AVS › AVS Forum › A/V Control & Automation › Home Automation › Control 4 vs Crestron
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Control 4 vs Crestron - Page 2

post #31 of 57
4/26/12 at 3:55pm
I have been reading this thread and this part of the forum and I am trying to find out up to what square foot does Control 4 work and at what square footage does Crestron work ?
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #32 of 57
4/26/12 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by comptr View Post

I have been reading this thread and this part of the forum and I am trying to find out up to what square foot does Control 4 work and at what square footage does Crestron work ?

It's less about square foot (except for wireless devices), and more about what you're controlling. I can't speak for C4, but Crestron can work for pretty much anything, assuming it is properly engineered and programmed.
Reply
Reply
post #33 of 57
4/26/12 at 6:08pm
I personally think that Crestron is overpriced and their user interfaces unattractive, but that's just my opinion. I also think the marketplace is over saturated with bad programmers who have given custom home automation a bad rap over the years. That being said, obviously Crestron is more than capable of getting the job done. But if it were me I'd go with the C4, but I'd make darn sure I trusted the integrator more than anything. Most integrators are selling the same products (more or less) and it's the process and the implementation that can make or break it for home owners.
Reply
Reply
post #34 of 57
4/26/12 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cntp View Post

It's less about square foot (except for wireless devices), and more about what you're controlling. I can't speak for C4, but Crestron can work for pretty much anything, assuming it is properly engineered and programmed.

The main problem for me is budget I want to have whole house video distribution, whole house audio and hvac control. Prewire will not factor into my budget as I am looking at new built homes unless I can find a older home that fits my needs and budget. I also want the whole house video distribution to be via HDMI instead of component.
Reply
Reply
post #35 of 57
4/26/12 at 7:47pm
About 3 months ago we finished a house in the 8000sf range with Control4. 27 seperate audio zones. 8 HD video zones (HDBaseT HDMI via Atlona matrix). 5 T-stats. About 2 dozen light loads & more to come. Security, irrigation, & doorbell integration. 12 surveillance cams. Zero issues other than a C4 iPod dock with faulty power supply.
Reply
Reply
post #36 of 57
4/27/12 at 7:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post

I personally think that Crestron is overpriced and their user interfaces unattractive, but that's just my opinion. I also think the marketplace is over saturated with bad programmers who have given custom home automation a bad rap over the years. That being said, obviously Crestron is more than capable of getting the job done. But if it were me I'd go with the C4, but I'd make darn sure I trusted the integrator more than anything. Most integrators are selling the same products (more or less) and it's the process and the implementation that can make or break it for home owners.

I would add that automation gets a bad rap from bad custom installers as much as if not more than bad programmers.

All manufacturers will have a dog device they sell here or there, or put it to market too soon and let the clients and installers beta test it when it's sold as ready for market. All of them do it. But that's the exception, not the rule. A good installation company not only understands this but never forgets it.

The vast majority of times that a client is left unsatisfied or frustrated is because of the installing company, in design, sales, setting of expectations, or execution. Sometimes all of those reasons.

The manufacturers market to both dealers and the potential end users. They want you to buy their boxes. They want to influence you by building their brand awareness. My advice as somebody in the biz is to really focus on the installing company and their professionalism. That's the largest factor in influencing outcome and satisfaction of a project. Good companies will focus more on selling you their service and dedication to the scope of the project, and less on selling you equipment, or this manufacturer or that manufacturer.

Manufacturers want installers to evangelize their products and sell them to the end user, just short of advocating for them. The good companies advocate for the client and act in their best interest, not the manufacturers. It's for this reason I shy away from using the term 'dealer.' I am not a dealer, I'm a systems contractor. I don't sell Crestron or C4, I design and install HA or audio/video systems. The fact that one may be C4 or Crestron is of secondary importance.

In the end, it's a whirling dervish to focus too much on which is better, C4 or Crestron. It's not paying attention to more important factors. Simple assessments such as 'C4 can, Crestron can, therefore Crestron overpriced' make good fodder for geeks like us on forums but its a somewhat simplistic notion that doesn't really address more important thoughts such as 'I need to do this/this/this, will this work and work well?' It's possible both will do x, and maybe one will do x better than the other. But extrapolate that evaluation 50 or 100 times when considering a project.

