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Hawaii Home Theater Construction - Page 14

post #391 of 755
Use impaling clips, not adhesive. They hold tightly, are quick to install and are cheap!

http://www.atsacoustics.com/acoustical-impaling-clips.html

http://www.soundaway.com/Impaling_Clips_p/26002.htm

http://www.acoustimac.com/impaling-clips-installation-hardware-for-acoustic-panels/
Edited by TMcG - 6/10/13 at 6:13pm
post #392 of 755
+1 on the impaling clips.
post #393 of 755
+2. You can also put a little dab of construction adhesive on the spikes before impaling the OC703, if you are at all concerned about the panels coming off.

Also, you need to be a little careful around the use of spray adhesive on the fiberglass panels. If you get spray adhesive on the front it will start to reflect the high frequencies you are trying to trap.
post #394 of 755
You can find some similar pieces at home depot.http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-1-in-x-4-in-Mending-Plate-MP14/100375103
They come in various sizes and you nigh have to drill a mounting hole, but might be faster than ordering them online.
post #395 of 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13 View Post

You can find some similar pieces at home depot.http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-1-in-x-4-in-Mending-Plate-MP14/100375103
They come in various sizes and you nigh have to drill a mounting hole, but might be faster than ordering them online.

The fine print: "This item cannot be shipped to the following state(s): AK,GU,HI,PR,VI"

Sometimes it's Hell living in Hawaii, ain't it? rolleyes.gif
post #396 of 755
Maybe the Honolulu Home Deport has them already?
post #397 of 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by acras13 View Post

You can find some similar pieces at home depot.http://www.homedepot.com/p/Simpson-Strong-Tie-1-in-x-4-in-Mending-Plate-MP14/100375103
They come in various sizes and you nigh have to drill a mounting hole, but might be faster than ordering them online.

I used a slightly larger Simpson mending plate to hang OC703 around my theater and it works fine. The one caveat with these, is that the spikes are shorter than those on the impaling clips TMcG mentions. I don't know if it's worth the extra cost and shipping. The Simpson plates or something similar should be available at any Home Depot.
Edited by BllDo - 6/11/13 at 4:10am
post #398 of 755
Other than the suggested spray http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--3M-Super-77-Adhesive-16-75-oz--1018.html Which is probably just a contact cement. I have seen it go up with a few squiggles of caulking such as construction adhesive. Basically the board has pretty good integrity and is light. Use enough caulk on the back to distribute the load (50-75% coverage when "squished") and push it in and slide it around a bit to spread the bead. If there is a gap to maintain around the perimeter, put shims at the bottom until the glue sets (24hrs) so that it doesn't slide...the contact cement wouldn't need the shims.

One of my clients was going to give me a Border Collie... My wife's latest excuse for why I can't have a dog, is because of the leather furniture. ...Basically, she's afraid of dogs. Something I didn't think to include on the checklist before getting married.frown.gif Remember the movie, "Diner"? Her test was backpacking.wink.gif

You've got an almost complete theater AND a dog! Sigh.

Your rate of progress is phenomenal! You're truly an inspiration to get out of this chair!biggrin.gif
post #399 of 755
Thread Starter 
Great discussion, thanks guys!!!!! I had to look up what a "simpson mending plate" is and suddenly I remembered seeing them in the rafters when the addition was being made. This might be the best solution as the other great solutions suggested are a little more difficult to come by in Hawaii. Yes, Hawaii is paradise, but getting things out here is difficult and shipping, if needed, is very expensive. For the impaling clips, I can only get one shipping quote to Hawaii and the shipping cost is more than the cost of the clips. mad.gif The simpson mending plates might be the easiest pathway forward used in conjunction with a small bead of caulking on small portions of the edges. Jim.... the caulking you suggested as an added element... are you talking about something like liquid nails or just plain old caulking?

