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Complete 3d setup for 50 viewers

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Hi eveyone,

We'd like to replace our old Epson EMP-S1 3LCD projector (1200 lumens) to join the 3d experience.
We have a large room with a 162x216 ceiling recessed screen and we will also install the new projector on the ceiling.

Please advice what hardware we should get in our case.

Thanks in advance,
Barry
post #2 of 24
With that many viewers I would look at a dual projection setup. It may be complicated to keep the projectors aligned with them being ceiling mounted, but you will be rewarded by being able to use cheap passive glasses and one of the best 3D images that is bright and ghost free.

What is your budget? Are you going to use your current screen, if so what size is it and what gain?

I would get two Panasonic AR100U projectors with the Omega 3D kit, yes a single 3D projector would be much easier but you would also have to spend at least $2500 just to buy everyone glasses and you will have to charge them all to make sure no one has a pair that dies during a movie.
post #3 of 24
Thread Starter 
Thank you for your prompt reply.

I don't have any details about our old screen and if necessary we could also replace it. The number of users actually will be around 30 people. Do you still suggest two Panasonic projectors? Can you give me more information about the Omega 3D kit?
post #4 of 24
Let me know your estimated budget and what size screen you would like to use and I can help you out.

The Omega 3D kit includes two filters that work by dividing the color spectrum so that each eye sees certain wavelengths, if you have ever been to a Dolby 3D movie it is very similar filter tech. The glasses will be much less expensive and will not need batteries or recharging because they are passive.

If it were me I would buy two AR100U, you may still be able to get them for $1000 each. Pair it with a 110in High Power screen with 2.4 gain to give a bright 3D image (this will depend on your seating because you lose the gain if your audience is sitting off axis to the screen) If you are interested and your budget will allow a setup like this I can tell you everything you will need, if you include the price of a new screen you will be looking at at least $3000 if you buy 1080p projectors. you may be able to find a pair of Optoma HD20 projectors for as low as $500 each. When you aren't doing 3D you will only need to use one projector and will be able to alternate usage to save lamp life.
post #5 of 24
I would go with a single passive setup much easier to deal with than dual.
post #6 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis3845 View Post

I would go with a single passive setup much easier to deal with than dual.

That requires a silver screen, which is not something you want to use with 2D, it also has more ghosting and causes eye strain for some due to flickering. that is assuming you mean using a modulator, I doubt you are suggesting them but a $15000 LG passive projector. I just can't recommend someone sacrifice the viewing experience to avoid a few mins of setup.
post #7 of 24
Thread Starter 
I'm collecting all the info:

1) Two AR100U: http: // w w w. bhphotovideo. c o m /c/product/828746-REG/Panasonic_PT_AR100U_PT_AR100U_Full_HD_Projector.html

2) Do they sell ceiling mounting for two projectors stack on top of each other?

3) 110" High Power screen with 2.4 gain: http: // www .amazon. c o m /Da-Lite-Recessed-Diagonal-Boardroom-Electric/dp/B000293SV2

4) Omega 3D kit: I can't find it anywhere online. Is the kit including passive glasses?

5) Video Cable: Should I run a video cable (VGA?, HDMI?) or use my old wireless VGA transmitter? Would a VGA cable lose quality on a 3D signal? I'm also gonna need to use one projector for presentations with laptops with VGA port.

6) What kind of player should I buy? Any Blue-ray DVD player?
post #8 of 24
Before you start on such a project, I wonder how many people can a 110" screen accommodate for 3D.
From my testing, the 3D picture falls apart very quickly when viewed from outside the screen area. Having people on the side of the picture is in my opinion not suitable at all.
Same problem with using high gain screens, which usually have narrow view angles.

If also you intend to use this setup for a party (sports/movie/game/...) with people scattered around the room, you might reconsider (both the scope of the 3D project and the high gain screen)
I just can't imagine 25 people watching 3D simultaneously in front of such a small screen, unless you pack people tight like sardines and have multiple rows of seats.

If you're still going for it, then I'd recommend a passive setup, dual-projectors is a bit complicated but it's what gives the best picture, gives a great design flexibility and isn't that expensive (considering you are aiming for 25 people).
I have been using a polarised dual projectors system for 1,5 year, and it's my current benchmark but the silver-screen requirement (high gain, small viewing angle, a significant amount of visible grain structure, and very fragile). I am testing the Omega filter system at the moment, and Omega is winning my heart. There's just one annoying thing with the Omega system : it has youth issues. The filter kit is still kind of a "beta" program. As more people test them, we discover issues with certain types of projectors. My Epson LCD projectors for example have colour problems due to the light spectrum being outputted (3-LCD projectors with UHE/UHP lamp) being different from the reference projectors the filters were designed for (DLP projectors with Xenon lamp).
The guys at Omega are quite reactive though and are working an a modified filter which would be better suited for LCD projectors, however I am sceptical and am waiting to see the updated filters before acknowledging the Omega system as a good consumer choice. (and they have to provide other glasses than their current "theme park" glasses design, if they want to succeed in the home, because they're REALLY dorky)

If you would like to learn more about the Omega filters, you should head to the "ultimate 3D projection" thread http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1280393
Where current users share their findings and an Omega Optical employee reads our feed back and answers questions.

