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Denon AVR 4311. Will it be replaced by the 4520? Pricing and comparisons questions...

post #1 of 86
4/19/12 at 5:36pm
Thread Starter 
Hello to all. I am new here, so pleae bare with some questions. Yes, I have searched I am replacing my Denon 3806 receiver, and have almost made up my mind to go with the Denon 4311, although I am still considering the Onkyo 3009. What are your thoughts between the two? I was told that Yamaha and Pioneer is also a good choice. I never had one issue with my Denon 3806, so I am leaning towards staying with Denon. The new receiver will be powering Polk RTI A9 towers, CSI A6 center, FXI A6 side surrounds, and FXI 30 rear surrounds. I am looking for the most power possible, without having to get an external amplifier for a while.

My concern is that the Denon 4311 was released in 2010, and a replacement is due. Technology is changing so rapidly since around 2005, that I do not want to end up with an outdated receiver, and want to purchase one that I can keep for 10 years or so. I would hate to purchase a 4311, to only have a replacement model come out a few months later with new and improved technology, more power, a better auddsey set-up system, etc... Is the soon to be released 4520 going to replace the 4311, or is this just a new model that will slate above the 4300 series? Does anyone know what will be the differences for the 4520?

Last, but not least, yes I missed the $799.00 deal that a "few" were able to obtain from Vanns a few weeks ago The best pricing that I have been offered for one through a few authorized Denon dealers is around has ranged from $1249 - 1299. Does anyone here have any contacts for an authorized dealer that can do better? If so, please PM me the contact information. I am also going to probably get a Denon 1611 Blue Ray. Any opinions on this unit or a better one with the same price range? Thanks in advance.
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post #2 of 86
4/19/12 at 5:46pm
You didn't miss any deal at Vann's. AFAIK, all those sales were reported as cancelled as it was a mistake. The 4520CI will be replacing both the 4311CI and the 4810CI and is reported to be priced at $2500 (ie. midway between 4311CI and 4810CI). D&M will be releasing it's feature set later this summer with a product release of Sep at CEDIA.
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post #3 of 86
4/19/12 at 6:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You didn't miss any deal at Vann's. AFAIK, all those sales were reported as cancelled as it was a mistake. The 4520CI will be replacing both the 4311CI and the 4810CI and is reported to be priced at $2500 (ie. midway between 4311CI and 4810CI). D&M will be releasing it's feature set later this summer with a product release of Sep at CEDIA.

I think that I know for a fact that at least one person got that deal, but I cannot disclose how It would be a no brainer, that is for sure. The question now is, should I purchase the 4311 now, or wait until the specs for the 4520 are released along with production? Would it be safe to say that the 4520 will be as heavily discounted upon release, as the 4311 is now, of course still costing more due to the increase in MSRP? Any guesses as to which features the 4520 will have that the current 4311 does not? If I could find a better deal on the 4311 new from an authorized vendor now, that would make me move forward without hesitation, but if i could get the 4520 when it is released for a few hundred more, then I will be kicking myself for not waiting.
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post #4 of 86
4/19/12 at 6:18pm
There's already another thread tracking the guesses ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1368799
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post #5 of 86
4/19/12 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

There's already another thread tracking the guesses ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1368799

Saw that one. Thanks. Too long and convoluted, and I specifically want to know about the 4520. I guess that I will have to wait and see, unless somone has information now that they may be willing to disclose, even if by PM. I hate spending this kind of money with uncertainty and not completely at ease with my decision.
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post #6 of 86
4/19/12 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

I hate spending this kind of money with uncertainty and not completely at ease with my decision.

A few words of advice -- you will never be "completely at ease with [your] decision."

If you buy the 4311CI now, you will save some money but likely feel some pangs of regret when the 4520CI is released. If you hold out for the 4520CI, you will spend a lot more money -- perhaps needlessly so -- or realize that the 4311CI is perfectly adequate for your needs and kick yourself for waiting an additional six months. Alternatively, if you hold out for the 4520CI, you may be tempted to wait a bit longer for the price to settle down. Of course, that deprives you of a few more months. And, by that time, the 2013-2014 models will be right around the corner, so why not wait to see what they have to offer?

Ultimately, you will never have complete information. But you have to be willing to take the plunge and live with your choice -- or sell it off and move on to something else. Otherwise, undecided, you will sit on the sideline for weeks, months, even years...

AJ
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post #7 of 86
4/19/12 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

A few words of advice -- you will never be "completely at ease with [your] decision."

