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Just Modernized; Now Disappointed?

post #1 of 99
4/15/12 at 9:28pm
Thread Starter 
In these past few months, I have aquired components for a new home theater system. My old stereo (yes I am old) which I was running up till a few months ago, consisted of a Luxman R1050 receiver and two Ohm C2 speakers.

I just bought a low end Yamaha RX-A8000, two Polk Monitor 70's Series II for front speakers, one Polk Cs2 Series 2 for a center speaker, and two Polk Monitor 60's series II for rear speakers and a Polk CSW10 for a subwoofer. I also got a Samsung 60" UN60D6400 HDTV.


I just now wired the speakers to the Yamaha and turned the Yamaha to FM reception. I haven't hooked up the subwoofer yet. It is late, so I did not turn the volume up too much, nor have I figured out too many of the settings for the Yamaha. The Yamaha was playing FM through the two front Monitor 70's. As far as I can tell, the audio through the Monitor 70's has almost no bass compared to the Ohm C2's and the Luxman, and the midrange and imaging sounds flat and lifeless.

Am I doing something wrong here? Or is this new stuff junk??
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post #2 of 99
4/15/12 at 9:34pm
try running the ypao auto set up on the yammie.
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post #3 of 99
4/15/12 at 9:42pm
RX-A8000? That sounds more like a future top of the line from Yamaha....

Must be an A800. :-)

Sounds like you need some quality time with the manual and GUI. :-)

- Many a wrong setting for your current config could cause what you described.

Cheers
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post #4 of 99
4/15/12 at 9:43pm
Do you mainly listen to FM radio? Also I believe your Ohm C2 speakers, sold for
around $695 a pair - which to me says, that they are not budget friendly speakers.

I for one, will not judge speakers by the sound of FM radio.
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post #5 of 99
4/15/12 at 9:46pm
Thread Starter 
I will get to that tomorrow. I'm a software engineer and an electrical engineer and I'm having trouble figuring out the controls on the Yamaha.

I realize the Yamaha has much lower audio power output. I looked at the power consumption specs for the Yamaha power supply and compared it to what they're rating for power to each speaker. Someone is using fanatasy power ratings for the audio output.

The bloody Luxman weighs 4 times the weight of the Yamaha.

The Samsung does not want to play through the Yamaha, even though it says it is doing it with anynet...

I also have to figure out if I need feed the tivo, bluray, roku etc directly into the yamaha then feed the yamaha only into the hdtv. But that is for another forum area......
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post #6 of 99
4/15/12 at 9:55pm
Thread Starter 
Sorry, it is an RX-A800. I am exhausted. Was a pain putting the wire for the rears through the floor into the cellar then back up again behind the couch.

The Yamaha doesn't even seem to indicate that it is picking up stereo, not sure. Am using rabbit ears for the FM. Yamaha reviews say the fm tuner is poor.


Fm was the only thing I could get running quickly to try to see what this setup sounds like.


Trust me, the FM from the Luxman and the Ohm's makes the Polks and Yamaha sound like I'm getting audio from a 3 inch speaker inside a one transistor radio. Well, I'm dating myself again, but you get the idea....
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post #7 of 99
4/15/12 at 10:25pm
As already mentioned you cant really judge anything until you properly configure your setup. The gui is really very simple, hook up and hdmi cable from the receivers out to your tv and hit the "on screen" button on the remote. YPAO simply requires you to plug the mic into the front of the receiver (marked ypao mic) and hit start. Make sure the sound program setting is set to "decode" and not one of the gimicky sound modes like "hall".

However, the amp section is pretty weak, and those monitor 70s are large speakers. I highly doubt the impedance is a steady 8 ohms with a 4 woofer 2.5 way. I'm not a believer in high end amps making a huge difference, but when I purchased a $360 pro amp to run my front 3 channels I noticed an immediate improvement in sound quality. The amp simply needs to be able to cleanly deliver the power the speaker requires, and I dont think the yamaha (or any cheap receiver) does.
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post #8 of 99
4/16/12 at 5:15am
You said you did not hookup the subwoofer yet. Are you comparing the old system with the sub connected to the new system without it connected? If so, that would easily explain why you have much less bass on the new system.
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post #9 of 99
4/16/12 at 5:19am
Thread Starter 
Jay,

Thanks. I have to finish a cabinet I'm going to use to hold the center speaker in the front middle of the room, before I run the calibration. I also am building some small stands for the rear Monitor 60's to raise them a little, and I need to get them in place before I can move the couch back in place and be able to position the YPAO mike in the right place.

I guess the easiest thing to do would be to substitute the Ohm C2's for the front Monitor 70's and see what happens (I dragged, I mean lifted them upstairs, but I can put them back).

The very least thing I'm hearing is almost no bass from the Monitor 70's with the Yamaha. Compared to the Luxman and C2's it is night and day, I mean like wow. With the Luxman and C2's I'm used to a wall of sound with oomph even a low volumes. The mids sound weak on the 70's too. Since I'm only running the front speakers, I would expect the Yamaha to deliver a reasonable amount of power to them.

