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Denon AVR 4311. Will it be replaced by the 4520? Pricing and comparisons questions... - Page 2

post #31 of 86
4/20/12 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You didn't miss any deal at Vann's. AFAIK, all those sales were reported as cancelled as it was a mistake. The 4520CI will be replacing both the 4311CI and the 4810CI and is reported to be priced at $2500 (ie. midway between 4311CI and 4810CI). D&M will be releasing it's feature set later this summer with a product release of Sep at CEDIA.

I DID receive one of these for 799.99. My order was not cancelled. I belive just the pre-order's were cancelled after they ran out of their stock.
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post #32 of 86
4/20/12 at 12:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill1908 View Post

I DID receive one of these for 799.99. My order was not cancelled. I belive just the pre-order's were cancelled after they ran out of their stock.

Wow, you were lucky What a GREAT deal. That would be a no brainer, and I would purchase one immediately at that price. I will have to wait a little until that one comes back, as that is $500.00 less than the current quotes that I have received. I assume that Denon must be sending their dealers some cash back money in order to clear out the 4311.
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post #33 of 86
4/20/12 at 3:09pm
^^^

i would not hold my breath...
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post #34 of 86
4/20/12 at 3:13pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

i would not hold my breath...

Well, if it can be done once, why not twice?
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post #35 of 86
4/20/12 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Well, if it can be done once, why not twice?

You are holding out hope for another pricing error?! Lightning never strikes the same place twice.

AJ
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post #36 of 86
4/20/12 at 4:47pm
Trust me, the 4311 is worth every penny it costs and authorized internet dealers are selling very low as it is
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post #37 of 86
4/20/12 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Well, if it can be done once, why not twice?

if you are even worried about waiting to get it cheaper, why are you even asking about the 4520 in the first place? that will be over $2k street... to be brutally honest, if you are sweating 500 bucks, you are outkicking your coverage by even considering the next model up...

the 4311 is a bargain at the prices you have been quoted... i have owned a not insignificant number of mid to high end avrs and pre-pro's, and it is not just a bargain, it is a hall of fame bargain...

to sit on your hands and hope for another pricing error (or that they will somehow magically become significantly cheaper) is, ummm, not logical...

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiWavelength View Post

You are holding out hope for another pricing error?! Lightning never strikes the same place twice.

AJ

apparently he hasn't figured out this isn't a price check site, as he has repeatedly asked how he can get a better price than he has been quoted and hasn't gotten the answer he desires... it is possible he will eventually figure this out...
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post #38 of 86
4/20/12 at 6:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

I think that I know for a fact that at least one person got that deal, but I cannot disclose how It would be a no brainer, that is for sure. The question now is, should I purchase the 4311 now, or wait until the specs for the 4520 are released along with production? Would it be safe to say that the 4520 will be as heavily discounted upon release, as the 4311 is now, of course still costing more due to the increase in MSRP? Any guesses as to which features the 4520 will have that the current 4311 does not? If I could find a better deal on the 4311 new from an authorized vendor now, that would make me move forward without hesitation, but if i could get the 4520 when it is released for a few hundred more, then I will be kicking myself for not waiting.

In other words, if you could get it below a dealers cost.
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post #39 of 86
4/20/12 at 6:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

if you are even worried about waiting to get it cheaper, why are you even asking about the 4520 in the first place? that will be over $2k street... to be brutally honest, if you are sweating 500 bucks, you are outkicking your coverage by even considering the next model up...

the 4311 is a bargain at the prices you have been quoted... i have owned a not insignificant number of mid to high end avrs and pre-pro's, and it is not just a bargain, it is a hall of fame bargain...

to sit on your hands and hope for another pricing error (or that they will somehow magically become significantly cheaper) is, ummm, not logical...



apparently he hasn't figured out this isn't a price check site, as he has repeatedly asked how he can get a better price than he has been quoted and hasn't gotten the answer he desires... it is possible he will eventually figure this out...

