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Cheapest ever HTPC that's decent. Proud of myself. - Page 16

post #451 of 835
5/31/12 at 1:23pm
We can thank OCZ for these price drops. Their pricing is extremely aggressive.
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post #452 of 835
5/31/12 at 1:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudgetHT View Post

I bought one of the OCZ Agility 64GB SSD and love it. It's super fast or at least compared to any HDD I've ever owned.
Now I may have to step up to an 120GB SSD just to see how fast it is.

Most of the speed boost is from a HD to an SSD - ANY SSD. There are measurable speed differences among NAND types, controllers, SATA II vs III, and SSD size. But don't expect to see a difference if you switch from a 60 to 120 like you saw going from a hard disk to that 60gb SSD.

Check out these two articles by Tom's Hardware.
Buy The SSD You Can Afford, Not The Fastest One

"So banish any thought that you must save for the newest, most expensive, and highest-rated SSD. If you have the money for a platform upgrade, there are certainly measurable gains to be had from upgrading to a SATA 6Gb/s-capable motherboard and the best solid-state drive. On a tighter budget, however, buying the SSD that everyone says is the fastest isn't as important as buying an SSD you can afford, particularly if it means replacing a hard disk as your system drive."

And Should You Upgrade? From A Hard Drive To An SSD

"Let's say it again, though. An SSD, regardless of which one you pick, runs circles around mechanical storage. . . . We have to admit that this is a blatant and perhaps provocative call to enthusiasts who haven't yet touched solid-state storage: don't deny yourself the advantages of an SSD the next time you upgrade your PC. Although the benefits are hard to quantify in some of the benchmarks we run, an SSD offers so many obvious advantages, even to average users, that this call to action seems justified."
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post #453 of 835
5/31/12 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

We can thank OCZ for these price drops. Their pricing is extremely aggressive.

There have been a number of articles recently about the price war going on right now in SSDs. Everyone's trying to buy market share by cutting prices. Even Intel got into the act with those rebates last week.

OCZ has been the most agressive from the beginning.
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post #454 of 835
5/31/12 at 1:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

I have a Mushkin Enhanced Callisto Deluxe 120GB. Have been using it for several months. Works just fine.

With a few exceptions (Intel, Samsung and Plextor specifically), I don't worry much about brands for SSDs. I pay attention to the controller used. Most of these companies are just buying NAND and a controller and putting it in a container. But frankly I don't think I've ever had a bad Mushkin item.

Thanks for the info! Got one ordered, now just need a mobo & processor.
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post #455 of 835
5/31/12 at 4:14pm
I would honestly say that, considering this
is an HTPC budget post, a SSD is a luxury but definitely not a necessity for an HTPC only build. I'm sure people will argue but the speed if only using for HTPC will only be noticed in boot, which you can avoid by suspending the pc. This also assumes your running video content from a server.
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post #456 of 835
5/31/12 at 4:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeforsale View Post

I would honestly say that, considering this
is an HTPC budget post, a SSD is a luxury but definitely not a necessity for an HTPC only build. I'm sure people will argue but the speed if only using for HTPC will only be noticed in boot, which you can avoid by suspending the pc. This also assumes your running video content from a server.

You notice it in virtually everything. It's not "essential" as in you can certainly build a fully functional htpc without one, but it's also not a "luxury" any more. Not even close.

Even on a budget most folks want decent performance, or we'd all be using Athlons and Atoms. An SSD is part of that decent performance.

Really, read Tom's article where they compared a hard disk and an SSD. It's not a luxury for speed demons and enthusiasts any more.

Should You Upgrade? From A Hard Drive To An SSD

Plus, if you can store your content elsewhere, then building an HTPC with ONLY an SSD has innumerable advantages (size, noise, heat, power, in addition to speed) and is no more expensive than using a hard disk. Hard disks are still good for large scale storage, but today, not for much else.
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post #457 of 835
5/31/12 at 4:56pm
I think SSDs are great and should definitely be used in certain situations, I just don't think an HTPC that is going to be used to only watch/listen to media from a server is one of them. Hands down SSD wins the fight against a regular HDD, but for watching a movie I doubt the performance boost is noticeable at all. If you can afford it absolutely go for it, but if your looking for a true budget build a regular HDD will work fine.
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post #458 of 835
5/31/12 at 6:55pm
Thread Starter 
You can certainly build a HTPC without an SSD.it would work fine too.