But it makes good forum fodder and occasionally makes a decent flame war, so carry on

As a side note, Crestron does not make user interfaces, programmers do. C4 does make its own user interface, so on that level its more consistent. In many cases, that may be a good thing or a benefit, especially to cost if the system is not too large or has too many features.
Reply
Reply
post #37 of 57
4/27/12 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cshepard View Post

About 3 months ago we finished a house in the 8000sf range with Control4. 27 seperate audio zones. 8 HD video zones (HDBaseT HDMI via Atlona matrix). 5 T-stats. About 2 dozen light loads & more to come. Security, irrigation, & doorbell integration. 12 surveillance cams. Zero issues other than a C4 iPod dock with faulty power supply.

I'm finishing up a 9,500sf home with a smaller system, 12 zones of Crestron as audio only with a surround sound/video wall. Apart from a custom UI to make video wall control easy, C4 could have done this project just as well.

Square footage doesn't mean much, it's the size of and complexity of the systems and various sub systems which create deciding factors.
Reply
Reply
post #38 of 57
4/27/12 at 8:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa View Post

I would add that automation gets a bad rap from bad custom installers as much as if not more than bad programmers.

Agreed, and that's essentially what I was trying to say.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bigpapa View Post

As a side note, Crestron does not make user interfaces, programmers do. C4 does make its own user interface, so on that level its more consistent. In many cases, that may be a good thing or a benefit, especially to cost if the system is not too large or has too many features.

I was actually talking about the physical devices themselves, not the GUI.
Reply
Reply
post #39 of 57
4/27/12 at 11:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post

I was actually talking about the physical devices themselves, not the GUI.

To each his own I guess, I find the physical devices very attractive (most recent products anyway, there are defiantly some old ones that needed help!)
Reply
Reply
post #40 of 57
4/27/12 at 11:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddave12000 View Post

I was actually talking about the physical devices themselves, not the GUI.

Ha, well, I'm not sure either wins out by too much. Older Crestron panels were clunky, APAD's look like Home Depot. AMX's 8400 WiFi TP's are big and heavy. C4's first 7" Wireless TP was a dog, but the new 5-10" inwalls look pretty clean.

All lines are getting slicker. They got nothing on iPads, but they're closing the gap.
Reply
Reply
post #41 of 57
5/3/12 at 1:47am
Things cost what they cost. If your control4 quote is less than your crestron quote i would wager that the two systems being quoted are different.

Speakers, TVs, Wire, Blu-ray players, racks, TV mounts, patch cables, HDMI cables etc...these items will be exactly the same in both systems. The difference between the systems will be the control processor, AV switchers and various black boxes to make the system work.

Create a feature list and get an apples to apples quote from the Crestron/C4 dealer and see what the differences are. "30-40% difference" from a meeting in the demo room sounds a whole lot like they are trying to convince you to choose C4 over Crestron. It simply isnt possible and i challenge anyone to prove me wrong. (dont bother showing me remote+processor costs. I am talking about a system that would work in the 9000 sqft project from the OP)

Programming costs are typically higher for Crestron because there isnt a boxed set of widgets or a fixed GUI. Your intercom doesnt have to operate exactly the way it does out of the box with crestron (for example). With C4 it does. Control4 does what it does. Crestron does what you want it to do.

To many people these differences in feature set are not worth the additional cost. To some these differences are as important as purchasing a Cadillac vs a Chevy or a Lexus over a Toyota. At the end of the day both systems can be used for automation and audio video distribution. As stated above there are pros and cons with each platform. The one thing i can guarantee after being in this industry for 18 years. The MOST IMPORTANT thing you can do for your family and your 9000 sq ft house is to choose the right integrator.

Ask for portfolio photos to see examples of their work. Ask for examples of the documentation for the wiring and component connections that they will generate for your home. Ask to tour their recently completed project/s and look at the rack wiring. Install look neat? Anyone can make a TV look nice...look behind the TV and see how the wiring looks. Companies who neatly tie up the hidden stuff are putting more spit and polish into everything else. This is what their wiring should look like http://wiremunky.com/?cat=8&paged=2 ... not like this http://www.vibrant.com/cable-messes.php .

