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Hawaii Home Theater Construction - Page 8

post #211 of 336
3/13/13 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

Thanks chrapladm.... sometimes I think I'm the only one looking at this stuff with any real interest.... which would actually be ok as it's a lot of fun for me to see the progress. wink.gif I really have never done anything like this ever before. Up until now, the greatest woodworking accomplishment I've ever had was making a wooden sign with my name on it in 8th grade wood shop. Everything I'm doing I need to read about and ask lots of questions... mostly to my retired dad who really can do this stuff at a pro level- makes me think this sort of natural skill must skip a generation. rolleyes.gif We'll see what it looks like when it's all done, it's way too early to think it will turn out well but I'm hopeful. The slow pace is killing me though.....

Everything is coming along nicely psychdoc!

I must admit that I was in a very similar position when I started: my most sophistocated tool was a screwdriver and I had zero construction experience. I have an uncle who is skilled but he is several hours away from me. Anyway, my point is that you're very right - with a bit of effort, this is doable even by a beginner. Doing the research and gaining the knowledge required to pull a project like this off...and then actually doing it myself (and yes it was slowwww)...was one of the high points of the entire process for me. I would say that it is as rewarding as the final product, but that might be a bit of a stretch. Something about sweating like a dog with green glue in my hair versus drinking a beer in a powered recliner while watching a ten foot wide TV... wink.gif
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post #212 of 336
3/13/13 at 8:37pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks AirBenji. I have to agree that the more I do the more special it is becoming. smile.gif
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post #213 of 336
3/13/13 at 10:36pm
Thread Starter 
Now you see the projector screen..... and,
Now you don't:
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post #214 of 336
3/14/13 at 10:17pm
Thread Starter 
bottom 2 x 2 lip on

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post #215 of 336
3/15/13 at 6:59am
Good progress! Amazing what a soffit can do to a room. Keep up the good work!
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post #216 of 336
3/15/13 at 1:00pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks GWCR! Hopefully there will be pretty good progress going forward over the next two weeks during my vacation. smile.gif
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post #217 of 336
3/17/13 at 12:12am
Thread Starter 
Lining up the face to perfectly vertical


next step... cross-members in with spacing for recessed cans and extra space for the star ceiling light engine


Another view.. smile.gif
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post #218 of 336
3/18/13 at 9:29pm
Thread Starter 
A bit of a maze to ensure the soffit will work around the screen with a small slit just for the screen to come down through.
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post #219 of 336
3/19/13 at 7:10am
Nice work Psychdoc! Very jealous for that Festool tracksaw....I will just have to tough it out the old fashioned way and clamp a straight edge to the sheet material and run my good 'ol Dewalt circular saw.

Are you planning on an open pocket or did you get the surface-mounted trim kit from Stewart that has the built-in metal pocket and the nice aesthetic when retracted?
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post #220 of 336
3/19/13 at 10:45am
Thread Starter 
Thanks TMcG. It will be an open pocket setup. Good eyes regarding the saw. Since I'm the nooby to this world I have no problem cheating....that's what the Festool saw allows me to do. All my cutting makes me look like I'm a pro and takes me about two seconds to do. biggrin.gif I'm not the type to get excited about tools but once you use this saw there is no way you're ever going back.
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post #221 of 336
3/21/13 at 12:29am
Thread Starter 
Switched to finished ply.... should have used that from the start.
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post #222 of 336
3/21/13 at 7:57am
Are you using surface-mounted lighting or something? I see the 12 gauge coming through the plywood, but not through a drilled 3" to 4" hole indicative of a recessed fixture.
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post #223 of 336
3/21/13 at 10:22am
Thread Starter 
I just decided to pull the wires through tiny holes so they would be out of the way when I start cutting the holes for the recessed light cans. A few tiny holes won't matter when the 1/4" sapele veneer goes on top. The long white cable is actually a speaker cable that will go to the right height channel.
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post #224 of 336
3/21/13 at 2:06pm
How are you going to cut the holes for the can lights with a set of 12ga wires hanging down where the hole goes?

