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Sub rec for new setup please

post #1 of 25
4/25/12 at 3:54pm
Thread Starter 
I am fairly new to the home theater. Got my first set of speakers, Mirage nanosat theater in a box, about 3 years ago. In the process of upgrading and got a good deal on Energy CF-70s for fronts and a CC-10 center. Will most likely do CB-5's or CF-30's for 5.1 surround. I am probably 50% cinema, 30% gaming, and 20% or so music. Plan to drive it with a Denon 1712. I have a couple of questions for you more audio-inclined individuals.

First, a good sub (pref matching aesthetics to appease the wife) for this setup in the $200-300 range?

Second, the room is about 15' x 18' is this speaker setup overkill? If there is such a thing.

Have received a great deal of information from these forums but this is my first post so I apologize for any lack of appropriate posting etiquette.
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post #2 of 25
4/25/12 at 6:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

In the process of upgrading and got a good deal on Energy CF-70s for fronts and a CC-10 center. Will most likely do CB-5's or CF-30's for 5.1 surround. ... Plan to drive it with a Denon 1712.

Congrats on the new gear!

Quote:


First, a good sub (pref matching aesthetics to appease the wife) for this setup in the $200-300 range? ... I am probably 50% cinema, 30% gaming, and 20% or so music.

See this thread for a list of subs in your price range. IMO, something like the Energy S10.3 - when it's on sale - would be a good way to go.

Quote:


Second, the room is about 15' x 18' is this speaker setup overkill? If there is such a thing.

There is such a thing as overkill, but the gear you've got isn't overkill for your space. It should sound pretty sweet in there.

Hope this helps.
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post #3 of 25
4/26/12 at 5:25am
Thread Starter 
Really appreciate the quick response Eljay, you guys are the best!

Reviewed the link you pointed me to and a few others that branched off it. I think I am between 3-4 subs with what I know and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on which would be better for a primarily cinema/TV setup.

Dayton Sub 1200
Energy S10.3
Bic F12
or possibly PSW 505

Again, appreciate you taking your time to respond to these newbie questions.
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post #4 of 25
4/26/12 at 5:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

I think I am between 3-4 subs with what I know and was wondering if anyone could shed some light on which would be better for a primarily cinema/TV setup.

IMO, JimWilson might have the best opinion when it comes to "budget" subs.

That being said, I know - from personal experience - that the S10.3 is an impressive sub for its size and (on sale) price. I don't have personal experience with the F12 or the PSW505, but they appear to be good "bang for the buck" subs, too.

I think any one of the three will be a decent choice given your budget.
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post #5 of 25
4/26/12 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljaycanuck View Post

IMO, JimWilson might have the best opinion when it comes to "budget" subs. (I stepped on his toes once with my review of the Polk PSW10...and I don't want to tread there again! )

It was just a single gunshot wound. One scar. Big deal. Don't be such a sissy.

Like you I'd probably go with the Energy S10.3 first, because I favor clarity and definition above almost all else. The S10.3 seems to have those attributes, plus it's still pretty good with regards to extension. The Bic F12 is a close second; it seems to have a stronger output, and maybe even better extension then the S10.3, but doesn't appear to be quite as clean. The PSW 505 and Dayton Sub 1200 would bring up the rear in my order of preference.
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post #6 of 25
4/26/12 at 8:26pm
I would also add the PA-120, which some people have described as a little better than than the BIC F12. Here's the owners thread.
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post #7 of 25
4/27/12 at 6:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I would also add the PA-120, which some people have described as a little better than than the BIC F12. Here's the owners thread.

That's another good option. He should also probably consider the Cadence CSX12 Mk II.
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post #8 of 25
4/27/12 at 7:56am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for replys. I am considering all of these.

There is someone with a VTF-1 in the calssifieds section here as well. Would that be a viable option for my use/room size?

Also, I hadn't added before that the theater room has a rather large opening to the dining room as well as a normal door size opening to the kitchen. Not sure how much that will play into the ability of a sub to "fill" the room or if it should lean me more towards a 12" or higher powered unit.

Thanks for the replys. I'm gonna read more about the CSX-12 and the PA-120. I am almost to the point of increasing the budget a tad for qualities sake.
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post #9 of 25
4/27/12 at 8:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

Also, I hadn't added before that the theater room has a rather large opening to the dining room as well as a normal door size opening to the kitchen. Not sure how much that will play into the ability of a sub to "fill" the room or if it should lean me more towards a 12" or higher powered unit.

Potentially a lot. A subwoofer doesn't understand anything other then physical boundaries, so it's going to try and "pressurize" the entire space. Depending upon how big that additional area is a larger sub -- or even duals -- may be required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

I'm gonna read more about the CSX-12 and the PA-120. I am almost to the point of increasing the budget a tad for qualities sake.