Dont listen to the sales pitch (especially ones where dealers quote 30-40% difference on a system that hasnt even been planned yet). Ask them to prove to you that they can do what they say they can do. Provide them with a wish list and realistic budget and let them get to work.
Reply
Reply
post #42 of 57
5/3/12 at 5:04pm
Both are great although i'm not a Crestron dealer I have watched the installation and programming of their stuff and yes it is very customizable and there are more possibilities with it when it comes the GUI's being custom vs fixed. I personally love Control4. I've done some pretty large homes using C4 and the only issues ive had were due to netowkring equipment (cheap PoE switches and routers) also had some issues updating one of the C4 speakerpoints but i figured it out and it wasn't the end of the world. Like the post above mine says, the most important thing you can do is choose the right integrator, one that will know where costs can and definitely cannot be cut. If designed and planned out properly i dont think there is a limit on square footage (within reason of course) in regards to both systems. The Aria in Vegas uses C4 in its suites however im not sure if its one system or split by units/floors/sections, I'm actually curious. Im not here to push C4 but im very happy I became a dealer and its the best system I've worked with in our 25 years in the field.
Reply
Reply
post #43 of 57
6/29/12 at 8:34am
I'm interested to know who the Crestron dealer is with a bad showroom program/design?
Please message me off the forum - qualityeject@yahoo.co.uk.
Reply
Reply
post #44 of 57
7/6/12 at 4:20am
I'm just a noob here but I stayed at the Aria City Center in Las Vegas and their entire hotel was wired with Control4. I'm pretty sure that hotel is larger than 9000sq/f.
Reply
Reply
post #45 of 57
7/6/12 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MMMorish View Post

I'm just a noob here but I stayed at the Aria City Center in Las Vegas and their entire hotel was wired with Control4. I'm pretty sure that hotel is larger than 9000sq/f.

The guest suites at Aria all have Control4 systems that basically stand alone, so it's more appropriate to think of the system as 4000 x 500sq/ft as it includes ONLY the guest suites. The remainder of the hotel (front-of-house, back-of-house, convention and meeting spaces, casino, etc.) is integrated with Crestron and their RoomView facility management platform.
Reply
Reply
post #46 of 57
9/23/12 at 8:38pm
I am wondering which system you decided to go with? I am also deciding b/w C4 and Crestron for a 9k sq foot new construction home and have similar concerns to you. Would love to hear how you ended up and if you are happy with the outcome? Thank you!
Reply
Reply
post #47 of 57
11/9/12 at 7:51am
A friend of mine went with Crestron for his 10,000 square foot house. He is very pleased with his after 3 years of very few issues.

I, on the other hand, went with Control4 in my 11,000 square foot house. After spending over $100,000 on the products and installation, I've had no more than 3 months at a time without issues.

Based only on this knowledge, I recommend Crestron...
Reply
Reply
post #48 of 57
11/14/12 at 7:50pm
At RSI, we are dealers for Control4, Savant, Crestron and AMX. Here's a quick write up we did on the pros and cons of Savant vs. Control4. I would put Crestron in the same category as Savant.

http://www.residentialsystemsinc.com/control4-vs-savant-for-todays-smart-home/

Travis Leo
Reply
Reply
post #49 of 57
11/18/12 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travisleo View Post

At RSI, we are dealers for Control4, Savant, Crestron and AMX. Here's a quick write up we did on the pros and cons of Savant vs. Control4. I would put Crestron in the same category as Savant.

Travis Leo
Likewise, our company is a dealer for Crestron, AMX, Savant, and Elon G. Yet, our experience is so different than yours. To wit, you start your write up with:

'At Residential Systems, Inc. one of the most common questions our clients ask us is “What are the major differences between Control4 and Savant and which should I use in my house?”

Brand awareness of control systems is next to zero in our customer base and I think in general. The only exception is Crestron which usually comes in the form of dissatisfaction from a previous install. The reason for this is mostly due to high popularity of Crestron and difficulty in programming it. So bad installs tend to be more popular there than others.

I also don't see affinity with customer being familiar with Apple products being a driver to propose Savant. The fact that Savant is Mac based is hidden from the customer. It is not like they can run MacOS apps on it and such. Savant is an easy to program control system and together with Crestron are the main two with a high-performance and fast HDMI switchers. That is the reason to recommend it.
Reply
Reply
post #50 of 57
11/19/12 at 7:50pm
Amirm,

That's very interesting. We actually have clients asking for Savant products by name. I agree that Creston is the most well known but Savant is quickly catching on and they are doing a great job of marketing themselves to create client awareness.

Do you have ANYONE ask for AMX systems at all?

Travis
Reply
Reply
post #51 of 57
11/21/12 at 9:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travisleo View Post

Amirm,
That's very interesting. We actually have clients asking for Savant products by name. I agree that Creston is the most well known but Savant is quickly catching on and they are doing a great job of marketing themselves to create client awareness.
Do you have ANYONE ask for AMX systems at all?
Travis
We also get occasional request for Savant by name. As a percentage of our installs though, that statistics remains small. And no, there is no one asking for AMX.
Reply
Reply
post #52 of 57
5/7/13 at 4:01am
Crestron, Control4, AMX, Savant: From A tech savvy end user with multiple systems and deep experience in the industry.

This post is primarily about my experiences with Control4 and Crestron and to a lesser extent AMX. There are MEANINGFUL differences between Control4 and the higher end vendors that have not been captured in any reviews I've noted.