If you buy the 4311CI now, you will save some money but likely feel some pangs of regret when the 4520CI is released. If you hold out for the 4520CI, you will spend a lot more money -- perhaps needlessly so -- or realize that the 4311CI is perfectly adequate for your needs and kick yourself for waiting an additional six months. Alternatively, if you hold out for the 4520CI, you may be tempted to wait a bit longer for the price to settle down. Of course, that deprives you of a few more months. And, by that time, the 2013-2014 models will be right around the corner, so why not wait to see what they have to offer?

Ultimately, you will never have complete information. But you have to be willing to take the plunge and live with your choice -- or sell it off and move on to something else. Otherwise, undecided, you will sit on the sideline for weeks, months, even years...

AJ

AJ, I do agree with you. In the past, you could get an AVR and little would change in the course of 10 years or so. Nowadays, AVR's are almost like computers. You buy one, and next year they are almost obsolete (not that bad of course) So much has changed since I bought my 3806 in 2005, that it is crazy. My main question is if there will be significant changes/updates to the 4520 that will warrant waiting for it to replace the now two-year old 4311, such as a new version of HDMI 1.5, or a more advanced audyssey set-up, maybe much better and powerful amplification, or a breakthrough technology...
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post #8 of 86
4/19/12 at 9:15pm
I say just get the 4311.

Re: new version of HDMI - all of the features of HDMI 1.4 are not even fully implemented yet

Re: Audyssey - I have not seen or heard anything about room correction better than XT32, which already has over 10,000 control points - the newest Audyssey technology that will be added to avrs is not related to room correction - it's low frequency containment and completely looks like a gimmick

Re: more powerful amps in the avr - it will not make any audible difference

Also, the 4520 will also likely cost over 2000 after discounts from authorized dealers.

The 4311 is still state of the art technology even though it is two years old. The only thing it doesn't have is Neo:X with 11 channels, but nothing else does either. It does DSX with 11 channels though.
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post #9 of 86
4/20/12 at 12:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

.
Ultimately, you will never have complete information. But you have to be willing to take the plunge and live with your choice -- or sell it off and move on to something else. Otherwise, undecided, you will sit on the sideline for weeks, months, even years...

AJ

AJ is spot on ... either buy now and enjoy now or you'll always be waiting for what's around the corner (which is rumored to be HDMI 2.0 next summer ).
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post #10 of 86
4/20/12 at 5:05am
The next thing in TVs is going to be 4k. Essentially double the lines of resolution of HDTV both vertically and horizontally. My wild guess is mainstream TVs with this will start rolling out in 2015.

HDMI 1.4 already supports this. So in theory, if you have HDMI 1.4, you're probably good to go video wise for the next 5 or so years.

There's not a lot of room for improvement for the 4311. 11.2 Neo:X is the only obvious thing I see. I doubt it's much different than the DSX version. Although my hunch is if a 11.2 standard is adopted, it will probably be Neo:X since Neo:X, in theory, supports pretty much any speaker setup, so it has simplicity on its side.

Quote:
I never had one issue with my Denon 4311

Do you already have a 4311?
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post #11 of 86
4/20/12 at 5:13am
i agree with aj... buy what you need today and worry about tomorrow when it comes... the 4311, although "2 years old", is essentially current technology (with the exception of dsx)...

as far as the bdp goes, i personally would choose the oppo 93 over the denon you listed...
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post #12 of 86
4/20/12 at 6:11am
I would take the 4311 but if you are worried about not having a "new" receiver then look at the Onkyo 818. It will be a lot cheaper than the 3009 can comes with XT32. If you can afford the 4311 I would get it though because it has proven to be a very reliable model. I have been watching the 4311 for quite a while and I still may get one but if the street price is good on the 818 when it comes out then I will probably just go with it.
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post #13 of 86
4/20/12 at 6:38am
Other things to consider.

Sometimes with all these improvements / upgrades you loose other things. My 889 has a lot more legacy inputs including phono in and 7.1 analog in as well as a dedicated zone 2 out speaker connection. For this now you have to step up to the 33XX series or even the 43XX. You do get ethernet / internet and more HDMI inputs and improved Audessey (but is it really all that improved?). I'm not completely sold on internet connectivity in an AVR because I have an HTPC that provides full internet access.
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post #14 of 86
4/20/12 at 6:41am
^^^

yes, xt32 is objectively "better" than xt...
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post #15 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy2 View Post

You do get ethernet / internet and more HDMI inputs and improved Audessey (but is it really all that improved?).

