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Help Finding Good 7.1, 4 Ohm Stable Receiver

post #1 of 33
4/28/12 at 5:04pm
Thread Starter 
Hey All,

I am a long time lurker, but rare poster. My wife and I recently moved into our first house and are setting up our home movie theater. We sourced many of the components here and have been extremely happy thus far. However it seems to be time that I update our very old receiver into something that is more capable. Here is a quick rundown of our system:

Projector - Epson 8700UB
Blu-Ray Player - PS3
Receiver - Denon 3802 (<<< what I am looking to replace)

Speakers:

Fronts - Miller and Kreisel (M&K) S85L&R 4Ohm
Center - M&K S85C 4Ohm
Sides - M&K LR55 Tri-Poles 4Ohm
Rear - M&K LCR55 Mono-Poles 4Ohm
Sub - M&K VX-100 Dual 8"

Room:

18' X 34'

For everyone's reference the PS3 is connected directly to the projector through a 40 ft HDMI cable and the to the receiver through an optical cable. I have been using the above setup for a quite some time and a very happy. However there are some major drawbacks.

Firstly and most glaring, my receiver is not capable of accepting HDMI inputs; leaving me me with using the optical out on my PS3. This means that I can not pass many (any?) high bandwidth signals and I am limited to 5.1 surround. Fortunatly my 3802 has a "cinema" mode that simulates 7.1, but I am sure it is nothing like the real thing.

Secondly, because my receiver does not have any digital inputs/outputs I am forced to keep an analog monitor near by when doing calibrations. This makes it very difficult to adjust small settings when needed as I have no OSD being sent to my projector.

Thirdly, the current receiver does not have a real EQ, leaving me in the cold when it comes to real fine tuning adjustments.



I am looking to get something new that is one, not only capable of driving 7 channels, but two able to due so on 4 ohm speakers "near" reference level. I would also prefer that it can decode any signals that my PS3 can send and has a reasonable EQ built in.

I am open to any and all brands, but I do love the Denon I have been using so I would be partial to another one. I would also be open to lower range receiver and a separate amplifier, but I have not found a good amplifier that supports 7 channels. The receiver sits in the back of my HT so a omni-directional remote would be nice too, but I can always get an IR blaster.

My maximum budget is $1200, but I would really like to keep it below $800 if possible. I am happy to purchase online or B&M. Either is fine as long as I get a full warranty.

I have attempted to look at many different manufacturers, but very few advertise 4 ohm stability (especially across 7 channels). Can anyone point me in the right direction? I can do much of the comparison work if I could have a few model numbers to start with. Looks are not important, but "cleaner" is preferred.

Thanks in advance for everyone's time,

Ben & Brittany
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post #2 of 33
4/28/12 at 5:41pm
The current successor model to your 3802 is the 4311CI (9.2) w/Audyssey XT32 which is 4Ω stable. It can be had for maybe $100 over your current budget by "calling" one of several Denon authorized resellers to include AV Science and Electronics Expo. For all the features offered on this model, it would be well worth busting your max budget to get.
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post #3 of 33
4/28/12 at 6:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The current successor model to your 3802 is the 4311CI (9.2) w/Audyssey XT32 which is 4Ω stable. It can be had for maybe $100 over your current budget by "calling" one of several Denon authorized resellers to include AV Science and Electronics Expo. For all the features offered on this model, it would be well worth busting your max budget to get.

Given that I am using a PS3 as my Blu-Ray player and this is in a dedicated HT what features are the true blockbusters that I should been looking at in the 4311? I am concerned that my source player may not have the latest and greatest, or be able to pass the latest and greatest.

If I am not mistaken the XX11 is last years model (not a real issue), but would it be advantageous to wait for this years model? Are there projected price drops when the new model comes out?

I really appreciate your fast response, but max budget is something I would like to keep to. If I lift that limit then I may have a flood of people telling me that 3 dedicated amps and a solid gold receiver are the way to go.