I did a write up on the CSX12 here, which might be of some value to you.
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post #10 of 25
4/27/12 at 9:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

Thanks for replys. I am considering all of these.

There is someone with a VTF-1 in the calssifieds section here as well. Would that be a viable option for my use/room size?

Also, I hadn't added before that the theater room has a rather large opening to the dining room as well as a normal door size opening to the kitchen. Not sure how much that will play into the ability of a sub to "fill" the room or if it should lean me more towards a 12" or higher powered unit.

Thanks for the replys. I'm gonna read more about the CSX-12 and the PA-120. I am almost to the point of increasing the budget a tad for qualities sake.

Skip the used VTF-1. You want a warranty with your sub.

The Energy S10.3 has a significantly flatter frequency response than many of the lower cost subs including the Cadence CSX12.

Here is a page showing the frequency response of the S10.3:

http://www.hometheater.com/content/e...-labs-measures

Many of the low price subs like the LAVA and Cadence have a large peak at 63-70Hz which makes them more like mid-bass modules than true deep bass subs. The Energy doesn't suffer from that problem. Here is a link to a professional review of the Cadence in Sound&Vision:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/art...oofer?page=0,3

On the other hand, since you have a fairly large open space you might like a sub that has more output even if it is at the expense of accuracy. If you are willing to sacrifice flat frequency response for loudness, the Cadence can get pretty loud in the 50-100Hz range.
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post #11 of 25
4/27/12 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

Thanks for replys. I am considering all of these.

There is someone with a VTF-1 in the calssifieds section here as well. Would that be a viable option for my use/room size?

Also, I hadn't added before that the theater room has a rather large opening to the dining room as well as a normal door size opening to the kitchen. Not sure how much that will play into the ability of a sub to "fill" the room or if it should lean me more towards a 12" or higher powered unit.

Thanks for the replys. I'm gonna read more about the CSX-12 and the PA-120. I am almost to the point of increasing the budget a tad for qualities sake.

Actually I think the warranty is transferable on Hsu subwoofers.
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post #12 of 25
4/27/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by wingnut4772 View Post

Actually I think the warranty is transferable on Hsu subwoofers.

That may be true however the warranty on the amplifier is 2 years...
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post #13 of 25
4/27/12 at 9:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


That may be true however the warranty on the amplifier is 2 years...

Point taken.
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post #14 of 25
4/27/12 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Jim, very detailed and appreciated review on the CSX-12 and it sounds like a pretty good sub in the price range, but the WAF alone would probably preclude purchase of that behemoth.

I think you all have convinced me that the s10.3 is the way to go with the flat response plus it will result in an all Energy system which is kinda cool.

I don't typically listen with volume cranked (although that may change with this new system). Does volume make any difference when it comes to a subs ability to "pressurize" a room. In other words, if I am okay listening at more normal volumes will it still be evident that the sub comes up short with respect to the amount of volume it is competing with?

I know these are probably finicky questions but I get caught up in detail when something piques my interest.
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post #15 of 25
4/27/12 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 View Post

Jim, very detailed and appreciated review on the CSX-12 and it sounds like a pretty good sub in the price range, but the WAF alone would probably preclude purchase of that behemoth.

I think you all have convinced me that the s10.3 is the way to go with the flat response plus it will result in an all Energy system which is kinda cool.

I don't typically listen with volume cranked (although that may change with this new system). Does volume make any difference when it comes to a subs ability to "pressurize" a room. In other words, if I am okay listening at more normal volumes will it still be evident that the sub comes up short with respect to the amount of volume it is competing with?

The CSX12 does a better job then you've been lead to believe. Numbers alone tell only part of a story, but I certainly understand the concern with it's size; diminutive it's not.

The S10.3 has garnered quite a number of satisfied users, so I don't imagine you'll be disappointed. The room size may prevent it from reaching it's full potential, but that's certainly not a fault with the sub itself.

Indirectly, volume will be impacted. Because the space is larger then the sub was designed for you'll have to turn up the volume higher then normal. Since you're already starting with a "hot" configuration you'll have less headroom available to you, which essentially means your ability to turn it up will be compromised because you're already starting at a level that would be consider greater then average.
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post #16 of 25
4/27/12 at 1:34pm
Josh Ricci is testing the Cadence CSX15 for Audioholics. The review should be out in the next couple months, maybe sooner. Along with his subjective observations will be a suite of performance tests which will tell readers how good the Cadence is in the areas that matter the most:

Low frequency extension. Maximum output and compression. Frequency response. Distortion vis-a-vis extension and output. 2010 CEA measurements will also be provided.

Experienced subwoofer users/shoppers are waiting for this test, (as well as other subwoofer tests by Josh Ricci), as it conveys infomation that subjective reviews simply can't begin to duplicate.