(For you systems types Control4 is like software as a service and the other vendors are like high end enterprise software solutions.)

I will add more detail over time if requested

Background:

I've run home automation systems in my homes since the early 1990's. I've had AMX systems in 3 homes and was pretty involved with the company management from the time they came public until Scott Miller had too many Heinikens and was replaced. Subsequently, and probably as a result of management changes and being taken over by a private equity firm they seem to have dropped off of the commercial/residential controls radar.

I currently have one Crestron system in one home and it has been extremely stable/fast and hard to update and program.

I am in the later stages of a replacement of one of my AMX systems with a Control4 system. I will separate my observations from the massive system failures on my control4 and presume they are resolvable. (It is possible my c4 system will be thrown out.)

I am also in the planning stages for a very large, very high end system and I am pre-wiring to be vendor independent. I'm not particularly fond of any of the providers.

While cost is an issue, the central issue is your integrator and integrators tend to be small businesses that don't scale that well. The business is a hard business with lots of customization, a model that's hard to scale and a lot dependent on the quality of the integrator.

Control4:

Predesigned UI, limited customization. Simpler to install. Unclear to me now, but it is possible that switching integrators may be much easier, and that is very important to keep in mind. It is reasonably likely your system will outlive your integrator.

Lower Costs (yes devices are a little cheaper, but in the end hardware is only a fraction of total system costs.) Programming is easier.

Because there is less customization, having a Control4 will likely make it MUCH easier for you to add/integrate new features. Who knows what new devices are going to crop up that you'd want to integrate/control? With Control4, it's a simple upgrade/update. With Crestron and the other high end vendors, call out the phalanx of programmers and the checkbook.

Cons:

Control4 DOES NOT have full communication with Lutron for status of lighting scenes. If you set a Lutron scene, Control 4 will pass the signal, but not reflect the status! (it does show status on individual fixtures. This creates issues for reliability and remote management. Yes, C4 provides status via it's own panelized lighting system, nbut I would not hardwire any vendor's proprietary lighting system.

Newest touch panels from Control4 do not have iPad like scrolling/swiping. This makes list navigation very annoying. The panels are attractive but are unimpressive to use.

Control4 is SLOW in command and response. Not unacceptable, just slow. There is a meaningful lag after issuing a command and getting a response.

Crestron:

Pros:

Complete control over UI: But much more lanbor intensive to implement and program.

Bi directional control of Lutron and other lighting systems.

Very high performance, instant control/response over subsystems.

The 300 to 500 milisecond delay on control4 may not bother you, but when you've had a higher end system it is distracting.

Once properly deployed, Crestron has been very reliable.

Conclusion:

With a high end budget, I would lean towards Crestron, but with budget and integrator concerns in mind I would consider Control4. I am undecided which direction to head on my next project. Reliability is critical and Control4 has been a problem, but I think it can be resolved.

AMX seems to be out of the running. I dislike Savant's Apple centric architecture, becuase I worry about how Apple will develop OSX over time, it may not evolve in a way that helps the home automation business. I do hear that Savant is the only vendor with a decent intercom system.


As you can imagine, I can add a bit more detail, I will happily respond to any questions.

My Advice: Be skeptical of any vendor's proprietary lighting system, go with Lutron. Prewire to be vendor independent. Otherwise you are stuck and it may impact resale value of your home or leave you locked in to a specific dealer.
Reply
Reply
post #53 of 57
5/7/13 at 6:10pm
You say you would not hardwire any vendor's proprietary lighting system, but you would with Lutron?

If you mean a system with home-runned loads, aren't there several manufacturers to choose from, for replacement? IIRC, Crestron, Lutron, Centralite, C4, and Vantage all offer a similar product.
Reply
Reply
post #54 of 57
5/8/13 at 12:35pm
All the vendors use a similar home run wiring architecture, I'm talking about designing my wiring in a way that limits my dependence on a specific vendor. I've been using Lutron for over a decade and in over 5 homes and have NEVER had a single failure of any kind. So since the bug players all integrate with Lutron, using Lutron as my shade/lighting backbone makes me less dependent on any automation front end. That said, as more data comes in I lean more and more towards Crestron and disposing of my control4.
Reply
Reply
post #55 of 57
5/14/13 at 12:03pm
I just want to corroborate with others that there is virtually no cost difference hardware wise between control4 and crestron. I recently checked on a cp3 versus an hc-250 and while the hc-250 is $250 cheaper, if you need more than 2 or 3 serial ports (I needed 5) with both your going to need extenders which brings both to exactly the same price (adding an st-com and a c4-iox-e-b respectively). If you start looking at the hc-800, that's a heck of a lot more expensive than a cp3.
Reply
Reply
post #56 of 57
5/19/13 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by trs80model1 View Post

Crestron, Control4, AMX, Savant: From A tech savvy end user with multiple systems and deep experience in the industry.

