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Subwoofer upgrade

post #1 of 27
4/23/12 at 5:57am
Thread Starter 
Ok guys. So currently I am using a Hsu STF-2 and am pretty happy with it. I inquired awhile back about an upgrade and got some good advice (skip the small upgrade and go with a higher end sub). I have it narrowed down to the VTF-3 or the SVS PB12-NSD. My biggest question is that I'm not necessarily looking for the 20hz, room shaking LFE that bass junkies crave. I actually am content with the amount of bass I have now. I do watch a lot of concert blurays, though, and I am looking for more impact/performance music wise. Will either of those two subs be better compared to what I have now? Will I "feel" the bass drum kicking me more than with the STF-2? My room is about 18 x 16 open on one side. Thanks.
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post #2 of 27
4/23/12 at 6:08am
Yes
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post #3 of 27
4/23/12 at 8:02am
I just got the PB12-nsd and it is excellent for movies and music. I have re-discovering my sacd collection
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post #4 of 27
4/23/12 at 8:30am
Thread Starter 
Although I have a Hsu now, I'm kinda leaning towards the SVS. I like the 5 year warranty on the driver and amp.
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post #5 of 27
4/23/12 at 12:26pm
Never heard but read that the VTF-3 with Turbo kicks arse!
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post #6 of 27
4/23/12 at 9:12pm
they don't sell the turbo anymore. The VTF3 hits so hard it doesn't need it though. I went from a STF2 to a VTF3, it was a very substantial step up.
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post #7 of 27
4/24/12 at 5:23am
Thread Starter 
Shady, how was the step up with music? I understand the better HT aspect with the VTF-3 hitting the sub 20hz area, but how was it with music. At normal volumes was there any more impact compared to the STF 2? The reason I ask is because a lot of my listening is at night when the kids are asleep. My kids are older and their rooms are 2 floors up so it's not like I have to be real quiet. The point is I'm not so concerned about high output at reference volumes. I just want to know if the upgrade is noticeable on daily use at normal listening levels. I'm really interested in the quality of the bass I guess vs shaking the house. I've been struggling with this decision for a few months now. I just want to be sure before I go through the hassle and spend the $$.

Since you have had both, I value your opinion. How was the quality of the bass with the STF-2 vs VTF-3? Is there a tonal difference (tighter, more "feeling") or is it mainly output. I need a sub that handles both HT and music equally well.

Sorry for the questions. Hope I relayed my thoughts accurately. Thanks.
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post #8 of 27
4/24/12 at 5:06pm
if you listen to music more you might want to look at a sealed option as they typically have better mid bass punch or "kick" that you may be looking for. Not sure your budget, but you may want to look at the sealed HSU or the Epik Empire.
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post #9 of 27
4/24/12 at 6:12pm
For music use I reccommend epik empire over svs.
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post #10 of 27
4/24/12 at 6:37pm
Thread Starter 
That's part of my dilemma. I use about 50/50. I want a sub that works well for HT, but also gives that extra "kick" in the chest with bass drums on music/bluray concert discs. So you guys seem to think a sealed sub may be more the way for me to go?
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post #11 of 27
4/25/12 at 2:56am
The VTF3 was certainly better in every way. At low volumes I suppose they sound alike, but the higher you turn the volume, the more apparent that the VTF3 was a more capable and better sub. It certainly will give you the extra punch that you are looking for, I think more so than the PB12, especially in max output mode. The VTF15h get all the press from Hsu nowadays, but the VTF3 really packs a wollop. If you really want that punch in the chest feeling, get a VTF3, and run it in near field in max output mode with the bass hot on your receiver, the kick drums will give you a heart attack.
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post #12 of 27
4/25/12 at 4:44am
Thread Starter 
Thanks. I appreciate you taking the time to share your impressions. Looking to purchase in the next couple months. After a little more research, I am leaning back towards the Hsu. Opinion seems to be that the SVS is a little more HT oriented and the Hsu a little more musical. I'm sure they are both great subs though.
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post #13 of 27
4/25/12 at 7:19am
How about adding a second Hsu
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post #14 of 27
4/28/12 at 8:41am
Thread Starter 
Ok. So I've decided to up my budget and go with the VTF-15 in rosenut. Looking to purchase in June. I read the shootout on here between the CS18, Rythmik, Epik, ED, and the Hsu and it seems like it was the best sub there to the average guy. Those two did a great job with that thread. I've read the S&V review among others and they rave about it. What bothers me a little is the Audioholics review makes it sound like a POS. I tried to sift through all the posts regarding it. Whatever was the final outcome? Seems as though it was remeasured and they stand by the fact little changed. They say it has a weak amp with minimal output below 20hz and a cheap driver. This contradicts everything else I have read. I really want this sub being a current Hsu owner and just need a little reassurance before I purchase. Anyone that can sum it up for me without having to read 1000 posts?
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post #15 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:00am
It doesn't have a tremendously powerful amp, and it's driver isn't an extremely heavy duty one. What seems to be the case is the driver is a lighter, higher sensitivity one, so not a lot of energy is needed to get it to blaze. Its higher efficiency has several pluses, a couple of which is it isn't an energy hog, and it will likely be more reliable than a sub with beefy amp and a very high excursion driver. The down-side of a not so high excursion means it isn't an absolute beast in output in the infrasonic frequencies. I think the guys who are getting pretty good measurements in their room are doing so due to the relatively gradual roll-off in the 20s hz region. All in all, the thing looks like a terrific sub, and would probably be my choice if I was limited to $1k.
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post #16 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