For me, I put in smaller 3" cans. I took the 12ga wire and shoved it back up in the soffet, I cut my hole, and then fished out the wires. Having a hole already there may prove tricky if it is bigger than the "pilot" drill bit part of the hole saw.

This meant perfect pilot holes, and perfectly round can light holes. I almost did the same thing that you did and ran the wire through first, but opted not to. For me, the pilot bit on my hole saw is a lot smaller than the opening required for 12ga electrical so it would have wobbled around while I tried to cut the hole. Your's may be different.

I guess you could push the wires up, and start the pilot hole right next to the current hole, but you may have something way more ingenious that my idea in mind.



--- Just learning as you go so that I can be even better prepared for my next theater build (which won't be mine).

Thanks!
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post #225 of 336
3/22/13 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIGmouthinDC View Post

the kinetics instructions in post 155 only show a single layer of material and should not be extrapolated to multiple layers. The correct sequence is one layer of MDF on walls and ceiling, caulk, Then a layer of drywall first on the ceiling than a layer on the walls, caulk, Then a layer on the ceiling and a layer on the walls caulk. The result is a staggered stair step seam where the walls and ceiling meet. Much tighter sound control. If you caulk each of the three layers you are putting on the ceiling it will help mitigate the situation.

That was my concern as well. By leaving a 1/4" gap at the top of each consecutive layer of "wall" and side of each consecutive layer of "ceiling", which would be caulked with acoustic seal, you could have the staggered wall/ceiling joint, while effectively maintaining the floating ceiling.

As for strength against cracks, generally the sheets should be staggered. I'm looking at the MDF going up with all the joints lined up in post 190 and it looks like the DW in 196. The second row and every other row should start with a half sheet. Same with the DW. [MDF and particle board are oversize because they are often used as a base for laminates, which get glued-up and then trimmed to size.] They could be trimmed to a standard 96" before installation to avoid the creep OR if your room is slightly over the 4' increment, modify the channel layout at the 4' and 8' increments to allow for the extra inch. Starting the second layer on the ceiling at the end you finished the first layer, should stagger the cross joint...unless your room is a 4' increment in length in which case cut the sheet to 2' to start. In the off chance that your room is not perfectly square, the first row can be trimmed along the long side, so that the end is parallel to the wall that your channel was lined up with. This will eliminate most of the trimming on the rest of the ceiling. I know you are using 3 layers, but...if something is moving, even vibrating, it will want to crack. I would also tape the first layer of DW (it doesn't need a second coat of mud) to seal the joints before gluing up the second layer of DW.

How are you sound-sealing the holes for the receptacle boxes(?) that you've cut in the walls?

PS I'm jealous of the extra 3' of width you have over the future "my theater"! I'm at 16' x 26' x 11' at the screen end, stepping up to 9'. Right now it makes a great trim shop while I finish the rest of the addition. Too bad I'm out of the "other" green stuff. frown.gif
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post #226 of 336
3/22/13 at 6:01pm
Regarding the Sapele, as the lights go down the perceived lightness/reflection could be brought down by the sheen level of your finish. Use a matte or semi-matte urethane...or for a luxurious feel and look, hit the final coat of urethane with 0000 steel wool (or 400 grit very lightly on a pad sander for large flat surfaces) and give a "hand-rubbed" coat of finishing wax. It will subdue the reflection of light. Try a sample! 1/3 of the sample with matte, 1/3 with semi and wait for it...1/3 with urethane and finishing wax! If you want to throw stain into the mix, well...

At the end of the day, if you install it and natural is too light, even with the matte or wax finish, you can always strip the wax with varsol and give it a coat of urethane darkened with a compatible stain. Note that the stain won't give the same effect as on bare wood, but it will darken the whole panel evenly...sample.