I just choose never to do this because I don't think it is worth it.

It's like not using high speed Internet to surf AVS. I could also easily use a dial up connection. It would work too. Just slower,


But I also don't choose to use a dial up connection because the performance it too poor. I don't use a hard drive because for me the performance is too poor.

Once you get accustomed to SSD speed you just can't go back.

For me at least. The SSD is not a luxury it's a requirement. I would urge anyone reading this to expand thier budget to get an SSD and the largest fastest you can for your budget. It's just plain worth it.

SSD is not a place you want to cheap out.


I would much rather take a Celeron or pentium CPU and cheaper case and PSU to allow for a good SSD.

I would never own or operate a HTPC with an i3 or i5 with 16gb DDR3 and a $100+ nice motherboard if it had a HDD for OS. Rather a cheap build with SSD since it would perform better real world.

I am biting my tongue cause this is a budget thread but take my advice and include an SSD in your budget. It's worth it.
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post #459 of 835
5/31/12 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeforsale View Post

If you can afford it absolutely go for it, but if your looking for a true budget build a regular HDD will work fine.

But if you are using a server as you assumed in your prior post then with today's HDD and SSD prices it's no more expensive to buy an SSD, so then there's no reason at all to go with the HDD. Then there is no "affordability" issue at all. You need a HDD for storage, that's all, and if you have a server, in-HTPC storage is irrelevant.

And I don't think a budget build should entail sacrificing performance in any event. It's about buying the appropriate components and not wasting money buying more than you need or things that won't produce a real life performance gain. It's about not buying the $150 case, or the fanless Seasonic PSU, or 8gb of high speed ram. I consider the SSD to be part of the basic performance package, including in a budget build. Can you build without it? Certainly. Should you build without it? Well I know that I won't.
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post #460 of 835
5/31/12 at 9:14pm
I assume budget to include just PC parts I may have that I could add to to make a HTPC. My server is ran off an old 939 socket AMD Athlon x2 PC someone gave me because they couldnt get it to work. I think comparing high speed to dial-up is different in that you notice a speed difference when browsing the web. You will not notice a speed boost from an SSD watching a movie. Navigating explorer, watching your
PC boot, or any other task aside from listening/watching media you will definitely see a major difference. Just a personal opinion (and I really do like SSDs) but I would much rather use an old HDD for a budget HTPC build and spend more on PSU or CPU.
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post #461 of 835
6/1/12 at 3:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Let's say I build 15 PC's. What is the best and cheapest way to get licenses?

How about 10?

Or 5?

Does it change?

If you want to do the legwork you would finagle a bunch of scrapped out computers with XP licenses and transfer the hard drive's contents, or if you could find the refresh disks run them to get a clean new install.

I've seen deals on 3 packs of Win 7 upgrade that worked out to be about $50 each.
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post #462 of 835
6/1/12 at 7:48am
In my house, an SSD is a must have in an HTPC. Until I put SSDs in my HTPCs, they weren't "appliance worthy". What I mean by that is how quickly all aspects of the experience work from reboot to restart to bringing up the guide to starting the slideshow screensaver and everything else. HDDs were too slow, not for me but for the wife and kids. The issue was the wife and kids pressing remote buttons several times because the HTPC was not responding fast enough. We might be all used to waiting for Windows to respond but the wife and kids, not so much -- maybe on the PC in the office but not the one on the TV -- the expectations are much different for them. They expect it to act like an appliance and respond nearly immediately or else "it's not working".

Consider your audience.

Anyway, I am not saying YOU can't build an HTPC with a HDD but it's minimum spec in my house due to WAF and KAF.
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post #463 of 835
6/1/12 at 9:00am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StardogChampion View Post

In my house, an SSD is a must have in an HTPC. Until I put SSDs in my HTPCs, they weren't "appliance worthy". What I mean by that is how quickly all aspects of the experience work from reboot to restart to bringing up the guide to starting the slideshow screensaver and everything else. HDDs were too slow, not for me but for the wife and kids. The issue was the wife and kids pressing remote buttons several times because the HTPC was not responding fast enough. We might be all used to waiting for Windows to respond but the wife and kids, not so much -- maybe on the PC in the office but not the one on the TV -- the expectations are much different for them. They expect it to act like an appliance and respond nearly immediately or else "it's not working".