Thank you for the kind words Chris. You have provided invaluable input and have tremendously assisted in answering the questions that I have posted. Most here have been very helpful and answering questions with no sarcasm whatsoever, and to those, that is much appreciated. I already have a complete HT set-up and am in the process of updating it with no rush whatsoever, at my own leisure. I already have all new speakers on order, and now am deciding on which AVR and Blue Ray to purchase, with the TV replacement at last. I am doing my research and due diligence. I do not think that the Vann's price was an error, but an immediate effort to clear out their existing inventory, and when the inventory was gone, then they came up with the pricing error theory, or maybe they were contacted by Denon for selling well below acceptable pricing levels. Since this model is going to be replaced by the 4520 soon or so they say, I believe that the $799.00 price or even close to that will return to clear the model out. The 4311 retails for $2100 and the 4520 will retail for $2500, so that is a retail difference of only $400.00. So the actual street purchase price of the 4520 may be say $300.00 more than the 4311 based on the retail difference. I am just waiting it out, and want to find out the specs for the 4520, in order to see if there are going to be any new important features that warrant spending extra for it, or new technologies that are worth waiting that may make the 4311 obsolete. $500.00 is $500.00, so yes if I pay $1300 for one today, and then the $799.00 is back a few weeks later, or even sub 1K price, of course anyone would be upset or frustrated at that. I am sure that any prudent and reasonable person would want to save that money, given the chance or time (since all of these items are not a need, but a want). If you have access to money as if it grew on trees on your back yard, then more power to you, but even the richest and most successful business people want to make smart money saving decisions. I have several questions about the receiver, how it compares to others, features, if anyones knew what the 4520 will have in addition to the 4311, and yes, ultimately price, as I do not have many contacts or experience with home theaters, I thought that I could get help here, much like people go to car websites, boats, PWC, or whatever they are interested in to inquire what dealers have the best deal, etc...
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post #40 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bill1908 View Post

I DID receive one of these for 799.99. My order was not cancelled. I belive just the pre-order's were cancelled after they ran out of their stock.

Some how I don't believe that. You do not stay in business long by selling a product several hundred below cost. This is not a discontinued product that companies are worried about getting stuck with and trying to dump. Even if it was, a dealer would at least try to get around cost for it.
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post #41 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

....the 4520 will retail for $2500...

You don't know that.
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post #42 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Wow, you were lucky What a GREAT deal. That would be a no brainer, and I would purchase one immediately at that price. I will have to wait a little until that one comes back, as that is $500.00 less than the current quotes that I have received. I assume that Denon must be sending their dealers some cash back money in order to clear out the 4311.




You will be waiting a while. There is no cash back from Denon. If there was, then there would be several dealers offering this AVR at really low prices.
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post #43 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


BTW, the one wild card in the 4K discussion is gaming. If some game company comes out with a must-have game that requires 4K (only available in 4K) then maybe that might be the push 4K would need. I don't know who would give up their profit to push 4K instead. They would also need a delivery mechanism.


OK, back to the non-4K discussions...

How about a PS4K?
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post #44 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

[/b]

You will be waiting a while. There is no cash back from Denon. If there was, then there would be several dealers offering this AVR at really low prices.

Mike your being nice - he will be waiting indefinitely. The 4620 will be out before he finds a price for a new 4311 like the error that occurred a few weeks ago. As evil Chris said - the 4311 is that good, there isn't a better receiver out there right now at its price. How many posts before it sinks in?
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post #45 of 86
4/20/12 at 7:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by smurraybhm View Post

Mike your being nice - he will be waiting indefinitely. The 4620 will be out before he finds a price for a new 4311 like the error that occurred a few weeks ago. As evil Chris said - the 4311 is that good, there isn't a better receiver out there right now at its price. How many posts before it sinks in?

Even waiting until Denon's new higher end models are out is going to be awhile. Usually in May/June for announcements. This year, look for announcements at Cedia and 2013 for the new models. If in the next several months the OPer comes across that price, please let AVS know. We want to buy as many of them as we can at that price.

As for the 4311, I am really happy with what XT32 did for my system and it is a big step up from XT.
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post #46 of 86
4/20/12 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

Some how I don't believe that. You do not stay in business long by selling a product several hundred below cost. This is not a discontinued product that companies are worried about getting stuck with and trying to dump. Even if it was, a dealer would at least try to get around cost for it.

Why would the poster have a reason not to tell the truth? Besides, a vendor told me that they received a return from a recent 4311 purchase, because the person bought one through Vann's for the $799.00 price, and returned the other that they paid more for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

You don't know that.

Well, I have been told the same price by three reputable vendors, so I have no reason not to believe them. And it makes sense, since it will slate between the 4311 and 4810's current retail price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

[/b]

You will be waiting a while. There is no cash back from Denon. If there was, then there would be several dealers offering this AVR at really low prices.

To be honest, I do not know how the HT business operates specifically, although I am told that there is usually a 50% - 60% mark-up, but that of course varies. for the automotive, PWC, motor bikes, and many other industries, manufacturers offer dealers cash incentives, holdbacks, and other monies that most consumers may not be aware of. For example, the "invoices" for cars displayed in KBB or Edmunds is not true dealer cost, and there is still thousands of profit if buying at what people believe is invoice price.