Regarding your other questions :
1 - 2 - 3 ) I don't know I'm not up to date with those.

4) The Omega kit can currently only be bought on ebay, you can find a link on Omega's video presentation http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ziuTZQx7dg

5) You'll need two separate inputs, and both should support 1080p if you want to get the best of your projectors. A single VGA link won't be enough. Also you should know that 3D is filled with copy protection systems which usually mandate Hdmi transmission.
I haven't tested wireless Hdmi devices, but I'd rather stick with proper cables.
Also the number of cables or wireless transmitters will depend on what type of source you want to use.

6) There are two options :
-A computer with a suitable graphics card and lots of software (and a BluRay drive if you want to watch BluRay 3D discs) = 2 cables all the way from the computer to the projectors
-An Hdmi 1.4 3D source (BluRay 3D player, PlayStation 3, etc...) with a series of converters to split the single 3D Hdmi 1.4 stream into two two usual Hdmi1.3 video streams running in separate cables. Typically one Hdmi 1.4 compatible splitter/cloning device and two Optoma 3DXL converters. = 1 cable from the source to the splitter + 2 cables from splitter to converters + 2 cables from converters to projectors (not including power supply)

The computer is the most flexible system and can reach resolution and framerates higher than anything else (it's the only way to do games at 1080p+60Hz), but it's very complicated to get everything running (very few of the easy "3D" ready software supports dual-projectors, you have to hack most things to make it work).
If you're not interested in PC games, I recommend you go for the other route.
post #9 of 24
Here is the ebay link to the omega kithttp://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Omega-Complete-Kit-Dual-Projectors-including-5-pairs-Glasses-/310392361228?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4844d3910c
I'm not sure if you would need the small kit for $350 or large kit for large projectors that's $850, both of them come with glasses, 5 for the small kit and 10 for the large kit and extra glasses are $20 each.
You must use a computer with a high end graphics card to drive these and the projectors are stacked on each other they tell you how to build a mount in the kit. Here is the link for the omega kit demo on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ziuTZQx7dg
This is not your only option you could also do dual passive polarazation setup using two optoma 3d-xl's and 2 projectors without having to use a computer.
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis3845 View Post

Here is the ebay link to the omega kithttp://www.ebay.com/itm/3D-Omega-Complete-Kit-Dual-Projectors-including-5-pairs-Glasses-/310392361228?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4844d3910c
I'm not sure if you would need the small kit for $350 or large kit for large projectors that's $850, both of them come with glasses, 5 for the small kit and 10 for the large kit and extra glasses are $20 each.
You must use a computer with a high end graphics card to drive these and the projectors are stacked on each other they tell you how to build a mount in the kit. Here is the link for the omega kit demo on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ziuTZQx7dg
This is not your only option you could also do dual passive polarazation setup using two optoma 3d-xl's and 2 projectors without having to use a computer.

False, these can be used with 3dxl boxes the same way as polarizers, the difference being omega performs better and doesn't require a silver screen. The whole system is a task but IMHO is the best 3d for the price. If you want you can message me your phone number and I can describe everything to you so that u know exactly what you are getting into and can make a decision
post #11 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

False, these can be used with 3dxl boxes the same way as polarizers, the difference being omega performs better and doesn't require a silver screen. The whole system is a task but IMHO is the best 3d for the price. If you want you can message me your phone number and I can describe everything to you so that u know exactly what you are getting into and can make a decision

yes I understand this, I was just saying he could use 2 3dxl boxes to do polarized passive which would be alot cheaper than the omega kit and the glasses would be dirt cheap also instead of $20 each.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by lewis3845 View Post

yes I understand this, I was just saying he could use 2 3dxl boxes to do polarized passive which would be alot cheaper than the omega kit and the glasses would be dirt cheap also instead of $20 each.

The problem is that requires a silver screen, which usually does not do well with 2D and in my opinion hurts 3D. Good polarizing filters can also run up to $1000. Having tried both I would only go polarized if I were using JVC projectors that are internally polarized and matching them with filters that allow up to 80% transmittance, its the brightest solution possible but still requires a silver screen and can have a little ghosting.
post #13 of 24
sorry for hijacking this thread, but i am also looking for a 3D theater solution for 50 people, the room size is 20'x30' with ceiling height of 20'. budget is around 10,000$ but can be stretched more. the glasses used have to be cheap as i do no expect that people will refund them.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by joyceanblue View Post

sorry for hijacking this thread, but i am also looking for a 3D theater solution for 50 people, the room size is 20'x30' with ceiling height of 20'. budget is around 10,000$ but can be stretched more. the glasses used have to be cheap as i do no expect that people will refund them.

How long do you have to wait? The RED projector should meet your needs but it won't be out until the end of the year at the earliest
post #15 of 24
i can not wait that long, i need something as soon as possible. the budget can be extended if there are available solutions.
p.s. what would be the good screen size for 50 people?
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by joyceanblue View Post

the glasses used have to be cheap as i do no expect that people will refund them.