Consider your audience.

Anyway, I am not saying YOU can't build an HTPC with a HDD but it's minimum spec in my house due to WAF and KAF.

This was a pretty intelligent way to explain it. I agree.
.
The bottom line is an SSD is surely worth the money and even in a budget build you want one.
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post #464 of 835
6/1/12 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

I have a Mushkin Enhanced Callisto Deluxe 120GB. Have been using it for several months. Works just fine.

With a few exceptions (Intel, Samsung and Plextor specifically), I don't worry much about brands for SSDs. I pay attention to the controller used. Most of these companies are just buying NAND and a controller and putting it in a container. But frankly I don't think I've ever had a bad Mushkin item.

So mind following up with some advice on what to look out for in the controller?

BTW, Newegg apparently has a 64 GB SSD on sale today for $49:
http://www.techbargains.com/news_dis...ubSource=03/12
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post #465 of 835
6/1/12 at 11:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post

So mind following up with some advice on what to look out for in the controller?

BTW, Newegg apparently has a 64 GB SSD on sale today for $49:
http://www.techbargains.com/news_dis...ubSource=03/12

If you google Sandforce SF2281 bug, you'll see what is probably the biggest question mark, although I think it's largely been resolved. Or better still, read this Anandtech Article which sums it up really well.

To put it briefly, the Sandforce SF2281 family of SATA III controllers had one of the most widespread systemic problems of any SSDs (in part because it's probably by far the most commonly used controller). It was largely, but apparently not absolutely, resolved by a firmware fix last October. Intel has, according to Anandtech, fixed the last remnant in its new SF2281 SSDs, but that fix may not make it to others.

For a long time I personally avoided Sandforce based SATA III SSDs (easily idenfiable by their 60/120/180/240gb cabacities, rather than 64/128/256 of others), but I recently bought an Intel 330 series, and I don't urge people to avoid others anymore because I think the problem is largely in the past. But if it makes you nervous, either buy a Samsung (they make their own controllers), Intel (they write their own firmware and validate it), or a Plextor M3S or Crucual M4 that use Marvell controllers. This isn't an issue, by the way with Sandforce SATA II models.

The fact is, there are millions of 2281-based SSDs out there in circulation and the overwhelming majority work just fine (Mfusick owns about half of them )

Oh, I would also personally avoid the OCZ Petrol and Octane, which use what OCZ calls the Indilinx Everest controller. In reality it's a Marvel controller (basically the same as used in the Plextor, Crucial and some Intel models like the 510) but uses new Indilinx written firmware. The reviews have not been good, and I think that's reflected in the real fire-sale prices you can find on the Petrols. I can't figure out why someone would take a perfectly well-performing controller and write new bad firmware for it, but that seems to be what OCZ did with these models (they bought Indilinx last fall and apparently wanted to get some product with the Indilinx name on it out the door).
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post #466 of 835
6/1/12 at 12:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post

So mind following up with some advice on what to look out for in the controller?

BTW, Newegg apparently has a 64 GB SSD on sale today for $49:
http://www.techbargains.com/news_dis...ubSource=03/12

The difference in price and performance is more the memory type used. Not the controller. The controller only becomes a factor in high end products and synthetic benchmarks.

Tomshardware and most other review sites I have seen basically agrees with this. Most of the Sandforce drives perform much about the same as another- with the only exception or factor being the type of memory used. You can get a Sandforce controller in a $50 SSD or a $250 SSD- and while there is a performance difference the controller is not the reason.

Most ~ $50 64GB SSD's uses a cheaper memory, which accounts for it's very low everyday price. (I bought a Agility3 for $48)

Real world though.. it's probably tough to tell much difference between a $55 Agility3 and any other SSD of the same size. This would suggest the value at that price. In fact - some important benchmarks sometimes favor Sandforce based SSD drives over other controllers - The Agility is certainly a solid value. It's price is low and it's performance is not relative to it's price tag.

Size determines speed too. So you can assume a 120GB SSD should outperform a 60GB of the same variant. Bigger the SSD drive the faster the SSD drive.