[quote=AV Science Sales 5;21932844]Even waiting until Denon's new higher end models are out is going to be awhile. Usually in May/June for announcements. This year, look for announcements at Cedia and 2013 for the new models. If in the next several months the OPer comes across that price, please let AVS know. We want to buy as many of them as we can at that price.

Like I said, I am in no rush. I have a receiver, speakers, and complete HT system, and am just looking to upgrade. My new speakers are on order, but on back order, and will not arrive until late May anyway, so it would do me no good to rush and purchase a receiver today. I will wait a month or so to find out if the new features in the 4520 warrant the wait and slight price increase. In the meantime, I will keep my eyes peeled, and if I can find or get an irresistable price on the 4311 before that, then I will buy it now, even if it is not $799.00.
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post #47 of 86
4/20/12 at 8:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

....I do not know how the HT business operates specifically, although I am told that there is usually a 50% - 60% mark-up, but that of course varies.

Take it from people who have worked in the A/V biz selling Denon (including myself), you are way off base on most of your assumptions.
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post #48 of 86
4/20/12 at 8:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam S View Post

Take it from people who have worked in the A/V biz selling Denon (including myself), you are way off base on most of your assumptions.

Well, if that is the case, then I ask for you and the others that sell Denon products to please educate me, even if via PM, if necessary. I know that it is kind of like asking a car salesman to disclose all the tricks of the trade, which will most likely not happen, not with complete honestly, at least. Manufacturer's have to offer some incentive from time to time though, that is for sure, such as clearances, close-outs, etc... Vendors that do higher volume and meet certain sale criterias get even more incentives from the manufacturers. I know this for a fact and pesonal experience. For instance, Costco already has reduced prices for electronics with less mark-up than other retailers, but even them will run specials from time to time for hundreds or even thousands below their pricing. I remember that last year, they had a Samsung 55 inch 7050 TV for $2799, and they reduced the price to $1799 for a limited time, which was thousands off from other retailers. Samsung had to offer them some sort of incentive for doing that. The pricing has never dropped lower for that particular TV at Costco, but is reduced a several hundred from time to time.

In the end, with all of the recent attacks, this is turning mostly into a pissing match. If anyone has any ACTUAL information that will help me price-wise, versus pissing on this thread, please PM me. I do thank all of the ones that have posted constructive information. Also, if anyone has any knowledge (before the general release to the publich) of what will be the updated features on the 4520, please PM me as well.
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post #49 of 86
4/20/12 at 11:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post

Not to turn this into a 4K discussion, but it is good to let someone know the details before they bet the AVR farm on 4K...

When HD started to become available on broadcast, the CE folks were already working on Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (among other methods). Even the poor rollout for BD 3D had some source material and plenty of compatible TVs.

With 4K, no one has come up with a suitable shiny disc or network implentation of 4K. It will need new compression algorithms and new TVs/projectors with higher density pixels for many. Projectors are easier but the benefits require a really good sized screen. Many people still can't tell the difference between SD and HD (many think just because they pump an SD source using coax into their flat panel it is magically HD until they see the real thing).

Unless the government ends all HD broadcasting and assigns two frequencies per station (to cover the necessary bandwidth) *and* ultraviolet frequency discs come out, then 4K will be at best more of the niche market than 3D. We really enjoy our 3D movies, but at the same time recognize that most people don't care about 3D at home. The same will likely be true for 4K.

So betting the farm on 4K is not a good idea. My own personal belief for the next big thing in TV is still OLED and then transparent OLED.

BTW, the one wild card in the 4K discussion is gaming. If some game company comes out with a must-have game that requires 4K (only available in 4K) then maybe that might be the push 4K would need. I don't know who would give up their profit to push 4K instead. They would also need a delivery mechanism.

For upconversion, a TV or projector can do just as good of a job manipulating the bits as the disc player or network device. So upconverting at the source makes no sense to me for 4K. I think JVC got it right with their new projectors. If there is no source material, why have 4K components?

OK, back to the non-4K discussions...

While the crazies on forums like this will buy 4K and claim they see a difference on 1080p (BD) and 1080i (broadcast) material, you're absolutely correct that it's absurd unless there was a way to receive such program content. And since there isn't, there's no point. Broadcast/cable hasn't figured out a way to send 1080p, how are they going to send 4K? Besides, transmission isn't the only issue. With the advent of HD, everyone went through huge capital expenditures for which they didn't believe there was any return on investment - more people don't watch TV because of HD. And that was when the economy was pretty good. Broadcasters and production houses are not going to go through it again. They're not going to replace all their cameras and production chains in order to handle 4K.