Thanks again for your response. Hopefully there are other suggestions out there. Again other brands welcome if it helps me keep under my maximum.
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post #4 of 33
4/28/12 at 6:29pm
The 4311CI uses the most advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 as well as being able to EQ dual subs. It is a 9.2 AVR (ie. 7.1 + powered Zone 2) and is able to be operated via your home network using an iPhone or android phone anywhere in your home. The street price is so close to your max budget it would be a shame to overlook this model, arguably the best sub $2000 AVR on the market. The replacement, 4520CI will be released in September and will also be replacing the 4810CI and will likely MSRP at $2500. Not sure what "I am concerned that my source player may not have the latest and greatest, or be able to pass the latest and greatest" means?
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post #5 of 33
4/28/12 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphakennyone View Post

Hey All,

I am a long time lurker, but rare poster. My wife and I recently moved into our first house and are setting up our home movie theater. We sourced many of the components here and have been extremely happy thus far. However it seems to be time that I update our very old receiver into something that is more capable. Here is a quick rundown of our system:

Projector - Epson 8700UB
Blu-Ray Player - PS3
Receiver - Denon 3802 (<<< what I am looking to replace)

Speakers:

Fronts - Miller and Kreisel (M&K) S85L&R 4Ohm
Center - M&K S85C 4Ohm
Sides - M&K LR55 Tri-Poles 4Ohm
Rear - M&K LCR55 Mono-Poles 4Ohm
Sub - M&K VX-100 Dual 8"

Room:

18' X 34'

For everyone's reference the PS3 is connected directly to the projector through a 40 ft HDMI cable and the to the receiver through an optical cable. I have been using the above setup for a quite some time and a very happy. However there are some major drawbacks.

Firstly and most glaring, my receiver is not capable of accepting HDMI inputs; leaving me me with using the optical out on my PS3. This means that I can not pass many (any?) high bandwidth signals and I am limited to 5.1 surround. Fortunatly my 3802 has a "cinema" mode that simulates 7.1, but I am sure it is nothing like the real thing.

Secondly, because my receiver does not have any digital inputs/outputs I am forced to keep an analog monitor near by when doing calibrations. This makes it very difficult to adjust small settings when needed as I have no OSD being sent to my projector.

Thirdly, the current receiver does not have a real EQ, leaving me in the cold when it comes to real fine tuning adjustments.

I am looking to get something new that is one, not only capable of driving 7 channels, but two able to due so on 4 ohm speakers "near" reference level. I would also prefer that it can decode any signals that my PS3 can send and has a reasonable EQ built in.

I am open to any and all brands, but I do love the Denon I have been using so I would be partial to another one. I would also be open to lower range receiver and a separate amplifier, but I have not found a good amplifier that supports 7 channels. The receiver sits in the back of my HT so a omni-directional remote would be nice too, but I can always get an IR blaster.

My maximum budget is $1200, but I would really like to keep it below $800 if possible. I am happy to purchase online or B&M. Either is fine as long as I get a full warranty.

I have attempted to look at many different manufacturers, but very few advertise 4 ohm stability (especially across 7 channels). Can anyone point me in the right direction? I can do much of the comparison work if I could have a few model numbers to start with. Looks are not important, but "cleaner" is preferred.

Thanks in advance for everyone's time,

Ben & Brittany

I would recommend any of the Pioneer SC series AVR's. I don't run 4 ohm speakers but many people that have them run 4 ohm speakers with no problem. I own the SC-37 and I love it. Check out the owners threads for more info. It will fit your budget as well.
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post #6 of 33
4/28/12 at 7:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 4311CI uses the most advanced version of Audyssey MultEQ XT32 as well as being able to EQ dual subs. It is a 9.2 AVR (ie. 7.1 + powered Zone 2) and is able to be operated via your home network using an iPhone or android phone anywhere in your home. The street price is so close to your max budget it would be a shame to overlook this model, arguably the best sub $2000 AVR on the market. The replacement, 4520CI will be released in September and will also be replacing the 4810CI and will likely MSRP at $2500. Not sure what "I am concerned that my source player may not have the latest and greatest, or be able to pass the latest and greatest" means?

Sorry for my confusing wording. I meant I do not know if the PS3 has the is capable of using the latest codecs (??? I have no idea what encoded media is called???).

I wanted to make sure that if my PS3 was the weak link in my system that I wouldn't be over spending due to the PS3's limitation. I don't plan on getting a new Blu-Ray player as I really like the PS3 and I use it as my media server also.

Thanks for the reply though. I see what can be done money wise and keep looking out for more replies.

Take care,

Ben
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post #7 of 33
4/28/12 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphakennyone View Post


Sorry for my confusing wording. I meant I do not know if the PS3 has the is capable of using the latest codecs (??? I have no idea what encoded media is called???).

I wanted to make sure that if my PS3 was the weak link in my system that I wouldn't be over spending due to the PS3's limitation. I don't plan on getting a new Blu-Ray player as I really like the PS3 and I use it as my media server also.

Thanks for the reply though. I see what can be done money wise and keep looking out for more replies.