As a further example using OCZ's popular line up: (I am familiar with it)

Above the cheapo $50 Agility3 I referenced above, OCZ makes the Vertex3 which is supposed to be a step up from Agility but still uses the same controller. The major difference I believe is the memory. Architecturally the Agility 3 is identical to the Vertex 3. You get the same controller running similar firmware, and as a result post similar peak performance stats.

But the Vertex3 does indeed outperform it in benchmarks. If it's not the controller causing this, and it's not the firmware - then it's the NAND. The Agility 3 (and Solid 3) both use asynchronous NAND.

Equipped with asynchronous NAND, the Agility 3's max performance is limited to 50MB/s per channel compared to 200MB/s per channel in the Vertex 3. The Vertex 3 doesn't come close to saturating its per-channel bandwidth so there's a chance that this change won't make much of a difference. To further tilt things in the Agility 3's favor, remember SandForce's controller throws away around 40% of all of your data thanks to its real time compression/deduplication algorithms - further reducing the NAND bandwidth requirements. When a Vertex 3 pushes 500MB/s that's not actual speed to NAND, it's just how fast the SF controller is completing its tasks. In a typical desktop user workload without too much in the way of incompressible data access, the Agility 3 should perform a lot like a Vertex 3.

I have a MAX IOPS Vertex3 in my main i7 Machine I use which also uses the same controller- but the NAND is different (better)

Not wanting to be completely married to Intel NAND production, OCZ wanted to introduce a version of the Vertex 3 that used 32nm Toshiba Toggle NAND - Rather than call the new drive a Vertex 3 with a slightly different model number, OCZ opted for a more pronounced suffix: MAX IOPS.

Like the regular Vertex 3, the Vertex 3 MAX IOPS drive is available in 120GB and 240GB configurations. These drives have 128GB and 256GB of NAND, respectively, with just under 13% of the NAND set aside for use as a combination of redundant and spare area.

The largest NAND die you could ship at 32/34nm was 4GB - the move to 25nm brought us 8GB die. What this means is that for a given capacity, the MAX IOPS edition will have twice as many MLC NAND die under the hood.


In terms of performance and SSD hierarchy it looks something like this:

#1. Top shelf = second-gen SandForce SSDs with Toggle NAND

#2. Samsung 830 SSD 256 GB and second-gen SandForce SSDs with Sync ONFi NAND

#3. Crucial m4 256 GB and OCZ Vertex 4 (not Sandforce controllers)

#4. second-gen SandForce SSDs with Async ONFi NAND (like Agility3)


Crucial M4's remain a good option for anyone that does not want a Sandforce controller in their SSD Drive. They perform well and sell for low street prices. Personally I like the Sandforce controllers. The performance is high and the price is low.

If your concerned with budget first- the Agility series probably performs real world very similar for a slightly lower price. Think $50-$60 for the 60GB

If your concerned with performance and also budget a Sandforce with Sync NAND is probably as cheap or cheaper than a Crucial M4 and a bit quicker. Real world it's not significant probably, but technically it's true.

A Vertex3 is a faster drive. The 60GB Vertex3 is only about $10 more. ($65-$74) The Vertex3 uses the superior NAND than the cheaper SSD's and that is why it is slightly more expensive. I would think a $64 Vertex3 is actually a better deal than a $55 Agility3 or like drive with cheaper NAND because the performance is higher for slight cost.

If your not really concerned with budget as much as performance- Look for Toggle NAND and Sandforce second gen controllers. These drives are among the fastest drives available today in any given GB size segment. This is the enthusiast performance option. Probably not for a HTPC.

CLIFF NOTES:

Async NAND = CHEAP
Sync NAND = GOOD
Toggle = BEST

All are a decent option for a budget build- buy what you find a good deal on but know what the difference is.
The memory type is probably more important in terms of performance and price/value than the controller is.

Controller arguments are more bickering than anything. There is two groups- Group 1 loves the Sandforce Controllers for the LOW PRICE and HIGH PERFORMANCE. GROUP 2: Like the Crucial M4 and alternative controllers. They think the reliability might be higher and this is worth more than the performance downgrade or the higher price.

Your best value is probably a Sandforce controller drive - in the $50-$75 range with SYNC NAND. If your very budget limited look for an Async NAND model for under $50.