Also, ALL of the major TV manufacturers, especially the Japanese companies, are in trouble. Although the markup on high-end sets is much higher than average sets, I don't think they're going to invest unless they're sure of a return. I think if there is a 4K market, it's going to be an esoteric market for the first 5 years at least. And that means it will be handled by smaller companies, not the big ones. The Elite Pro 70 sells for about $6800. In 90" and in 4K, we're probably talking $15K. How many people will spend $15K for a TV when there's no 4K content?

All IMO, of course.
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post #50 of 86
4/21/12 at 5:05am
while still possible, it hasn't happened yet...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


apparently he hasn't figured out this isn't a price check site, as he has repeatedly asked how he can get a better price than he has been quoted and hasn't gotten the answer he desires... it is possible he will eventually figure this out...
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post #51 of 86
4/21/12 at 5:17am
+1 to andy and zoet's thoughts on 4k...

leaving aside for a moment the lack of sources/delivery methods for 4k...

no doubt we are going to hear all kinds of anecdotal reports about "night and day differences" (probably mostly from people who aren't sitting close enough to resolve 1080p, let alone 4k... )... we have already seen this story play out with the high rez codecs...

bottom line is though, unless you are sitting around 1 screen width (or less) from a large screen (meaning 100" or more), there is virtually no benefit to the end user... and at the end of the day, that group of end users is very small... VERY small...

almost all users would benefit far more by improving their viewing environment and properly calibrating their displays...
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post #52 of 86
4/21/12 at 5:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Well, if that is the case, then I ask for you and the others that sell Denon products to please educate me, even if via PM, if necessary. I know that it is kind of like asking a car salesman to disclose all the tricks of the trade, which will most likely not happen, not with complete honestly, at least. Manufacturer's have to offer some incentive from time to time though, that is for sure, such as clearances, close-outs, etc... Vendors that do higher volume and meet certain sale criterias get even more incentives from the manufacturers. I know this for a fact and pesonal experience. For instance, Costco already has reduced prices for electronics with less mark-up than other retailers, but even them will run specials from time to time for hundreds or even thousands below their pricing. I remember that last year, they had a Samsung 55 inch 7050 TV for $2799, and they reduced the price to $1799 for a limited time, which was thousands off from other retailers. Samsung had to offer them some sort of incentive for doing that. The pricing has never dropped lower for that particular TV at Costco, but is reduced a several hundred from time to time.

In the end, with all of the recent attacks, this is turning mostly into a pissing match. If anyone has any ACTUAL information that will help me price-wise, versus pissing on this thread, please PM me. I do thank all of the ones that have posted constructive information. Also, if anyone has any knowledge (before the general release to the publich) of what will be the updated features on the 4520, please PM me as well.

People aren't attacking you, they are being honest with you.

If anyone knows the specifics of features and pricing of the 4520, they are highly likely to have signed a general NDA with D&M restricting them from releasing product information until D&M is good and ready.

As to your wishful thinking on 4311 pricing, again, people with a lot of experience and history are being honest with you. The $799 deal was an error - waiting for that again is like playing the lottery and expecting to win. Isn't happening. Looking at how Denon is positioning the 4520, I'd be shocked if there were sub $2K street prices on it any time soon, and I strongly suspect that the current street prices of the 4311 won't drop due to the lack of price pressure from the 4520.
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post #53 of 86
4/21/12 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

while still possible, it hasn't happened yet...

When did you become "evil Chris"? Did I miss something interesting or is that just how many wallets and bank accounts feel about you?
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post #54 of 86
4/21/12 at 6:02am
^^^

LOL!!! yea, that would be reason enough, wouldn't it? the op doesn't seem to know that i have spent more of opm than just about anyone here...

however, see post 39 and then post 44... smurray bequeathed me the new title...
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post #55 of 86
4/21/12 at 6:32am
^^^^

Got it. I need to more on top of my AVS thread reading to avoid missing out :-)
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post #56 of 86
4/21/12 at 6:38am
^^^

next time, i'll make sure to inform you of changes in my status...

before we congregate to eat smoked pig, you'd better warn mrs. bfreedma that i am now officially evil... she might want to keep her distance...
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post #57 of 86
4/21/12 at 8:30am
Eating smoked pig is evil...it is treif.


I am waiting for the new 4xxx to come out, but mostly because I am now broke after buying chairs, carpetting, and my projector. Hopefully I will find some deals on the 4311 due to people buying the new model and needing to offload their old one.
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post #58 of 86
4/22/12 at 7:43pm
What a bozo response to think the 4311's replacement will be immediately discounted based on what the 4311 is selling for. Crazy talk....