On to the next question for the experts out there..... I've read that many people suggest leaving a small gap between the backside of their OC703 and the wall (I'll start re-reading on this topic to see what I can dig up). This is supposed to improve the performance of the acoustic panel. Any opinions on this? I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have some small scrap 1/4" strips of Sapele under the simpson mending plates and at the locations of the caulking bead if it really helps....

jim.... I’ve heard that the contractor’s house is the last place to get worked on. I’m sure what has taken me several months you could do in weeks. Jump up and get ‘er done, you won’t regret it. I can’t say that I agree my pace has been "phenomenal", more like the turtle (slow and steady) but your comment is appreciated. biggrin.gif

On the topic of dogs: Nui is great and the kids love him too. As long as you stay away from the large high energy dogs I don't think you have much to worry about. If you get a dog just take them out and play with them and get them exhausted and they will just want to lay down when in the house. Just make sure the home theater door is closed and you are good to go. Babysit a friend's dog that is five years old or older and you'll see they sit around and sleep most of the day unless you want to play with them. Border Collies are brilliant and easily trainable. My friend had one and it somehow always herded us to the back door and kicked us out of the house so we would play with him (we were his sheep). Those dogs are so smart that it will likely train you. wink.gif
post #400 of 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

the caulking you suggested as an added element... are you talking about something like liquid nails or just plain old caulking?

Use small dabs of adhesive caulking on the tips of the spikes if you go this route. One of the really small tubes should be enough to do your entire room. Get clear, if possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

On to the next question for the experts out there..... I've read that many people suggest leaving a small gap between the backside of their OC703 and the wall (I'll start re-reading on this topic to see what I can dig up). This is supposed to improve the performance of the acoustic panel. Any opinions on this? I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to have some small scrap 1/4" strips of Sapele under the simpson mending plates and at the locations of the caulking bead if it really helps....

Essentially raising the panels off the wall will give you more absorption since you are exposing a greater surface area. It also defeats the point of using impaling clips. I'm not sure how functional this would be in your situation since your panels are recessing between that nice wood veneer. Here are a couple of links, the first of which is here on AVS and has TONS of links on the subject:

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1312693/diy-construction-methods-of-hang-able-acoustic-panels-not-fixed-frames

http://recordinghacks.com/2011/12/13/mounting-acoustic-panels-variable-air-gap/

My personal non-professional opinion is to mount the panels flat to the wall and then stretch your fabric over the panel, leaving about 1/8" to 1/4" gap between the face of the OC703 and the back side of the fabric so the texture of the fiberglass doesn't transmit through the fabric. It may be too late now, but given the scale of your investment it would be worthwhile to have your room professionally engineered (which is what I thought you were already doing). There's something to be said for the engineered panel solutions over just absorption with rigid fiberglass. The recommendations may be to put scrim over top of the panels to not absorb the high frequencies. There could be recommendations for deeper panels in key spots. This is one area with my theater that I don't even think about and hire out because the amount to know is too great and we don't have the benefit of advanced software modeling programs that take everything in your room into account.
post #401 of 755
Thread Starter 
Thanks TMcG! While my patient continues to fill out her intake form I've been reading a bunch of posts on this subject. I'm seeing that a 3-4" air gap can increase the efficacy of the panel and reduce the sound by a full octave. That isn't an option but I sill think I'll do a 1/4" air gap for kicks as you can just mount the clips on top of a 1/4" piece of wood and it will push everything else out. My mounting frames with GOM fabric that I made already account for this distance and still leaves a small air gap between the cloth and the OC703 (I think, I'll need to double check).

I was originally thinking of using a full Kinetics acoustic panel package but I saw a fully completed acoustics computer model that they generated with all the graphs and data and copied as much useable information as I could considering it was a similar sized room. I then used some other helpful formulas found on some of the acoustic company's homepages to further refine my plan. I think at the end of the day it would have been cost prohibitive to get Kinetics' full layout. Instead I decided to buy some megatraps from Realtraps for the four corners
http://www.realtraps.com/p_megatraps.htm (which were not cheap) and then make the wall panels myself (a good overall compromise).