Don't you dare consider getting anything less than 60GB to try and save a buck. That is a stupid move.

most people that want the extra worry gone about reliability- but still want the Sandforce benefits should look close at the Intel 330. Intel is tops when your speaking about reliability. These are Sandforce based drives that perform well, sell for low value prices, and come with Intel's extra validation regarding reliability.

If your worried - spend another $10 on Intel is the best choice I think. It's a small sum and worth it to many.

Personally, I would save the cash or put it towards a larger size- but that is just me. I am not scared about reliability. Never had an issue with 15+ SSD's I own.


HOPE THAT HELPS


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

The fact is, there are millions of 2281-based SSDs out there in circulation and the overwhelming majority work just fine (Mfusick owns about half of them



Old pic... but you get the idea.

My collection is larger now




Quote:
Originally Posted by leebo View Post

So mind following up with some advice on what to look out for in the controller?

BTW, Newegg apparently has a 64 GB SSD on sale today for $49:
http://www.techbargains.com/news_dis...ubSource=03/12

BTW:

Your Looking at this:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820220581

It is $69 before the rebate and the specs are:
Sustained Sequential Read up to 270MB/s
Sustained Sequential Writeup to 230MB/s


You can also get a VERTEX 3 for $59 AR
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227737

Performance
Max Sequential Read
Up to 535MB/s (SATA 6Gbps)
Max Sequential Write
Up to 480MB/s (SATA 6Gbps)

This Drive uses the SYNC ONFI NAND and has SATAIII

I would get SATAIII and the higher performance for the $10.
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post #467 of 835
6/1/12 at 12:29pm
Thread Starter 
I have tried Sata II and SATA III.

I have tried 60GB and 120GB and 240GB.

I have tried Crucial M4 in same size vs a Sandforce drive.

I have tried TOGGLE NAND, SYNC NAND and ASYNC NAND.

The cheapest of the 15 SSD's I own is a $48 60GB Agility3 in my server for OS.

The most expensive I own is a my VERTEX3 MAX IOPS with Toggle NAND @ $250

I can tell you that in a HTPC there is very little differences between any of them and also it's just plain stupid and ignorant to think that any SSD you buy from any MFG today won't work or be reliable for it's expected life cycle.

Buy based on price to performance ratio.

In this regard the SYNC NAND + Sandforce drives are $50-$75 and probably your best value right now.

I linked a $59 above.

Here is a pic I took my with iphone last time I was building a PC as proof of my experience across multiple sizes and types.

I doubt you will hear from anyone else that has as broad a user spectrum as I do with SSD's.



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post #468 of 835
6/1/12 at 12:35pm
^ +1 Great info!!
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post #469 of 835
6/1/12 at 12:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


Here is a pic I took my with iphone last time I was building a PC as proof of my experience across multiple sizes and types.

I doubt you will hear from anyone else that has as broad a user spectrum as I do with SSD's.

The same can be said about CPU's.

We had a discussion about this earlier...





I own Celeron, Pentium, i3, i5, and i7's and I would be happy to explain the differences to anyone based on my real world observations.


My cheapest CPU is the G530 for $38 and I have an i7 overclocked at 4.6ghz in my main machine- with just about every Sandy option in between them in use some place in my life.
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post #470 of 835
6/1/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

I own Celeron, Pentium, i3, i5, and i7's and I would be happy to explain the differences to anyone based on my real world observations.

Please do!

I'm curious to know what kind of gains you get from upgrading from a "class n" processor to a "class n+1" processor.
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post #471 of 835
6/1/12 at 1:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KevBel View Post

Please do!

I'm curious to know what kind of gains you get from upgrading from a "class n" processor to a "class n+1" processor.

For a basic HTPC build on a very limited budget a G530 would perform fine. Anyone that knows any level of higher performance would also know they needed more and why.

I have no problem recommending a G530 for $38 on the lower side of things.