Quote:
Originally Posted by addictaudio View Post

Thank you for the kind words Chris. You have provided invaluable input and have tremendously assisted in answering the questions that I have posted. Most here have been very helpful and answering questions with no sarcasm whatsoever, and to those, that is much appreciated. I already have a complete HT set-up and am in the process of updating it with no rush whatsoever, at my own leisure. I already have all new speakers on order, and now am deciding on which AVR and Blue Ray to purchase, with the TV replacement at last. I am doing my research and due diligence. I do not think that the Vann's price was an error, but an immediate effort to clear out their existing inventory, and when the inventory was gone, then they came up with the pricing error theory, or maybe they were contacted by Denon for selling well below acceptable pricing levels. Since this model is going to be replaced by the 4520 soon or so they say, I believe that the $799.00 price or even close to that will return to clear the model out. The 4311 retails for $2100 and the 4520 will retail for $2500, so that is a retail difference of only $400.00. So the actual street purchase price of the 4520 may be say $300.00 more than the 4311 based on the retail difference. I am just waiting it out, and want to find out the specs for the 4520, in order to see if there are going to be any new important features that warrant spending extra for it, or new technologies that are worth waiting that may make the 4311 obsolete. $500.00 is $500.00, so yes if I pay $1300 for one today, and then the $799.00 is back a few weeks later, or even sub 1K price, of course anyone would be upset or frustrated at that. I am sure that any prudent and reasonable person would want to save that money, given the chance or time (since all of these items are not a need, but a want). If you have access to money as if it grew on trees on your back yard, then more power to you, but even the richest and most successful business people want to make smart money saving decisions. I have several questions about the receiver, how it compares to others, features, if anyones knew what the 4520 will have in addition to the 4311, and yes, ultimately price, as I do not have many contacts or experience with home theaters, I thought that I could get help here, much like people go to car websites, boats, PWC, or whatever they are interested in to inquire what dealers have the best deal, etc...
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post #59 of 86
4/22/12 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Eating smoked pig is evil...it is treif.

I am waiting for the new 4xxx to come out, but mostly because I am now broke after buying chairs, carpetting, and my projector. Hopefully I will find some deals on the 4311 due to people buying the new model and needing to offload their old one.

Someone expose the Evil One to a good corned beef sandwich pronto.....as for the 4311, I'm sure that at least one Denon evangelist will put their unit on the market within a month or less of the 4520's release, when the siren song of upgradeitis gets too seductive....
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post #60 of 86
4/23/12 at 5:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoetmb View Post

While the crazies on forums like this will buy 4K and claim they see a difference on 1080p (BD) and 1080i (broadcast) material, you're absolutely correct that it's absurd unless there was a way to receive such program content. And since there isn't, there's no point. Broadcast/cable hasn't figured out a way to send 1080p, how are they going to send 4K? Besides, transmission isn't the only issue. With the advent of HD, everyone went through huge capital expenditures for which they didn't believe there was any return on investment - more people don't watch TV because of HD. And that was when the economy was pretty good. Broadcasters and production houses are not going to go through it again. They're not going to replace all their cameras and production chains in order to handle 4K.

Also, ALL of the major TV manufacturers, especially the Japanese companies, are in trouble. Although the markup on high-end sets is much higher than average sets, I don't think they're going to invest unless they're sure of a return. I think if there is a 4K market, it's going to be an esoteric market for the first 5 years at least. And that means it will be handled by smaller companies, not the big ones. The Elite Pro 70 sells for about $6800. In 90" and in 4K, we're probably talking $15K. How many people will spend $15K for a TV when there's no 4K content?

All IMO, of course.

4K is coming. It will start out in computer monitors probably in 2013 and will be in mainstream TVs probably by around 2015. The TV manufacturers need to add new features to goad people into buying new TVs and this is the only thing on the radar at the moment. Japanese companies will be in trouble if they don't deliver on 4k.

The cost of manufacturing for 4k isn't as much as you think. You can buy camera's for it for under $5,000 today. By the end of 2013, pretty much every new computer will be able to output 4k. If you can buy a $500 computer that can output it, you can make a set top box for probably around $300. Most video cards from ATI and nVidia can deliver a resolution comparable to 4k. It's for use with multiple monitors side by side, so the resolution is wider and shorter than the 4k spec, but the data throughput is similar.

As far as bandwidth is concerned. If you still use cable, you may be limited, but I get FIOS which is 100% fiber to my house and it can handle much more than they deliver. In my house, I have RG6, but a smart ONT only needs to feed what I'm watching. Not all 500 channels simultaneously. Comcast in my area has upgraded to fiber also.

As far as clarity is concerned. 4k looks much sharper than 1080p.
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