This is one area that is very interesting but also full of different opinions....
post #402 of 755
I made the last post not realizing that we had reached the bottom of the page and that you had some great suggestions already on the next page. The construction adhesive caulking that I was referring to is PL Premium, similar to Liquid Nails, although anything that claims to have adhesive qualities would do...even silicone. I don't claim to have insight into the gap issue, just how to stick something up and keep it up. In sound control ducting a similar rigid glass panel is glued and has a number of rivets into the sheet metal. If you have OSB or something with holding power behind the DW, you could also use a number of roofing nails to hold it in place and even leave them with a gap for the 1/4" space...or concrete board screws (which have a large bugle head) so you could adjust for gap. ...Or a washer on a regular screw.

"Phenomenal" is a relative word. Compared to the pace at which a contractor works on his own house...your pace is phenomenal!biggrin.gif

The Border Collie is actually about 7 years old and being retired from Sheep Dog competition. I know what you mean. It is hilarious going to this house, "Bette" and her 12 Compadres "love" to herd me around the house, yard or where ever they want! What are you going to say...there are 13 of them! But yes, Bette, when not competing with the others is a very calm, loving animal. Always at my side (am I an easy mark or what?) with her head against my leg ready for an ear rub. But, not wife compatible.frown.gif She, who must be obeyed, wouldn't go for the Chocolate Brown Lab puppy that another client wanted to give me a few years ago either. She said I could have a dog when we moved to a house. We've been here 21 years.... Which is also when I started planning a home theater...or at that point a dedicated room with a large TV and a bunch of chairs!biggrin.gif 5.1? What's that?
post #403 of 755
I think the screws or nails for mounting might be an issue, the heads shining through the fabric covers. I think that is why people suggest those impaling clips, but this is based on reading, not first hand knowledge.
Jim, could you set up an elaborate scheme where you are "injured"and require the help of an assistance dog? Fake a seizure? There are seizure detecting dogs. Not saying you should take a trained dog from someone who needs one, but if you could be convincing, how could your wife refuse you a service dog? I'm glad I've never been in your shoes, I've almost always had a dog, I've even kicked girlfriends out for fighting over who got to sleep closer to me. My big guy is insane and stubborn as hell, and my little princess means the world to me. She lives with my ex girlfriend, but I get to have her visit whenever I want and she is the most incredible therapy there is ( no offense to your profession, psych).
BTW, on topic, I agree with Jim on your progress, and comments about contractors houses, my livingroom has looked like a construction zone for over a year, work on a little, change something, work on everyone else's houses then not want to work on my place. The box by my front door has had two switches and the spare wires hanging out of it for 3 months now, no cover plate. So your progress is stunning, can't wait to see more pictures, maybe of Nui laying the carpet. biggrin.gif
post #404 of 755
Thread Starter 
I've got the perfect solution, no seizure needed. Acras already said it: THERAPY DOG!! As a psychiatrist I"ll give ya a note stating you need one. You can pick your own diagnosis. Perfect! wink.gif.

Seriously though, you have an opportunity to get a trained border collie that you already like and she likes you????? That sounds like the ultimate dog! Time to ask what it's worth to your wife. At the end of the day, barring an allergy to dogs, everything is open to negotiation. If everything else fails..... Plan B... We start your wife on meds and raise the dose until she says yes. biggrin.gif

Nui, on the other hand, has been nothing but lazy..... refusing to help and only chiming in when he sees I've messed things up. smile.gif. He's still awesome though.

It sounds like you both have the skills.... Get to work. You won't regret it! biggrin.gif

I bought some Simpson mending plates yesterday. The spikes are pretty small so I may need to combine them with a caulking adhesive. I'll know more very soon (having seats, sound, and projection set up has stalled me out.... Temporarily eek.gif ).
post #405 of 755
Thread Starter 
Ok, this is what I did. Too many? About right? Needing glue also (my thoughts)? It turns out that I will have a 1/2" air gap behind the OC703 for whatever gains that will get me......

post #406 of 755
Seriously though, you have an opportunity to get a trained border collie that you already like and she likes you????? That sounds like the ultimate dog! Time to ask what it's worth to your wife. At the end of the day, barring an allergy to dogs, everything is open to negotiation. If everything else fails..... Plan B... We start your wife on meds and raise the dose until she says yes. biggrin.gif

Holy crap Psych , you just made me shoot milk out my nose laughing , and I haven't had any milk in a couple months!
As far as the mending plates go , the answer I have to all your questions is , "maybe" . You could slap a panel up and see how it does for a day or so then work from there so any mistakes are limited to one panel
post #407 of 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

Ok, this is what I did. Too many? About right? Needing glue also (my thoughts)? It turns out that I will have a 1/2" air gap behind the OC703 for whatever gains that will get me......