The value for HTPC is in the G630 @60$. It's almost impossible to tell the difference vs the i3 and it's 40-50% cheaper. This is what I run in my personal HTPC. The G620 is only 100mhz slower and it's a non factor. For 5$ or $8 it might be worth the increase of 100mhz to the G630 but beyond that it's not worth it. I think G620 is ~$50. $10 for 100mhz is reasonable in either direction- money spent or money saved but both fall into the same value category.

i3- it's a turd. It's a waste of money in a HTPC since I can't tell the difference vs the G630 in any meaningful way. Many buy the i3 because it seems like the best option- middle of the road- room to grow etc... But reality is that the current level of performance you get from a G630 CPU is so amazing it's enough... if you needed more performance for a specific reason (encoding or gaming most likely) then your best bet it to skip the i3 and go with i5 quad core.

Bottom line either the G620/G630 is enough or you need an i5. And with this- these are totally different uses and types of machines to determine which direction you go.

(Side note: I also built an i3 on a GREEN WD 2TB for the OS and it was such a turd and slow I grew to dislike the entire thing and I think that leaves me a poor taste in my mouth for the i3. But I have an i3 on SSD too and it's not better at anything in the office than the G630 right next to it.)

i5 - 2500k is a beast! The Ivy level of this I imagine the same. It is indeed faster than the i3 in a meaningful way. It can encode better, it can game better- and I can real world notice the difference. Highly recommended for a power user- but totally overkill for a basic HTPC. Save your cash you don't need it.

i7- also a beast. But not a big difference between the 2500k. I would probably save the money and get an i5 quad core since it's tough to imagine anything it would not be sufficient for.

It's nice when I juice it up (overclock) mostly because I am an enthusiast and enjoy how totally stupid fast it is.

Running on a TOGGLE NAND SSD and 16GB of overclocked memory with dual dedicated 6870 X2 GPU's it's pure bliss for an enthusiast. It's actually too fast- and I find small odd errors with things because of the excessive speed. For instance I find old software installs funny .. because it's so fast I just blinks and it is done. I can't tell if it was error or it completed properly... it's kinda annoying.

I mean I can install a basic program like WINRAR or FIREFOX - and all the screen does is flash- and it's done. There is no bar .. or installation meter or wait time. It's not what I am used to at all.

My recommendation for a budget HTPC is a $50 Pentium Sandy CPU like the G630 or G620.

If you think you need an IVY CPU your a fool. Or- your an enthusiast like me and just want it just because. That is ok too
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post #472 of 835
6/1/12 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post


I doubt you will hear from anyone else that has as broad a user spectrum as I do with SSD's.

Well, you have more quantity, but I may have more variety.

Let's see.

3 Plextor SATA III (a 64GB M2S, and two 128GB M3S, all Marvell controllers)
2 Samsung 470 SATA II (one 64GB, one 128GB both Samsung controllers)
1 Samsung 830 SATA III (128GB Samsung controller)
1 Mushkin Enhanced Chronos 120GB SATA II (Sandforce)
1 Sandisk Ultra 120GB SATA II (Sandforce)
1 Intel 330 180GB SATA III (Sandforce SF2281)

Pretty well covers the waterfront. They all work, they're all fast. Frankly I don't notice any difference. They're all just fast.

I don't have a SATA II Marvell or pre-2011 models with conrollers by JMicron, Indilinx, Toshiba etc., but I doubt you can buy any of those today anywhere other than ebay anyhow. And I don't own a Indilinx Everest OCZ model ( and don't want one.)
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post #473 of 835
6/1/12 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

The value for HTPC is in the G630 @60$. It's almost impossible to tell the difference vs the i3 and it's 40-50% cheaper. This is what I run in my personal HTPC. The G620 is only 100mhz slower and it's a non factor. For 5$ or $8 it might be worth the increase of 100mhz to the G630 but beyond that it's not worth it. I think G620 is ~$50. $10 for 100mhz is reasonable in either direction- money spent or money saved but both fall into the same value category.

i3- it's a turd. It's a waste of money in a HTPC since I can't tell the difference vs the G630 in any meaningful way. Many buy the i3 because it seems like the best option- middle of the road- room to grow etc... But reality is that the current level of performance you get from a G630 CPU is so amazing it's enough... if you needed more performance for a specific reason (encoding or gaming most likely) then your best bet it to skip the i3 and go with i5 quad core.

Have to disagree. And it also depends where you shop. At Micro Center the i3-2100 is only $89.99, and it's a 50% stronger cpu than the Pentium. It's a great chip. And it has 3D.