Ok. So I've decided to up my budget and go with the VTF-15 in rosenut. Looking to purchase in June. I read the shootout on here between the CS18, Rythmik, Epik, ED, and the Hsu and it seems like it was the best sub there to the average guy. Those two did a great job with that thread. I've read the S&V review among others and they rave about it. What bothers me a little is the Audioholics review makes it sound like a POS. I tried to sift through all the posts regarding it. Whatever was the final outcome? Seems as though it was remeasured and they stand by the fact little changed. They say it has a weak amp with minimal output below 20hz and a cheap driver. This contradicts everything else I have read. I really want this sub being a current Hsu owner and just need a little reassurance before I purchase. Anyone that can sum it up for me without having to read 1000 posts?

I have had the sub for several months it does the job quite well with music and movies .
I have not experienced any weird noises or failures that being said if I had to make my purchase all over again it would be the same sub
Depending on your room size and shape the lower frequencies are there and surprisingly with some good authority.
It will not be the first time I bought a product that all mags and reviews did not give it a shinning review and the other way around also.
The proof would be how well the rest of the owners of this sub like it on this forum and others is there better yes but at a considerable higher costs IMO.
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post #17 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:44am
Thread Starter 
I really want to stay around the $1000 mark. Are there any others even close that I am missing? The Rythmik 15 and SVS is a little more than I want to spend. Is the ULS 15 any better than the VTF 15? I know it's sealed but you don't hear as much about it as the VTF. I've done quite a bit of research and I'm fairly comfortable with the purchase. I just want a few opinions to reinforce my decision.
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post #18 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:49am
what do you not like about the Epic Empire?

Your focus appears to be on music, concerts, etc. You said you are not looking for 20hz slam...Your budget is $1000

Epik Empire is like the little brother to the Seaton Submersive HP. If music was my primary goal and my budget and criteria matched yours I'd be going that path.

Disclaimer --- I really like the HSU VTF-15H and there is nothing wrong with that choice either!!! I just remember that John Mayer clip on the Epik Empire was on of my favorite demos of the 2011 subwoofer meet for some reason. I thought the concert clip on the Epik Empire sounded better than it did on the pro audio Yamaha CW218V subs which had two 18" drivers and a pro amp. I fully expected the Yamaha to easily win that matchup - so I was very surprised and impressed with the Epik on the clip.
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post #19 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:51am
Another consideration. The Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus is on sale through Monday for $499 shipped. Dual subs could be nice for smoothing out the frequency response in your room.
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post #20 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:56am
Thread Starter 
Actually I live in Illinois so a 3hr drive to pick it up would save the shipping cost. I am quite interested in the Empire but it seems like people on here either love them or think they are mediocre. Also have read about some amp issues. The design, size, and made in state are very appealing to me though. Honestly the Empire is 2nd on the list next to the Hsu. I keep going back to the Epik website to check them out.
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post #21 of 27
4/28/12 at 10:59am
Thread Starter 
And I have been looking at the outlaw website this weekend as well. How does the plus compare to the EX? They look very similar spec wise but the EX seems to get more attention.

VTF15, Epik empire, dual Outlaw pluses??

If you had $1000 to spend on a sub, which do you choose?

I'm sure any of the three best my STF-2. The wife is just tired of the upgraditis. Whatever I get I have to keep for 5-10 years. At least that's how long I told her I would keep my new Paradigms.
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post #22 of 27
4/28/12 at 11:05am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post

what do you not like about the Epic Empire?

Your focus appears to be on music, concerts, etc. You said you are not looking for 20hz slam...Your budget is $1000

Epik Empire is like the little brother to the Seaton Submersive HP. If music was my primary goal and my budget and criteria matched yours I'd be going that path.

Disclaimer --- I really like the HSU VTF-15H and there is nothing wrong with that choice either!!! I just remember that John Mayer clip on the Epik Empire was on of my favorite demos of the 2011 subwoofer meet for some reason. I thought the concert clip on the Epik Empire sounded better than it did on the pro audio Yamaha CW218V subs which had two 18" drivers and a pro amp. I fully expected the Yamaha to easily win that matchup - so I was very surprised and impressed with the Epik on the clip.