I think you can get to the point of diminishing returns. I have compared MultEQ to MultEQ XT in two rooms now and haven't been able to tell a difference (if I had to choose I'd say voices where harder to make out with XT). I'm certain I wouldn't pass the double blind test. Spec wise it's certainly better however real life wise I'm not so sure... I know I upgraded just to get XT (the related hype drove me ) and it wasn't worth it. Perhaps XT32 is different... but I'm not going to risk another return(s) on it.
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post #16 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:30am
XT32 is in a totally different league from regular XT.
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post #17 of 86
4/20/12 at 8:14am
+1

Going from MultEQ --> XT there's only a difference of 8x more speaker filters as the sub filters remain the same, while going from XT-->XT32 the speaker filters are increased by 32x and the sub filters by 4x with the number of sub filters and speaker filters being equivalent.
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post #18 of 86
4/20/12 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

+1

Going from MultEQ --> XT there's only a difference of 8x more speaker filters as the sub filters remain the same, while going from XT-->XT32 the speaker filters are increased by 32x and the sub filters by 4x with the number of sub filters and speaker filters being equivalent.

For those who are unhappy with the way Audyssey XT makes there HT sound,
does XT32 make it sound 32x + 4x times worse ?? Some rooms and speaker, twin sub combs just don't work, as hoped..... Yes it takes some work/cash that some if us just don't want to have to add to the setup..
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post #19 of 86
4/20/12 at 9:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

XT32 is in a totally different league from regular XT.

Where are the double blind test results? I'd love to be impressed and would surely upgrade...
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post #20 of 86
4/20/12 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

The next thing in TVs is going to be 4k. Essentially double the lines of resolution of HDTV both vertically and horizontally. My wild guess is mainstream TVs with this will start rolling out in 2015.

HDMI 1.4 already supports this. So in theory, if you have HDMI 1.4, you're probably good to go video wise for the next 5 or so years.

There's not a lot of room for improvement for the 4311. 11.2 Neo:X is the only obvious thing I see. I doubt it's much different than the DSX version. Although my hunch is if a 11.2 standard is adopted, it will probably be Neo:X since Neo:X, in theory, supports pretty much any speaker setup, so it has simplicity on its side.


Do you already have a 4311?

That's not exactly true about HDMI 1.4 and 4K. HDMI 1.4a is actually made up of a bunch of optional requirements, such as 4K, 3D, ARC and a few others. 4K is an option under HDMI 1.4a and so not all (in fact not most) 1.4a chipsets support 4K. The manufacturer must specifically state that 4K is supported before you're sure that 4K is included. The good news is that any High Speed certified HDMI cable will support 4K.

At this point I know of 1 projector (Sony, JVC does not support 4K inputs) and a handful of AVRs that support 4K with no source material available. The lack of *any* source material is a real hinderence for adoption (my opinion, of course).

This is the reason that the HDMI Org is trying to get away from using HDMI version numbers and instead specifying capabilities. It gets very confusing when 1.4a can mean multiple different capabilities.
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post #21 of 86
4/20/12 at 9:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

That's not exactly true about HDMI 1.4 and 4K. HDMI 1.4a is actually made up of a bunch of optional requirements, such as 4K, 3D, ARC and a few others. 4K is an option under HDMI 1.4a and so not all (in fact not most) 1.4a chipsets support 4K. The manufacturer must specifically state that 4K is supported before you're sure that 4K is included. The good news is that any High Speed certified HDMI cable will support 4K.

I stand corrected.
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post #22 of 86
4/20/12 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles R View Post

Where are the double blind test results? I'd love to be impressed and would surely upgrade...

Can't say I did an double blind test, as my AVP had to leave the house for a few days to get upgraded to XT32. Regular XT was unusable to me, from a sonic standpoint. Too much colorization to the sound.

(Back on topic) I was so impressed by XT32, I will make sure it is every receiver/processor I buy, from this point forward.
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post #23 of 86
4/20/12 at 10:35am
Thread Starter 
Thank you all kindly for the responses. I still have the Denon 3806 and NOT the 4311 (error in my typing) Can someone explain to me what is 4K (and if this will have any bearing to the receiver that I get), the possible release of HDMI 2.0 (and if this will make the current 1.4 version obsolete), and what is 11.2 Neo:X (which the 4311 does NOT have), and what is the importance of this? Thanks again.
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post #24 of 86
4/20/12 at 10:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Thank you all kindly for the responses. I still have the Denon 3806 and NOT the 4311 (error in my typing) Can someone explain to me what is 4K (and if this will have any bearing to the receiver that I get), the possible release of HDMI 2.0 (and if this will make the current 1.4 version obsolete), and what is 11.2 Neo:X (which the 4311 does NOT have), and what is the importance of this? Thanks again.

4K is the next big thing in video. It will replace HDTV and have twice the resolution. It probably won't be available in TVs until around 2015 (Just a wild guess). Like HDTV, it probably will have limited content at first and will grow over time.