When's opening night? I've never been to Hawaii. biggrin.gif
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post #227 of 336
3/22/13 at 6:04pm
Jim - Post 141 covers your question on how psychdoc is sound sealing the receptacle boxes, fyi.

And I have to admit, I am not quite sure why Kinetics Noise Control recommends that all the walls be built and then the ceiling be suspended within the walls when only clips are used for both the walls and ceiling. This is because the clips don't move...at all...and everything is tied into the structure directly. I do see the logic in their approach when using any of their suspended hanger systems for ceilings because the ceiling is then allowed to move ever so slightly to help absorb sound vibration, especially the low frequencies. The suspended system is actually extremely effective.

Psychdoc - since I am coming to the point of installing my own Kinetics products, one of the final things I needed to order was the sealant that Kinetics recommends for sealing around the perimeter of the room at the ceiling/wall juncture. They use a product called Sikaflex 1A, available at Fastenal and other retailers: http://www.fastenal.com/web/products/detail.ex?sku=63985 For what it's worth, they say that this stuff stays the softest the longest of any sealant they've ever used and have tested in their labs - by far. They also said the material is very dense and has good mass with a density equivalent to just over 5/8" drywall on a weight per volume basis. So I'm going to bite the bullet and order a case, but I thought I would pass along the information.
Edited by TMcG - 3/22/13 at 7:52pm
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post #228 of 336
3/22/13 at 7:05pm
Thread Starter 
Hi all... thanks Jim and TMcG for writing in.... it's always interesting to read people's posts regarding all of this.


This past week I've had a couple home automation firms come by and give me their thoughts regarding the room and setting up the bells and whistles. Today's firm liked what I had but shared my concern regarding the thin sheets (1/2") covering the soffit. There is SOOOO much weight on the ceiling that I felt like I had no choice. The engineer for the house also expressed caution regarding weight on the ceiling so..... it is what it is. Anyway, the pro suggested I drag out one of my four Aerial Acoustic SW12 subs and crank it up in each corner to see if the soffit will taint the sound (when you smack it hard it has a slight hint of a hollow drum sound but only if you slam your hand hard). After an exhausting exercise in doing a two man job with my SW12 all day long by myself (again) I can say that the sound in the room seems to be rock solid. It should only get better when the soffit gets the finished veneered layer (another 1/4"). Previously, I've set up full range speakers and blasted them to just check the walls and ceiling after initial completion and despite some sage advice regarding different ways of placing the MDF and drywall, as a whole it is solid as a TANK and knocks down the sound to an incredibly low level! Just to clarify, none of the layers are on the same seam.... every layer overlaps at a different area to ensure no seam would be a weak spot. Further, as shown in a previous photo.... all the cutting was done using a Festool track saw. I don't want to brag but I was amazed that all the seams were flawless on the MDF, especially on the ceiling. I still tried to push in some acoustic caulking but all I really did was rub it along the outside of the board... basically, I wasted some caulking.

Regarding the Sikaflex, I agree! I used all my supply up and had to buy more acoustic caulking and I noticed their was an absolute quality difference. Two weeks after using the cheap stuff I noticed it was drying and cracking. The Sikaflex always stayed a sticky, gooey mess. I hated working with it as it is a nightmare once it got on you but I would choose it again in a heartbeat. I just wish I knew it was sold at fastenal....I would have bought more instead of the cheap stuff.

Jim, thanks for the advice with the sapele. Like most parts of this project, I've gone in with little knowledge and forced myself to do a TON of research. Some info was easy to get, other parts seem to have lots of conflicting information or none at all. The finalized sapele wood is a part I am really concerned about. It will make or break the look of the room.

I'm currently having the crazy idea of slapping a 2x4 framework everywhere and covering it with another layer of MDF except where acoustic panels will go. Basically, that would allow the acoustic panels to be even with the walls and not stick out. I'll lose about 5 more inches in room width but it should look amazing. I'll be left with about 18' 1" for width and 25' 1" length. Still a pretty big room. One little part I think I'll need to ensure is that the framework is able to freely breath to ensure no triple leaf effect occurs (I think). That shouldn't be a difficult thing to do anyway.