The recommendation is 4-5 per 2'x4' panel, so your layout seems reasonable. I did a quick bit of digging for you and found the "professional" impaling clips have 5/8" in total depth, which looks about like what you have. One of the differences is that it appears to me the impaling clips have a bit of a barb at the end of each tip....I'm not sure if the mending plates you bought have something similar or not. But the biggest difference with the impaling clips is that they have opposing tines vs. ones that all go in the same direction. Here's a pic:



So I can imagine maybe needing a dab of adhesive to get it to stay on, but I would try without first.

I'll say it again before you get too deep into things....I'd forgo the spacers to lift the panel, mount the mending plates directly to the wall and allow some of the "friction fit" of the panel in recess help hold the panel in position. I can't imagine that gap giving any functional benefit. And whatever the final acoustic result of mounting the panel flat, either positive or negative, can be dealt with appropriately through Audyssey / EQ (I know, it's not a panacea...but at least it's something!).
post #408 of 755
Thread Starter 
TMcG.... thanks! It's surprising that the spikes on all of these versions are so small. I think you are right, a dab of glue might do the trick. On the air gap I was still torn. It will take me a little extra time but as long as the OC703 stays rigid and doesn't sag I was thinking that it still might offer "some" (being relative) benefit. Still, I didn't want to waste my time either so I sent out an email to the helpful folks at "Realtraps" where I bought my megatraps and posed the same question to them. They have lots of articles about this topic and lots of "how to" segments. Hopefully they won't mind me posting their comment.....

"Yes, all standard velocity absorbers and absorptive panels will benefit
from an airgap behind them. Broadly speaking, the air gap should be
equal to the trap's thickness -- or as close to that as you can get. So
if you are making 2" panels, try to make the gap 2" also, but if 1/2" is
all you can manage, then that's better than flush against the wall."

So I might do both, get any gain from that little air gap as well as use Audyssey (which I actually like very much).

F/u on my attempt at levity in a previous post above.... Jim, I hope you realize I was totally joking about all of that. What I wrote was so absurd I was hoping no one would take it seriously. smile.gif

Thanks all.
post #409 of 755
So are you thinking about trying to get closer to 2" of gap or are you going to stick to around 1/2" ? I have a mad scientist idea for mounting the panels more securely than the mending plates , I can't give details because I have to find the parts that are in my head , unless that is the only place they exist , in which case , do you take walk -in patients? rolleyes.gif I'm going to take a wander through Home Depot , special trip just for this , luckily its not to far from home , and one of the girls that works there has a crush and always gives me a hug .
post #410 of 755
Now that you mention it acras13, my back is feeling kind of broken...

Psychdoc, I'm disappointed. I must admit that I had the same response as acras13 and then realized how absolutely brilliant your scheme is. Now, you tell me you were joking? Sigh! The medication thing totally worked for me! If fact listening to Marlene complain about her student's writing skills (she teaches at York U), she might enjoy a little medication. biggrin.gif Sadly, she doesn't understand the therapeutic advantages of have a dog around.

Seriously, I think you guys are on to something. I'll report back!smile.gif

Yes, back to the topic. The cement board screws are gray ceramic coated, but any screw/washer could be painted with flat paint to blend in. Drywall screws are flat black already.