Some think it won't catch on. The same people who think 3D is a passing fad that will die. TV manufacturers have to offer a reason to upgrade and this seems to be the most likely thing
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post #25 of 86
4/20/12 at 11:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Can't say I did an double blind test, as my AVP had to leave the house for a few days to get upgraded to XT32.

Have you seen any testing at all? If it's so wonderful you'd think it would be out there... I'd love to upgrade and I'm oh so close to picking up one of those buggy Sherwood's for its EQ ability.
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post #26 of 86
4/20/12 at 11:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Thank you all kindly for the responses. I still have the Denon 3806 and NOT the 4311 (error in my typing) Can someone explain to me what is 4K (and if this will have any bearing to the receiver that I get), the possible release of HDMI 2.0 (and if this will make the current 1.4 version obsolete), and what is 11.2 Neo:X (which the 4311 does NOT have), and what is the importance of this? Thanks again.

1. What is 4K?

HDTV -
2k x 1k (1920x1080p)

UHDTV -
4k x 2k (3840x2160p) which has 4x resolution of 1080p
8k x 4k (7680x4320p) IMAX: which has 16x resolution of 1080p

2. HDMI 2.0

Details of HDMI 2.0 aren't out yet, but it very well likely will cause the same change in chipsets as did going from HDMI 1.3 to HDMI 1.4. However, unless you were to purchase an HDMI 2.0 source, it would be a moot point.

3. What is Neo:X?

It is DTS's answer to DD PLIIz and Audyssey DSX (front height/wide) and although ideally suited for an 11.1 setup, can be used in a 9.1 or 7.1 setup as well.
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post #27 of 86
4/20/12 at 11:37am
Thread Starter 
Thanks again all for the detailed explanations. JDS, so what is the true difference that DTS NEO X makes? The Audyssey XT32 in the Denon 4311 is superior to the DSX? Why was the NEO X not included in the 4311? I imagine because it was not out at the time that the 4311 was released.
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post #28 of 86
4/20/12 at 11:43am
^^
I've never experienced DTS Neo:X, although if you don't have an 11.1 setup, I wouldn't worry about it. No clue as to whether it's any better than using Audyssey DSX. The 4311CI was introduced before Neo:X came to market.
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post #29 of 86
4/20/12 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KidHorn View Post

4K is the next big thing in video. It will replace HDTV and have twice the resolution. It probably won't be available in TVs until around 2015 (Just a wild guess). Like HDTV, it probably will have limited content at first and will grow over time.

Some think it won't catch on. The same people who think 3D is a passing fad that will die. TV manufacturers have to offer a reason to upgrade and this seems to be the most likely thing

Not to turn this into a 4K discussion, but it is good to let someone know the details before they bet the AVR farm on 4K...

When HD started to become available on broadcast, the CE folks were already working on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (among other methods). Even the poor rollout for BD 3D had some source material and plenty of compatible TVs.

With 4K, no one has come up with a suitable shiny disc or network implentation of 4K. It will need new compression algorithms and new TVs/projectors with higher density pixels for many. Projectors are easier but the benefits require a really good sized screen. Many people still can't tell the difference between SD and HD (many think just because they pump an SD source using coax into their flat panel it is magically HD until they see the real thing).

Unless the government ends all HD broadcasting and assigns two frequencies per station (to cover the necessary bandwidth) *and* ultraviolet frequency discs come out, then 4K will be at best more of the niche market than 3D. We really enjoy our 3D movies, but at the same time recognize that most people don't care about 3D at home. The same will likely be true for 4K.

So betting the farm on 4K is not a good idea. My own personal belief for the next big thing in TV is still OLED and then transparent OLED.

BTW, the one wild card in the 4K discussion is gaming. If some game company comes out with a must-have game that requires 4K (only available in 4K) then maybe that might be the push 4K would need. I don't know who would give up their profit to push 4K instead. They would also need a delivery mechanism.

For upconversion, a TV or projector can do just as good of a job manipulating the bits as the disc player or network device. So upconverting at the source makes no sense to me for 4K. I think JVC got it right with their new projectors. If there is no source material, why have 4K components?

OK, back to the non-4K discussions...
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post #30 of 86
4/20/12 at 12:11pm
Thread Starter 
Very interesting discussion. Yes, OLED is supposed to come in hard later this year with big screen TVs. I suppose that it will eventually take over LCD and LED.

Is there anyone here that can help me attain a better pricing that I mentioned in my first post here for the 4311? Thanks.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Denon AVR 4311. Will it be replaced by the 4520? Pricing and comparisons questions...