Opening day??????....... I feel like it will be in a few years since things are going so slowly. In reality, I'm hoping it will be all done in 3-4 months. I suspect the star ceiling will take at least 6 weeks to do alone while juggling work and my kids (not enough hours in the day). But, if you are in Hawaii I'll be glad to have you over as well as anyone else that's been chiming in on this thread. I have a total of 9 Fortress seats (sitting in boxes) that can be filled minus the front center seat biggrin.gif
Edited by psychdoc - 3/22/13 at 11:40pm
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post #229 of 336
3/22/13 at 11:34pm
Thread Starter 
Updated photo of soffit...it's getting there...smile.gif

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post #230 of 336
3/23/13 at 12:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMcG View Post

Jim - Post 141 covers your question on how psychdoc is sound sealing the receptacle boxes, fyi.

I knew it must have been discussed given the attention to detail doc is paying! I guess if you skip a page you're going to miss some things. One thing I wish I did missed was seeing that stack of MDF! It reminded me of a movie set that I worked on, "The Santa Clause" with Tim Allen (he had a drug conviction and needed a special permit to get into Canada for the shoot. (I don't know why, we seem to let everybody else in.)) A similar size pile was glued together and sculpted into "shapes" for set dressing. This was in a huge warehouse with about 50 carpenters "working". The guys made so much dust we kicked them outside. It was winter and about -15 C (5 F). We let them in at break and lunch after vacuuming off. rolleyes.gif Horrible stuff to work with. I hope you wore a mask while cutting at least! Unless you have the vacuum to go with that Festool saw. They make nice toys!

Any thoughts on the staggered wall/ceiling joint with gap and acoustic seal to maintain the floating ceiling? Is there an explanation as to why the "straight" joint is "better"? Did I miss another page somewhere? I did read that the caulking has a mass equivalent to that of DW. Sorry, it just seems that if you are putting this much work into building up the mass that the weak point is a single bead of caulking that won't be contiguous through even half the thickness of the 1 3/8" of ceiling material. Or is it simply to actually allow movement with a single bead and that several beads would make it too stiff?
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post #231 of 336
3/23/13 at 12:38am
Thread Starter 
Hi Jim,

I actually didn't wear a mask but I've been wearing one a lot lately. I realized I should have near the end of dealing with all that MDF after coughing up a bunch of junk and my breathing being a little off. You'd think that I'd have more common sense being that I've got a medical degree..... rolleyes.gif Hopefully that is one lesson someone can learn vicariously.

You absolutely can do a staggered ceiling but I honestly don't think it would have added much in my situation. Remember, your edges have to be perfectly on the halfway point on the hat channel. Being close is a failure! It has to be perfect. If you're off, all the weight is just begging to rip off of the edge which may cause a chain reaction and bring down a whole panel and drywall on your head (see an example of that in an earlier post regarding drywall that wasn't securely attached before lowering the lift). With a bunch staggered you're cutting and possibly adding more total seams to the ceiling (which is not a good thing). In the end, I wouldn't change what I did but I'm sure there are many opinions here. If I did this for a job and got comfortable doing this all day long year after year I may do things differently. Difference between hypothetical and reality.

As far as the caulking bead goes, it is quite deep. After each layer a full bead is applied. Waiting until the end of the full construction would be a mistake, there is no way you'd push the goo all the way back. Sikaflex is great.... one application and you are done (with each layer). WIth the cheapo stuff I had to reapply a bead a couple of weeks later.
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post #232 of 336
3/23/13 at 3:34pm
Thread Starter 
Two down, four to go....