To me, if you want a budget build, get the G530. If you want a more "mainstream" level of performance, get the 2100. I'm sure the Pentiums work fine, but to me they're kind of lost in the middle.

And although I have both an i5-2500K and a new i5-3570K desktops, I have the same reaction to the i3 as you have to the Pentium - the current level of performance you get from an i3 is so amazing it's enough.

Although, I have to admit, that the pricing on the i5s is also so low that it's tempting to buy far far more than you possibly need. Bracket creep, from a 2100 at $90 to an i3-2125 at $120 to an i5-3450 at $150 to an i5-2500K at $170, to an i5-3570K at $190, is pretty easy to get caught up in. And that's not counting the "get $50 off a motherboard" deals. My i5-3750K with an Intel DH77KC motherboard cost a grand total of $260 including tax. That's way more processor than I need for anything I do, but it seemed like a good idea, or at least too good a deal to pass up.
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post #474 of 835
6/1/12 at 1:36pm
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Have to disagree. And it also depends where you shop. At Micro Center the i3-2100 is only $89.99, and it's a 50% stronger cpu than the Pentium. It's a great chip. And it has 3D.

To me, if you want a budget build, get the G530. If you want a more "mainstream" level of performance, get the 2100. I'm sure the Pentiums work fine, but to me they're kind of lost in the middle.

And although I have both an i5-2500K and a new i5-3570K desktops, I have the same reaction to the i3 as you have to the Pentium - the current level of performance you get from an i3 is so amazing it's enough.

Although, I have to admit, that the pricing on the i5s is also so low that it's tempting to buy far far more than you possibly need. Bracket creep, from a 2100 at $90 to an i3-2125 at $120 to an i5-3450 at $150 to an i5-2500K at $170, to an i5-3570K at $190, is pretty easy to get caught up in. And that's not counting the "get $50 off a motherboard" deals. My i5-3750K with an Intel DH77KC motherboard cost a grand total of $260 including tax. That's way more processor than I need for anything I do, but it seemed like a good idea, or at least too good a deal to pass up.

Totally agree with you on all this.

I just think that $49 is good for a budget build. $89 while still cheap is $40 more. You can basically buy two G620's for that price.

$89 is a great deal and your getting sucked in on the "value" since it's does not seem expensive to you...

But- reality is for a budget build the G620 is enough. And if you need more- then get a cheap i5.

I think we can all agree the current level of performance of the SANDY and IVY is amazing and totally capable and great values.
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post #475 of 835
6/1/12 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
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Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

Well, you have more quantity, but I may have more variety.

Let's see.

3 Plextor SATA III (a 64GB M2S, and two 128GB M3S, all Marvell controllers)
2 Samsung 470 SATA II (one 64GB, one 128GB both Samsung controllers)
1 Samsung 830 SATA III (128GB Samsung controller)
1 Mushkin Enhanced Chronos 120GB SATA II (Sandforce)
1 Sandisk Ultra 120GB SATA II (Sandforce)
1 Intel 330 180GB SATA III (Sandforce SF2281)

Pretty well covers the waterfront. They all work, they're all fast. Frankly I don't notice any difference. They're all just fast.

I don't have a SATA II Marvell or pre-2011 models with conrollers by JMicron, Indilinx, Toshiba etc., but I doubt you can buy any of those today anywhere other than ebay anyhow. And I don't own a Indilinx Everest OCZ model ( and don't want one.)

I missed this reply too. You type too fast !!!!


I also +1 all this.

They are all fast and SSD is wonderful.

Not including an SSD in any new build is an epic mistake.

Not amount of penny pinching- budget contraints- or really any reason will ever sway this opinion.

I am decisively in the opinion it's unacceptable not to include an SSD for any reason. I will never own, operate, use- or condone using a HDD for an OS installation now or forever.

There is simply no good reason to do it.

If your on a budget and already own a HDD then sell it on ebay- you get big bucks for HDD's today used- and buy a SSD for $60.

If you can't sell the HDD because it's larger sized and you need the storage (think 1TB+ sized drives) then keep it- and just buy a SSD.

Either way - you need the storage that is it's own animal and realistically you will never have enough storage and will be adding in the future anyways. You can't make that argument against not using SSD.

What is your best drive you think? Performance wise real world?