One example. The LAVA LSP12 received some high praise in subjective listening, however, when tested professionally, the LAVA LSP12 was found to peak at 70Hz and fall off by 33db at 20Hz!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...iew_fullscreen
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post #17 of 25
4/27/12 at 6:38pm
Do you ever put your money where your mouth is, or do you simply rely upon everyone else? Don't just stand on the side lines, put some skin in the game yourself. Constantly waiting for others to do all the work doesn't contribute anything. Let's see what you're capable of producing, other then posts that is.
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post #18 of 25
4/27/12 at 7:09pm
Jim, your subjective analysis of multiple subs is definitely appreciated around here. Your reviews however will not be taken any more serious then every other subjective review posted on the internet without having measurements included. Even just adding a basic frequency response with your receivers calibration mic and REW (free) would bring the value of your multiple reviews up to a very high level.

edit: Just for example of what could be included, here's my subs measured at my LP with REW and a YPAO mic connected to my laptop. If every sub you review is measured under the same conditions people would at least have a general idea of how they perform.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy View Post


Experienced subwoofer users/shoppers are waiting for this test, (as well as other subwoofer tests by Josh Ricci), as it conveys infomation that subjective reviews simply can't begin to duplicate.

One example. The LAVA LSP12 received some high praise in subjective listening, however, when tested professionally, the LAVA LSP12 was found to peak at 70Hz and fall off by 33db at 20Hz!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...iew_fullscreen

Looks just like the one note Bic subs
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post #19 of 25
4/27/12 at 8:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Jim, your subjective analysis of multiple subs is definitely appreciated around here. Your reviews however will not be taken any more serious then every other subjective review posted on the internet without having measurements included. Even just adding a basic frequency response with your receivers calibration mic and REW (free) would bring the value of your multiple reviews up to a very high level.

Guess I really need to make some time to learn how the XTZ Pro Room Analyzer works. I've had the d@mn thing for a month now, but I just never seem to find enough time to get it installed and configured.
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post #20 of 25
4/27/12 at 9:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay1 View Post

Looks just like the one note Bic subs

And the Premier Acoustics. Which makes me wonder if the Cadence subs are a good buy or not when at their full retail price since the PA subs are a good bit cheaper. Although, perhaps the sound quality is better. For that, I guess we need a direct comparison listening test.
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post #21 of 25
4/28/12 at 7:54am
Having heard the the lava subs myself, they sure sound a heck of a lot better than its numbers would suggest once properly integrated in a full system. While they lack deep bass extension for movies, they are quite punchy with music and I bet many would be fooled by them in blind testing. That said I feel that a combination of both subjective and statistical info will help those considering purchasing a sub. Those that have heard both the BIC and lava also felt that overall SQ favored the LAVA.

I honestly think that the Cadence subs have potential to be on of the better offerings in the budget realm at it sale price. While I'm looking forward to Ricci's in depth review of the CSX15, I also appreciate Jim's review of the 12 incher. Both Jim and Data-bass will be valuable assets to future sub shoppers.
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post #22 of 25
4/28/12 at 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Which makes me wonder if the Cadence subs are a good buy or not when at their full retail price since the PA subs are a good bit cheaper.

I know how you can probably get a discount on the Cadence. Anyone interested in buying one can PM me for the details. And no, I'm not talking about the review unit...
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post #23 of 25
6/6/12 at 5:20am
Thread Starter 
Hey all I just wanted to post about my experience since I decided to go with the S10.3 for my "all Energy " setup. I finally got everything hooked up, broken in, and calibrated with Audessey....WOW. It sounds awesome! The entire system is worlds better then what I had before but the sub....just awesome. X-men First Class there was a scene where Magneto was moving something large and metal (can't remember what) and the sub definately hit a frequency that I had never heard in a home theater before. I felt that almost queasy feeling that I have seen described on the forums before but didn't really understand. Very cool! Have also watched Chronicle and LOTR towers and fellowship and it's like hearing the soundtrack for the first time. Despite the fact that the room is rather "open" as described in an earlier post, the sub seems to fill it relatively well and is shaking the walls and pissing off neighbors just above half volume. Anyway apprecitate all the recommendations and I am very happy with my choice of sub. I think I still have some tweaking to do with Audessey so I am off ot the Audessey forum to edumacate myself. Thanks again!
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post #24 of 25
6/6/12 at 7:29am
Congrats! A good sub makes all the difference, doesn't it? biggrin.gif
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post #25 of 25
6/6/12 at 7:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by medhead16 
Hey all I just wanted to post about my experience since I decided to go with the S10.3 for my "all Energy " setup. ... WOW. It sounds awesome! ... Despite the fact that the room is rather "open" as described in an earlier post, the sub seems to fill it relatively well and is shaking the walls and pissing off neighbors just above half volume. Anyway apprecitate all the recommendations and I am very happy with my choice of sub.
Sounds like you're pretty satisfied with your new sub! wink.gif Congrats! smile.gif
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