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post #233 of 336
3/23/13 at 6:03pm
Awesome
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post #234 of 336
3/23/13 at 9:41pm
Hi Doc
If you can get them, use the 3M N95 masks (mod 8511) with 2 elastics and a valve for exhalation. The valve really does make a difference on how tired you are at the end of the day! But, that saw can be hooked up to a vacuum and keep most of the dust out of the air and from getting through the house.

MDF and particle board used to be full of urea formaldehyde. The story we got up here is that the US government took the ban off the UFy because the law suits were going to be too expensive. confused.gif As you probably know it was in everything from particle board furniture to carpeting. Up here the government said, "Oops, you are going to have to pay to take that insulation out of your house that we recommended and helped pay to put it in...and sorry your house is worth 20% less, if you can sell it, because it is on title that it had it at one point."

Next time...With that Festool saw and fence you wouldn't have had any problem cutting straight and square. The DW cut ends on the 1/2 sheet go to the wall on either end of the run, yes, so the factory joints go together. Just sayin.biggrin.gif However, once the soffit is up, it looks like the DW butt joints are hidden, so it doesn't much matter. (by the way I've been a contractor for 30 years - kind of a house doctor.)

So, are you wondering whether the 1/4" sapele will have sound issues? green glue it to the other ply with a few brad nails on alternating slight angles(18 gauge finishing nailer).

Just curious, someone mentioned it and the wire does look yellow...does your code require 12 gauge for lighting circuits? Canada is 14 gauge for a 15 amp lighting or basic receptacle circuit. 12 is so much harder to work with when trying to shove 2 or 3 pairs into a box.

It doesn't look like the job of a first timer. Pat yourself on the back!

Jim
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post #235 of 336
3/23/13 at 11:01pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks guys! I went hard all day long and got all six columns done so I can go out tonight to a car show in Honolulu... it's fun once a year to jump in all the new cars and not get a long sales talk. It's especially fun jumping into some high end cars I'll never want to blow that much money on.

Jim- thanks for the tips. I was thinking about GG as well. I'll need to scope out an 18 gauge nailer... I only have a 16 gauge currently.

I had a bunch of wire left over from the rest of house. Yes, it's the thick stuff but heck.... why not a little overkill, right? I have strong fingers and can make it work.

Tomorrow it's back to the grind.... wink.gif
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post #236 of 336
3/25/13 at 8:01pm
Thread Starter 
Area of the soffit that needed to be lowered to accommodate the FOSI starfield light engine. The soffit could not be this low all the way around due to the door height.



The screen is back. The rough cutout works well so far.

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post #237 of 336
3/25/13 at 8:16pm
Is that Grayhawk material?
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post #238 of 336
3/25/13 at 8:23pm
Thread Starter 
Yes, it's a Stewart Grayhawk, around 139" wide. No complaints at all. The image with my VPL-VW1000ES is spectacular.
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post #239 of 336
3/26/13 at 12:04am
Thread Starter 
Ok, I'm going to throw this out there for anyone who's been down a similar path. I need to place a few outlets/gang box's in the middle of OC703 acoustic panels wrapped in fabric that are 2" thick but will be a total of 2.5" away from the wall. First problem: I can't find any gang box extenders 2.5" deep. Second problem: how do you manage the hole and make the fabric stay tight and look good? Thanks in advance to anyone who has answers to those two questions.
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post #240 of 336
3/26/13 at 2:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

Ok, I'm going to throw this out there for anyone who's been down a similar path. I need to place a few outlets/gang box's in the middle of OC703 acoustic panels wrapped in fabric that are 2" thick but will be a total of 2.5" away from the wall. First problem: I can't find any gang box extenders 2.5" deep. Second problem: how do you manage the hole and make the fabric stay tight and look good? Thanks in advance to anyone who has answers to those two questions.

 

Can you just attach the box to the surface of the wall instead of behind it?  You will need to frame the opening with small (maybe 2x2) pieces of wood on the frame and wrap and staple the fabric around those. The cover plates will cover the edges.  I can't remember where at the moment, but there are several builds that show this technique.

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