The Intel you just bought ? Samsung 830 ?
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post #476 of 835
6/1/12 at 3:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zon2020 View Post

I have a Mushkin Enhanced Callisto Deluxe 120GB. Have been using it for several months. Works just fine.

With a few exceptions (Intel, Samsung and Plextor specifically), I don't worry much about brands for SSDs. I pay attention to the controller used. Most of these companies are just buying NAND and a controller and putting it in a container. But frankly I don't think I've ever had a bad Mushkin item.

Is there a difference between the Callisto and the Chronos? Chronos is 10 bucks cheaper.
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post #477 of 835
6/1/12 at 4:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by azula View Post

Is there a difference between the Callisto and the Chronos? Chronos is 10 bucks cheaper.

The Chronos is the SF2281 based SATA III. The Callisto is SATA II. Yeah, I know, it seems backwards, but it's just marketing.

And I mistyped above, I have an Enhanced Callisto Deluxe, not a chronos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

What is your best drive you think? Performance wise real world?

The Intel you just bought ? Samsung 830 ?


No real answer to this. I'm partial to the Plextors, but that's probably because the 64gb M2S was my "first love." But they have worked great, they're fast, they've never needed a firmware update, and Plextor provides a 3.5" bracket, cloning software, and a 5 year warranty. What's not to like?

But the Samsungs are also great, and they have a great software tool for making sure all the Windows settings are right which is really useful if you clone rather than fresh install.

The Mushkin is in my old Pentium D SFF Optiplex that I use as an htpc on a second system, mostly for streaming video. 2.8ghz Pent D, 3GB of DDR2, a Radeon 5450, W7, and the Mushkin SSD and it is fabulous. It's so fast at what I use it for you'd think it's an i5. SSDs can really give life to old pcs.

I haven't really used the Intel or Sandisk enough yet to have any impression.

Basically, they are all fast, and they all work. SATA II or III, Samsung Marvell or Sandforce,64-180.

Tom's Hardware has it pegged. Don't worry about which one you get, just get one, any one.
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post #478 of 835
6/1/12 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by azula View Post

Is there a difference between the Callisto and the Chronos? Chronos is 10 bucks cheaper.

Tom's hardware recommends the Chronos Deluxe as the best drive for $90 (90GB size)

and also the 120GB as the best value in the 120GB size and price area.

Quote:


As the lowest priced 120 GB Toggle-mode SF-22xx-based SSD, we're recommending Mushkin's 120 GB Enhanced Chronos Deluxe for those who want performance and capacity. As we said, 90 GB is a floor of sorts for getting an operating system and important apps onto an SSD. But 120 GB provides enough space to add personal files and big game installs to the mix.

It's very much identical to the Vertex3 which was the previous recommendation in this category. Price drops on the Mushkin bumped it since it's based on value.

But- I have seen great deals on both. Both have second generation Sandforce 22xx controlers.

Note: They claim 90GB is the baseline size for an OS. I agree.

$99 for a 120GB is the sweet spot today for SSD purchasing.

I think Callisto is Sata II and CHRONOS is SATAIII ???

The CHRONOS is better and $10 cheaper... seems like a no brainer

$89 for a 120GB. No rebates either.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...E20-226-152-TS
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post #479 of 835
6/1/12 at 9:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

We can thank OCZ for these price drops. Their pricing is extremely aggressive.

So far I have a PSU and motherboard for my next HTPC, but the build does not have to be completed until mid to late summer. For now I am very much enjoying watching the SSD prices fall. Do you guys think prices will even out soon or possibly tick up slightly if the price war ends? Or is the genie out of the bottle and prices will continue on a downward trend - so I should wait to buy the SSD as one of the last components for my build? (This is all assuming there is no crazy flood of the SSD factories prior to my purchase, lol.)
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post #480 of 835
6/1/12 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post

Totally agree with you on all this.

I just think that $49 is good for a budget build. $89 while still cheap is $40 more. You can basically buy two G620's for that price.

$89 is a great deal and your getting sucked in on the "value" since it's does not seem expensive to you...

But- reality is for a budget build the G620 is enough. And if you need more- then get a cheap i5.

I think we can all agree the current level of performance of the SANDY and IVY is amazing and totally capable and great values.

What is your opinion on AMD? A6-3500 for example? $60 in microcenter.
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