OCZ SSD's at a good price - Page 3

forget all these NAND based SSD's...
I want a MRAM based SSD...
be much faster than current SSD's...
plus unlimited writes...

unless OCZ is the ones who come out with it... then I wont want it because even though no one has come up with any real hard evidence, nor can they produce any sort of respectable citation, we all just somehow know that OCZ is evil...

Can you point to a thread there, because I looked and didn't find what you're talking about.

As I said, if this was a widespread problem with the SF-1200, I expect it would be more widely known, similar to the way the SF-2281 problem is discussed everywhere.

It's not widespread or well known. It's obscure.

You know this,I think- or at least suspect it- as I think as your question reads are more of a challenge than a "want to know".

I just figured I would clear it up for the less well informed readers.

Any product and any MFG can be found some obscure failure or error that is not common and effects a small percent of a large population.

I am sure I could find an error in any SSD anyone picked if I went looking.

But that's like finding a person who got struck by lightning. Sure it happens, there is so many people out there it's likely to happen to someone at some point. But- is it realistic to think you are going to get hit by lightning???

It's not a fear I have when I leave my house everyday.

Same thing for SSD defects.

Any SSD is wonderful and it should be expected that any brand and model perform properly for expected life cycle.

the hardest LOL I ever got on AVS is the clown in the "SSD vs HDD" thread that said he is still using a HDD because SSD is not reliable.

Felt bad for him. Whatever error was occurring in his brain to make him think that... it's very sad. I could not imagine being so afraid of SSD technology I would endure a HDD experience. It just seems like there is so many users and so many reviews and so much postive evidence of why you should switch to SSD that for someone to remain with HDD out of some ignorant misplaced fear is a sad state of affairs.

And what percent of PC users have HTPCs? 1%? Less than? Even on this board, how many folks use SSDs for their HTPCs? While the issue might not affect you, it doesn't mean it won't be an issue for other users on this board.


And yet there are folks who still do it (myself included, actually). This guy's planning on doing it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1408973

NAND endurance is pretty much a non-issue already. OCZ has just implemented artificial limitations (quite understandable for warranty purposes). Unfortunately, the user has no (officially sanctioned) way of turning it off even if they're willing to void the warranty. On an upside, the Vertex/Agility 3's seem to handle throttling a lot better than Vertex/Agility 2's.

As for alternatives, one of them is getting an SSD from a different manufacturer.


Again, I'm not saying it's not appropriate for use as an OS and programs drive. Just pointing out potential pitfalls for users with this specific HTPC-related use-case scenario. Heck, you don't even need to spend more to avoid this particular issue and you can stick to Sandforce if you want. The Mushkin Chronos 120GB ($90 no rebates) is supposed to have "unthrottled" firmware.

ilovejedd,

You have articulated your point well. While I don't plan on ever doing it- I learned something reading your posts.

Thanks.

Wow. SSD throttling.

Learned something new today.

I knew about this back from my first vertex2. Years ago this was known.

It was known because in benchmarking it repeatedly.. it would slow down. Not a little- but very much.

What I am confused about is- I always thought it would return back to baseline normal performance after the excessive beyond normal real world use stress had ceased.

The thinking was to protect the drive from overuse and increase reliability.

Benchmarking can place high levels of stress on SSD.

but today- I think it's better known that in general SSD's are pretty reliable and up to the task.

Sure. But why even get any ssd (Intel, Plextor, Crucial, Mushkin, OCZ, etc) if throttling is present? Why even risk it when there are different options for around the same price?

Well- you would not if you thought you were actually going to write that much data to your SSD.

But real world heavy use- even high level abuse of normal PC operation would never come close...

Only a benchmark program or some some very extreme activity would do it.


For most users- it's a non issue.

Not something I would worry about when choosing an SSD for an OS installation and OS drive. It's a non factor.

Back when SSD's first arrived on the scene people were benchmarking them repeatedly - and the older Sandforce 1200's did have a control to limit that in effort to increase reliability.

It's not a factor on the SATAIII sandforce drives anywhere I have ever read about or seen. It would not be a factor in 99.9% of the users who have them.

I think you might be surprised to learn the Marvel controller also has a limit btw...



Also,

Last note- we again are talking about an old problem not current or widespread.

Keep in mind we are talking SATA2 and older V2 SATA3 drives only. Current Vertex3's you would buy now it's a non issue, and also Muskin and other Sandforce 22xx drives as well.
This again is a case of taking an old - not common thing- and blowing it up beyond proportion.

And- the "throttling" is temporary. Not forever. Full performance can be restored. The throttling is set at a level of use much higher than typical as a warning and prevent from burning out premature.

There is some throttling once you have written over every page of the nand in the drive with SF drives. With older drives you would have to secure erase the drive to restore full performance. not a big deal though, and seriously it isnt a cause for alarm.

This was much improved in the V3's over the V2's also.

The V3's do throttle down, but actually release very quickly now, w/o a secure erase. I've seen bench's where they hammered the crap out of it into it's throttled state, showed the throttled numbers (which was only effecting seq writes) then did another run with no idle time, and the throttle was already removed.

Please people reading this- Understand- This is again a very small thing that won't effect 99% of the people who buy or use them.

Let's not blow this out of proportion either.

Think of this as a rev limiter that kicks in on your car motor if you hold the gas pedal down in neutral, rather than let it scream at or above redline and risk damage.

Fair enough.

I love all my SSDs and honestly have no idea if they have throttling and frankly don't really care.

For those of you interested...

If you want to know what triggers Throttling it really depends on many variables.

The biggest factor would be write consistency closely followed by the type/size of data used. Incompressible data being the worst as it will bypass/reduce compression and therefore hit more physical space.

Then to a lessor degree.. the drivers used which may or may not effect trim efficiency and the amount of idle time between the transfers. Even small pauses or breaks can help the controller to keep up on recovery of dirty nand.

In a worst case scenario with little pause between huge transfers of incompressible data?.. I saw about 3 times the capacity of the drives physical space needing to be written to hit major throttles. Even then though?.. the very next back to back write of incompressible data shot back up to near fresh speeds.

Fact is.. you'd be hard pressed to see or feel anything less than heavy throttles with this newest 6G controller. Only benchmarks would show it and would be worthless to worry about throttling with anything less than ridiculously extreme usage scenarios. The throttling concerns went away with the older Sandforce controller.

Really? Take your pick:

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/fo...and-discussion

I see there is a new firmware apparently, v1.37. Hope springs eternal.

If you're not averse to SandForce, there are some pretty good deals on the SanDisk Extreme SSDs right now.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1414496/sandisk-extreme-120gb-100-240gb-180-480gb-380-on-amazon-gold-box

The Vertex3 was $69 at three places last week FYI

What NAND type is it ??

SanDisk Toggle-mode DDR NAND.