This post is primarily about my experiences with Control4 and Crestron and to a lesser extent AMX. There are MEANINGFUL differences between Control4 and the higher end vendors that have not been captured in any reviews I've noted.

(For you systems types Control4 is like software as a service and the other vendors are like high end enterprise software solutions.)

I will add more detail over time if requested

Background:

I've run home automation systems in my homes since the early 1990's. I've had AMX systems in 3 homes and was pretty involved with the company management from the time they came public until Scott Miller had too many Heinikens and was replaced. Subsequently, and probably as a result of management changes and being taken over by a private equity firm they seem to have dropped off of the commercial/residential controls radar.

I currently have one Crestron system in one home and it has been extremely stable/fast and hard to update and program.

I am in the later stages of a replacement of one of my AMX systems with a Control4 system. I will separate my observations from the massive system failures on my control4 and presume they are resolvable. (It is possible my c4 system will be thrown out.)

I am also in the planning stages for a very large, very high end system and I am pre-wiring to be vendor independent. I'm not particularly fond of any of the providers.

While cost is an issue, the central issue is your integrator and integrators tend to be small businesses that don't scale that well. The business is a hard business with lots of customization, a model that's hard to scale and a lot dependent on the quality of the integrator.

Control4:

Predesigned UI, limited customization. Simpler to install. Unclear to me now, but it is possible that switching integrators may be much easier, and that is very important to keep in mind. It is reasonably likely your system will outlive your integrator.

Lower Costs (yes devices are a little cheaper, but in the end hardware is only a fraction of total system costs.) Programming is easier.

Because there is less customization, having a Control4 will likely make it MUCH easier for you to add/integrate new features. Who knows what new devices are going to crop up that you'd want to integrate/control? With Control4, it's a simple upgrade/update. With Crestron and the other high end vendors, call out the phalanx of programmers and the checkbook.

Cons:

Control4 DOES NOT have full communication with Lutron for status of lighting scenes. If you set a Lutron scene, Control 4 will pass the signal, but not reflect the status! (it does show status on individual fixtures. This creates issues for reliability and remote management. Yes, C4 provides status via it's own panelized lighting system, nbut I would not hardwire any vendor's proprietary lighting system.

Newest touch panels from Control4 do not have iPad like scrolling/swiping. This makes list navigation very annoying. The panels are attractive but are unimpressive to use.

Control4 is SLOW in command and response. Not unacceptable, just slow. There is a meaningful lag after issuing a command and getting a response.

Crestron:

Pros:

Complete control over UI: But much more lanbor intensive to implement and program.

Bi directional control of Lutron and other lighting systems.

Very high performance, instant control/response over subsystems.

The 300 to 500 milisecond delay on control4 may not bother you, but when you've had a higher end system it is distracting.

Once properly deployed, Crestron has been very reliable.

Conclusion:

With a high end budget, I would lean towards Crestron, but with budget and integrator concerns in mind I would consider Control4. I am undecided which direction to head on my next project. Reliability is critical and Control4 has been a problem, but I think it can be resolved.

AMX seems to be out of the running. I dislike Savant's Apple centric architecture, becuase I worry about how Apple will develop OSX over time, it may not evolve in a way that helps the home automation business. I do hear that Savant is the only vendor with a decent intercom system.


As you can imagine, I can add a bit more detail, I will happily respond to any questions.

My Advice: Be skeptical of any vendor's proprietary lighting system, go with Lutron. Prewire to be vendor independent. Otherwise you are stuck and it may impact resale value of your home or leave you locked in to a specific dealer.


if i wanted to eventually do control4. what lighting system now would you recommend? I didn't realize control4 and lutron didn't play well together frown.gif
Reply
Reply
post #57 of 57
5/19/13 at 12:51pm
We are large Vantage Controls dealers on the west coast.
Most of our projects use Crestron or AMX as their overall control system, and Vantage for their lighting controls.
These Crestron dealers like the Vantage equipment as well as the easy programming interface, better than the Crestron equipment.
In addition to being somewhat less expensive, I believe it is also much easier to install.

+1 +1 +1...... to all of the above comments that the top priority should be the programmer and his/her GUI. A badly programmed non- intuititave system no matter what you pay for it, is worthless.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Home Automation

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › A/V Control & Automation › Home Automation › Control 4 vs Crestron