You need to define exactly how "cheap" you want the glasses to be. And how do you believe your guests will behave.
If you expect your guests to steal the glasses, then your only solution would be throw-away polarised glasses. Prices range from a couple cents per unit for the cheapest cardboard framed glasses to a couple dollars for RealD style plastic framed glasses.
If the only thing you fear is breaking the glasses by falling on the ground or sitting on them, then the Omega glasses should resist quite well. I Don't know their unit price though since they currently only sell kits (projector filters + 5 pairs of glasses) as part of their beta-testing program. You might want to contact them directly for a 50 unit package.
post #17 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackShark View Post

You need to define exactly how "cheap" you want the glasses to be. And how do you believe your guests will behave.
If you expect your guests to steal the glasses, then your only solution would be throw-away polarised glasses. Prices range from a couple cents per unit for the cheapest cardboard framed glasses to a couple dollars for RealD style plastic framed glasses.
If the only thing you fear is breaking the glasses by falling on the ground or sitting on them, then the Omega glasses should resist quite well. I Don't know their unit price though since they currently only sell kits (projector filters + 5 pairs of glasses) as part of their beta-testing program. You might want to contact them directly for a 50 unit package.

id very much prefer the throwaway glasses that cost couple of cents.
any idea on suitable screen size?
post #18 of 24
I don't know how big 50 people means, I never have that many people in my home, but I can give you hints to find that out yourself.

The most important factor will be how much space do these 50 people take : you need to know how wide the seats will be and how much leg room you want to give your guests, and then find out how to seat all of them (how many seats per row and how many rows).

Typically, you'd want the biggest screen your projectors can light up properly. But there are limitations because the bigger the screen, the less space is available in the room to sit your guests. Let me explain...

Since you want to use polarised glasses (the only 3D technology that allows cheap throw-away glasses). You'll have to use a silverscreen.
A traditional screen which looks silver-ish won't do ! You need a screen with actual metallic elements designed specifically for polarised 3D in order to get good L/R extinction ratios (reduce crosstalk).

Silverscreens are typically 2.0~3.0 gain and highly directive with a half-gain angle of 20° on average.
These screens do create a hot-spot. In order to avoid the nastiest part of the hot-spotting, you cannot sit your guests outside of that 20° viewing angle (the combined area of both angles starting from each side of the screen). The bigger the screen, the farther back your guests will have to sit to avoid the obvious hot-spotting. I guess your screen will be flat, if your screen is curved, it increases the viewing angle, but it's much more expensive.

An other issue of silverscreens is that they have a visible texture due to the metallic flakes in the coating : if you're seating close to the screen you'll be seeing sparkles. From my experience with my current silverscreen, the sparkles are more visible in 2D than in 3D (thanks to your eyes converging at a different depth from the location of the sparkles), also the sparkles are the most visible on bright pictures, it's more or less annoying depending on the content you show. I don't watch 2D movies on my screen so I can only relate to it's effect on 3D content.
For 3D viewing 3 metres (10feet) is the absolute minimum viewing distance below which the sparkles produce unacceptable interference, the sparkles progressively dissolve in the picture when viewing from farther, at 5 metres (15feet) it starts to blend in, it's almost good, but you can still see it if you're looking for it.
post #19 of 24
Good thread. for an install of this size Omega will sell a set of 50+ glasses and be competitive. Dolby plastic glasses are ~12$US i hear in volume for cinemas. the extra glasses listed on Ebay for Omega are 20$ but you cant get Dolby projecton filters. we may be able to do better on price. message me with contact info and i can get it set if you like.
look at the last page or so on the ultimate 3D thread and youll see an internally mounted set of Omega filters in two Barco projectors. thats what i would do, internally mounted fitlers in the right location to minimize F# or angles gives the best results.
post #20 of 24
thanks for the valuable inputs BlackShark and motorman45. I am in discussion with my partner, I will get back once something gets finalized.
regards
post #21 of 24
Hi
any progress on getting a 50 viewer system together ?
post #22 of 24
I can offer a 50 person 3D set with the Omega 3D system for $1230 for use with home theater uhp DLP projectors or for larger xenon based projectors $1600. anyone interested just pm me .
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcguire525 View Post

The problem is that requires a silver screen, which usually does not do well with 2D and in my opinion hurts 3D. Good polarizing filters can also run up to $1000.

Silver screen hurts 3D? In my opinion it's just the opposite. Passive with silver screen is excellent. Omega (Dolby) system cannot be compared to passive & silver screen or active systems concerning colo(u)rs. Passive with silver screen is not so expensive. Very good screens can be get for few hundreds of USD/EUR. I am using LARGE plastic filters which are, in my experience, better (excellent extinction of ghosting) than some smaller glass filters and they cost next to nothing.

Otherwise, Omega system is very good when wanting to project 3D content without bringing with you (huge) silver screen.
post #24 of 24
One place a white screen has an big advantage is when you want it portable. silver screens do not roll up well repeatedly. also there are no color issues when using the right projector with the omega filters, i do agree though that inexpensive linear polarizing setups are good for some but the extiction is far from being as good as the omega system.
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