Looking at the mending plates, and knowing how tough the glass panel is, you may have problem pushing it onto all of the plates and keeping the small "spikes" in. I'd consider the screws. As suggested, play with one panel. As far as the gap/no gap and size. Screws would be none permanent and you could experiment with no gap or any size gap by backing off the screws. Put the spacers in afterwards when you determine how thick they should be. I could see 6 screws holding up that panel. 3 across the top to hang the panel and 3 across the bottom to stabilize it.
post #411 of 755
P.S. looking at the picture of the "professional impaling clip"...I wouldn't want to lean against the panel or lose my footing in the dark and fall against it. I think you'd understand how they got their name.eek.gif
post #412 of 755
Thread Starter 
Shockingly, those little teeth actually grab on to the OC703 pretty well. There is no glue so we'll see how long it will take before it falls off.

post #413 of 755
I used those plates in my HT for close to two years without issue. I think you'll be good.
post #414 of 755
Not the brilliant idea I was thinking of, buy here goes. Run some of these into the panel
IMG_20130613_154539.jpg 1378k .jpg file
I'd go probably 2" in from the corners, if they are too long for the thickness of the panel, run then part way in, take them out and cut some of the tip. Run the screw into the anchor leaving it whatever distance you want to space the panel off the wall, buy longer screw's it you want it father away from the wall.
Then on the wall
IMG_20130613_153204.jpg 1600k .jpg file

You could probably use some of those picture hangars that are supposed to hook on a nail in the wall, mounted upside down on the wall for the screw heads to hang on too. Spacers for this could be cut out of 1/2" PVC pipe slip over the screw with a fender washer against the panel to keep the pipe from compressing into the panel.
post #415 of 755
Thread Starter 
Acras, I think we need to schedule a session. wink.gif You are quite the mad scientist, indeed. I've read your post a few times and I still don't get it but I will definitely take a trip to HD to figure your plan out!

BllDo - Did you use glue on the simpson mending plate?
post #416 of 755
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychdoc View Post

Acras, I think we need to schedule a session. wink.gif You are quite the mad scientist, indeed. I've read your post a few times and I still don't get it but I will definitely take a trip to HD to figure your plan out!

BllDo - Did you use glue on the simpson mending plate?

Basically hanging a picture ( panel) with the hardware reversed . The self tapping drywall anchors should hold pretty well in the fiberglass panels ( test in a spare piece) . I don't have any keyholes handy , but I'll try to set up an example of what I'm explaining here in a bit.
You probably don't want to schedule with me , my first therapist started going to therapy shortly after seeing me , then stopped practicing for at least a few years . biggrin.gif
post #417 of 755
If the mending plates work, what's the point of trying to use drywall anchors? How would these mount in reverse and be expected to have any holding power? I must be missing something....or need therapy myself! biggrin.gif
post #418 of 755
people have been voicing concern about the mending plates , the length of the barbs actually having good hold. the drywall anchors , installed in the panel would have much more holding power , the entire threaded section of the anchor holding in the panel , put the screw in it , then a keyhole mounted on the wall. Pictures coming later since it doesn't seem like I'm explaining this correctly
post #419 of 755
OK, hopefully this explains my idea better. sorry the images have to be clicked, never posted pics here before and that's what I found.
Self taping drywall anchor into acoustic panel
IMG_20130614_185934.jpg 1662k .jpg file
IMG_20130614_185957.jpg 1750k .jpg file IMG_20130614_190257.jpg 1144k .jpg file

Then attach the keyhole I showed in the previous post to the wall. I don't have one handy, but the keyhole mounted on the wall is represented here

IMG_20130614_190315.jpg 1458k .jpg file

Then you would

IMG_20130614_190328.jpg 1563k .jpg file
IMG_20130614_190422.jpg 1075k .jpg file
IMG_20130614_190513.jpg 1402k .jpg file
You would want to probably do 4 corners, but 2 at the top and a small block toward the bottom to keep it plumb would work, 2 anchors would easily hold the weight. I only did one to show the concept , and I didn't cut the tip off it so it wouldn't penetrate the front of the panel , but they are easy to cut off with dykes or sidecutters.
Edited by acras13 - 6/14/13 at 7:34pm
post #420 of 755
Nope, no glue. Held just fine. Glue certainly isn't going to hurt and for a couple bucks it might be a nice little extra belts and suspenders insurance.

If you are thinking you want a little more holding power, you can run a roofing washing and long screw through the panel like Moggie did below either in place of or in addition to the mending plates
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1117148/saga-of-the-old-vic/300#post_18225590
Edited by BllDo - 6/14/13 at 8:58pm
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