If I remember correctly, the Luxman is only 50 watts per channel.

Seriously, the Yamaha and 70's sound awful.

Later today I will try to connect the C2's in place of the front monitors and see what happens. I bought the 70's assuming they would be reasonable compared to the C2's.

I have a feeling I should have tried to get another used pair of C2's for the rears and not wasted all that money on the Monitor 70's and 60's. But honestly I didn't think they would be that bad.....
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post #10 of 99
4/16/12 at 5:43am
Since you have not properly set up the system yet, I would suggest using the "Pure Direct" mode (if not doing so already), it should be the closest to your old system for 2 channel playback comparison. (excluding sound of old speakers)
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post #11 of 99
4/16/12 at 6:19am
My guess is that, by default, the speakers are set to small. With the sub not connected, the bass is simply filtered out. Try some sort of direct mode, or make sure that the speaker "setting" on the receiver is large.
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post #12 of 99
4/16/12 at 6:31am
Yes, that is why I suggested "Pure Direct" above, there will be no processing of any kind and the speakers will be playing full range.

This mainly applies to 2 channel sources, as it's more complicated if a DD or DTS signal is the source.

Read the manual and play with it.
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post #13 of 99
4/16/12 at 7:32am
First you need to make sure on the receiver your speakers are not set to small. If they are change that then give it another try. IF the Yamaha has enough power for the monitor 70's I would guess that is your problem. Also i would make sure to get a better audio source than the radio, I would suggest some sort of cd, dvd, or blu-ray player connected through a digital connection.

It seems that these speakers should have plenty of bass given proper setup and power.
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post #14 of 99
4/16/12 at 7:38am
If it were me I would set all the speakers to small and cross them over at either 60 or 80hz. Those polks aren't bad speakers but they are entry level home theater speakers. You will probably find that sub lacking also.
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post #15 of 99
4/16/12 at 7:50am
Thread Starter 
I just tried "Pure Direct", it sounds even worse!!!
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post #16 of 99
4/16/12 at 8:03am
Thread Starter 
I just substituted one of the C2's. It still sounds awful, no bass even from the C2. There is definitely something going on with the receiver.
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post #17 of 99
4/16/12 at 8:14am
Have you checked to see if the speakers are set to large on the receiver?
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post #18 of 99
4/16/12 at 8:37am
Perhaps you should try the Luxman with the Polks.

I never heard the Polks but I have a Yamaha 765. It does not sound like much if the eq is not set. I hope you get this worked out.
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post #19 of 99
4/16/12 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

Have you checked to see if the speakers are set to large on the receiver?

+1

This all sounds like a configuration issue to me.
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post #20 of 99
4/16/12 at 9:39am
Thread Starter 
The tech guy was not much help. Is sending it to second level support, have to wait for a callback.

I also tried feeding in sound from my Sony CD carousel player which has an analog rca output. The Cd sounds better, but is still missing mids and low punch.


******MOST importantly, with either the fm radio input or the CD player input, and using straight mode coupling (direct will not allow use of tone controls) I tried adjusting the bass +6db up or -6db low, but did not hear any difference in the sound. I tried the same for the treble, still no change....

The tech was trying to insist that I needed to use 7.1 mode with my 5.1 speakers to adequately test the sound. He was nuts. If I can't get the thing to sound reasonable with 2 speaker stereo, why do I want to fool with 5.1
He was also telling me I needed to use a digital source, but seemed not that sharp to realize that a digital source is simply an analog source sampled and digitized.

I'm doing an A-B comparison between the Lux and the Yamaha with two channels with an FM source or cd analog source. Right now I don't care about the extra clarity of a digitally encoded source.
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post #21 of 99
4/16/12 at 10:18am
Thread Starter 
Found the setup menu. Still have not attached the subwoofer, but turning the subwoofer output on allows you to select extra bass.

However, adjusting the bass and treble controls seem to be questionable as to whether they are actually changing anything.

The speakers sound somewhat better now, but there is still a ways to go.

Puzzling why the 1st level tech did not discuss this. I can't do a YPAO calibration till I get the center speaker cabinet done, but the rears on stands and put the couch and furniture back where it is supposed to be.

Will wait for the 2nd level yamaha support to call me.
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post #22 of 99
4/16/12 at 10:24am
Have you checked to see if the speakers are set to large yet?
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post #23 of 99
4/16/12 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestek View Post

The tech guy was not much help. Is sending it to second level support, have to wait for a callback.

I also tried feeding in sound from my Sony CD carousel player which has an analog rca output. The Cd sounds better, but is still missing mids and low punch.


******MOST importantly, with either the fm radio input or the CD player input, and using straight mode coupling (direct will not allow use of tone controls) I tried adjusting the bass +6db up or -6db low, but did not hear any difference in the sound. I tried the same for the treble, still no change....

strait mode coupling?

Quote:


The tech was trying to insist that I needed to use 7.1 mode with my 5.1 speakers to adequately test the sound. He was nuts. If I can't get the thing to sound reasonable with 2 speaker stereo, why do I want to fool with 5.1

well if you are planning to use a sub while listening to stereo sources then setting up 2 channel stereo is useless.

