for HTPC use (if there are particular models the community is interested in knowing more about, please LMK ASAP - no promises of course ). If IVB plays out like SNB, we can expect something b/w 23.972 and 23.975, this varies b/w hardware and content - which, while not perfect (and we should keep pushing for better precision) is not blocking IMO.
post #87 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike99 View Post

Went to Micro Center & spoke with a manager. The $15 coupon offer was on their web site for one day only and you had to refer a friend. Bottom line I was not able to get one. I bought the G620 anyway for $49.99.

$50 for a G620 with no shipping is very solid deal!
post #88 of 106
I'm building 2 of them .... Asus P8Z77-V Deluxe for both ....HTPC & power use PC's
Mine & for the Wife
post #89 of 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastslappy View Post

I'm building 2 of them .... Asus P8Z77-V Deluxe for both ....

One thing to note about ASUS boards; unless something has changed, the power LED blinks in S3. For me this is a blocking issue.
post #90 of 106
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

One thing to note about ASUS boards; unless something has changed, the power LED blinks in S3. For me this is a blocking issue.

Most motherboards have two P-LED header hookups you know. I know asus does.

You complaining about the blinking light?

I am confused what your saying
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