You are very knowledgeable and have a crazy amount of experience with subs. I value your opinion greatly. If you needed an all around performer that excelled in music and HT in my price range, which would you choose? Having heard a submersive, captivator, orbit shifter plus the subs I'm looking at, you are the man to ask.
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post #23 of 27
4/28/12 at 11:23am
I love my Hsu subwoofers and their customer service is excellent.
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post #24 of 27
4/28/12 at 11:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjsiv View Post

You are very knowledgeable and have a crazy amount of experience with subs. I value your opinion greatly. If you needed an all around performer that excelled in music and HT in my price range, which would you choose? Having heard a submersive, captivator, orbit shifter plus the subs I'm looking at, you are the man to ask.

ha...

Will your wife let you swing a mini vacation in May to attend the subwoofer meet in southern California? I'd suggest the airline ticket price might be worth the expense to hear another roundup of subs and get a feel for what you like --- helping curb that upgraditis... The problem with relying on just one opinion --- like mine is that the sound of subs is pretty subjective. Which is why I can feel a SVS, HSU, and Epik Empire sound totally different in the same room, same placement with no EQ --- YET they all have their respsective fans who think they clearly are the best!!! As you EQ these options in the same room to flatten response they begin to sound more alike. In the 2011 meet I didn't have much experience with many of the auditioned subs - they were new to me -- and I didn't have any real bias on what to expect, since I hadn't heard any of them except the ones I owned and the HSU VTF-15H. I just remember the SVS and Epik Empire sounding like two opposites sides of the pendulum swing for music and movies. I came out of hearing those two play and said aloud there was a night and day difference between those two subs sound. (uneq'ed in my room, and from my particular listening position --- which would definately have a unique frequency response from all the other listening positions) For music I preferred the Epik, for movies I preferred the SVS. Other's opinions didn't even necessarily line up with mine! LOTS of subjectivity in all matters -- -which is why hearing them for yourself in the same room on the same day is a huge plus for you as a perspective owner.

As to the Submersive, Captivators, Orbit Shifters etc. They are in another price league --- AND quite another performance league. If you really want to avoid upgraditis - - then you might want to save a bit longer. The Cap Pro pair I have now put an end to my upgraditis because I've not heard anything I personally and subjectively like better. Since I pretty much have subs in the top shelf tier of the ID world - then my next step is DIY if I decide to pursue further.

In truth man - any of the subs you are looking at and have been mentioned would probably make you very happy!!! and really --- if you weren't comparing them side to side you'd probably never know - nor care about the differences. As you implement EQ and setup your room appropriately the subs will begin to sound more alike yet.


As to two cheaper subs compared to a single higher quality sub --- I do really like the idea of two subs - but it doesn't alway ring true that two subs are better than one of a higher quality as you add the restrictive element of budget. I'd take a single JTR Captivator over my previously owned pair of SVS PB13 Ultras any day of the week.
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post #25 of 27
4/28/12 at 11:54am
Thread Starter 
I really appreciate the time you took to reply. Honestly I have it narrowed down to the Hsu or the Empire. The basement area is pretty much mine to do as I please, but the wife really liked the rosenut finish on the VTF-15 since it is about the size of a piece of furniture.

I understand and agree with most everything you have said. I think any of the subs in the $1000 range will make me quite happy. I am looking to do some setup improvements late June when the kids are visiting the in laws for a few weeks. It's my summer project. Adding a larger sub, new screen and integrating my new speakers into my room a little better.

As with anything, we want the best for our hard earned dollar. Sometimes audio nuts tend to nit pick the specs vs the enjoyment. I've got a month or two to decide. Any input is appreciated.
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post #26 of 27
4/28/12 at 11:38pm
I have a SVS PB12 NSD In a room about the size of yours. I think for what you are looking at any of the subs you have listed would make you very happy. BUT Do NOT go listen to a bunch of subs out of your price range. The next thing you know you will be saving all of your money to upgrade into the "big leagues".

Ask Archaea the 1st night we meet up I was talking about how I was really debating between the VTF-15 and the SVS Ultra. Now I don't even consider them. I have since heard both and I truly believe they are both great subs. But to me they are not a big enough jump from what I have after hearing what the next jump up can do.

As Archaea said the Submersive, Captivators, Orbit Shifters etc. are the big leagues and once you experience the differences its really hard to want anything else.
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post #27 of 27
4/29/12 at 6:12am
Thread Starter 
I could never bring myself to justify the $$ for the big leagues. Although I would love a submersive, I do have a budget to go by. $1000 is the upper limit for me. I appreciate all the input guys. It is really helping a lot.
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