Quote:


He was also telling me I needed to use a digital source, but seemed not that sharp to realize that a digital source is simply an analog source sampled and digitized.

I am not even sure what you are talking about here. I am assuming by digital source he was saying you should use a digital connection from the cd player to the receiver? If so all that changes is using the DAC's from the CD player to using the DAC's from the receiver.

CD's are digital sources, if you use analog outputs on your cd player it converts the digital data from the cd to analog then sends it to a receiver which takes the analog source and amplifies it. If you use the digital output on the CD player it keeps the data from the CD digital to the receiver then the receiver converts it to analog and then amplifies it.



Quote:


I'm doing an A-B comparison between the Lux and the Yamaha with two channels with an FM source or cd analog source. Right now I don't care about the extra clarity of a digitally encoded source.

CD's are digital, digital is converted to analog ether at the cd player or at the receiver. Just depends on how you hook it up.
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post #24 of 99
4/16/12 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestek View Post

Found the setup menu. Still have not attached the subwoofer, but turning the subwoofer output on allows you to select extra bass.

However, adjusting the bass and treble controls seem to be questionable as to whether they are actually changing anything.

The speakers sound somewhat better now, but there is still a ways to go.

Puzzling why the 1st level tech did not discuss this. I can't do a YPAO calibration till I get the center speaker cabinet done, but the rears on stands and put the couch and furniture back where it is supposed to be.

Will wait for the 2nd level yamaha support to call me.

Don't turn the subwoofer on on the receiver if you don't have it connected, especially if you haven't had a chance to change speaker size to large or small yet. Otherwise you may be loosing your bass to the sub that isn't even plugged in.

I will say it again make sure your speakers are set to large.
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post #25 of 99
4/16/12 at 11:01am
You can run ypao as many times as you like, and it only takes about 5 minutes. Place the mic in your seat and run it, there's no reason to wait, you can run it again tomorrow, and the next day, and 5 minutes after that, just run it!. Also, go into the manual setup menu, and make sure your front LR are set to large
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post #26 of 99
4/16/12 at 11:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkhorror View Post

Have you checked to see if the speakers are set to large yet?

Yes he said he set all speakers to large!

Once he hooks up the sub tho I don't think that's a good suggestion. The speakers will sound muddy and draw too much power from the receiver trying to push the lower hz. Why not let the sub handle the lows which is what it does best.
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post #27 of 99
4/16/12 at 11:55am
Get rid of those Model 70s Keep the OHM C2's as fronts.

In fact take back all the polk and get pioneer instead. Polk speakers have a Dry sound to them. Every Last one of them in every line. I heard a set from each range.

The only polk I really care for was made before I was born. polk SDA2.

2 channel sounds better than HT anyway.
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post #28 of 99
4/16/12 at 12:08pm
Would reading the instruction manual help?
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post #29 of 99
4/16/12 at 12:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OldCodger73 View Post

Would reading the instruction manual help?

My thoughts, exactly.
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post #30 of 99
4/16/12 at 12:37pm
Thread Starter 
I did set the fronts to large. Yes I will eventually be using the subwoofer. Right now I want to see if the receiver can feed the Polks or the C2's with a full frequency range and have them sound reasonably close to my old setup, so I can feel that technology has made progress in 30 years. Looks like that may not be true......

And you are probably right, I should use the C2's. I bought 5 Polks because they were fairly cheap at Newegg and I thought that having a 5 speaker matched set would work better. Now I see that was a mistake. (The poor C2's do need a cabinet veneer redo, as I did not keep the cabinet well. I did have the woofer foam changed in the C2's awhile ago, otherwise they work fine as the day I bought them, which was a summer's day at Tech HiFi in 1980)
I should see if I can pick up a pair of used C2's for the rears, but they are hard to come by at a reasonable price (was laid off in the fall, am trying to change careers right now, so money is tight).


And reading the instructions would help, except that there are probably 500 settings in the damn machine and being a savant or having prior experience with a late model Yamaha receive would help.

Yamaha has a Knowledge Base note on this:

http://faq.yamaha.com/us/en/article/...__u/5119/5973/



No Subwoofer output in 2 Channel Stereo when using Large front speakers.

Last Update: 04/08/2011

My Front Speakers are set to Large and there is no Bass output to the attached Subwoofer in 2 Channel Stereo mode. (The receiver would be functioning normally.) The incoming 2 Channel signals are sent to the front speakers and unless there is a .1 LFE Bass signal the sub will remain silient. If the listener desires more Bass the Extra Bass setting can be turned on in the Manual Setup Menu, Speaker Configuration. This allows the Front Channel low frequency to be output via the Subwoofer output and the Front Speakers simultaniously.

Extra Bass can be used to enhance the Bass signals in all sound modes and speaker setups. (2.1, 3.1,5.1 up to 7.1.) Just as long as the Front Speakers are set to Large and Subwoofer is set to Yes.

Please Note: If the option for Extra Bass is greyed out then your front speakers are not set to Large or the Sub Out is set to None/Front.
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