Take care,

Ben

The ps3 will pass the lossless codecs (dtsma and truehd) as either PCM, from the earlier models and both PCM and bitstream from the slim models.
John
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post #8 of 33
4/28/12 at 10:22pm
Thread Starter 
I am having a hard time finding street pricing for either of the above two receivers (with warranty) for anywhere near my budget. I know that people like to offer the best possible, but I am going to have to ask for some other suggestions in a lower price tier. That is unless someone can point me to a place that has these in stock, with warranty, and under $1200 (shipping and taxes included).
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post #9 of 33
4/28/12 at 10:34pm
Integra 40.3

Probably can be had for $800. Will do 7 channels. Has audyssey multeq xt. 4 ohm is possible but not as well as an amp will. You also get a 3 year warranty when you buy Integra. Integra is not sold online so you will have to find a high end B&M store. Retail is $1000 and since the 40.3 is last years model you should be able to do pretty well. 50.3, 70.3 will probably both be within your budget as well since they are also last years models.
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post #10 of 33
4/29/12 at 12:55am
Wow Im happy Ive found this thread as Im in the same boat. I also have M&K speakers (LCR 36 xenons) and they are also 4 ohms. My Yamaha RXV3800 just died and Ive been out of the game for 4 years so Im a little out of touch with todays specs. Ive taken a bit of a shine to the Pioneer LX55, but the 4 ohm speaker thing is a bit worrying. I did read the FAQ on amps and ohms, but it blew my head off.
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post #11 of 33
4/29/12 at 1:49am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent5525 View Post

Wow Im happy Ive found this thread as Im in the same boat. I also have M&K speakers (LCR 36 xenons) and they are also 4 ohms. My Yamaha RXV3800 just died and Ive been out of the game for 4 years so Im a little out of touch with todays specs. Ive taken a bit of a shine to the Pioneer LX55, but the 4 ohm speaker thing is a bit worrying. I did read the FAQ on amps and ohms, but it blew my head off.

^^^ I know right. I feel like I have a good feel for this sort of thing, but I certainly don't want to spend $800+ on the wrong thing, or something that can damage my whole system.

I probably shoud be more in the know, but I have never heard of Integra before. The pricing looks good and people seem to like them, but I am a bit worried if I have a warranty issue.

Can someone tell me why they are so much more affordable that the competition? Is it purely a big name brand thing vs a small developer (like Oppo). Or do they use inferior components?

I also did not see anyone who is using them with 4 ohm speakers. I know that others have stated it will work with them, but I would like some conformation. I guess if I have to but it at a local specialty shop that i can ask them.

Keep the suggestions coming guys. So for the Integra is winning do to performance vs price, but I am open to any other ideas.

I would also like a link to the 4311CI for ~$1300.

Thanks again for everyone's time,

Ben
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post #12 of 33
4/29/12 at 3:40am
Ive been hearing good things about the Anthem mrx300 on here and at my local suppliers. They are £1000 pounds and are mainly aimed towards no nonsense sound. i.e no bells or whistles, my wife also thinks its god ugly. But do we really care what they look like? Oh why did I buy 4 ohms m&k speakers, why couldnt have I bought 8 ohms like everyone else?
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post #13 of 33
4/29/12 at 3:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphakennyone View Post

Hey All,

I am a long time lurker, but rare poster. My wife and I recently moved into our first house and are setting up our home movie theater. We sourced many of the components here and have been extremely happy thus far. However it seems to be time that I update our very old receiver into something that is more capable. Here is a quick rundown of our system:

Projector - Epson 8700UB
Blu-Ray Player - PS3
Receiver - Denon 3802 (<<< what I am looking to replace)

Speakers:

Fronts - Miller and Kreisel (M&K) S85L&R 4Ohm
Center - M&K S85C 4Ohm
Sides - M&K LR55 Tri-Poles 4Ohm
Rear - M&K LCR55 Mono-Poles 4Ohm
Sub - M&K VX-100 Dual 8"

Room:

18' X 34'

For everyone's reference the PS3 is connected directly to the projector through a 40 ft HDMI cable and the to the receiver through an optical cable. I have been using the above setup for a quite some time and a very happy. However there are some major drawbacks.

Firstly and most glaring, my receiver is not capable of accepting HDMI inputs; leaving me me with using the optical out on my PS3. This means that I can not pass many (any?) high bandwidth signals and I am limited to 5.1 surround. Fortunatly my 3802 has a "cinema" mode that simulates 7.1, but I am sure it is nothing like the real thing.

Secondly, because my receiver does not have any digital inputs/outputs I am forced to keep an analog monitor near by when doing calibrations. This makes it very difficult to adjust small settings when needed as I have no OSD being sent to my projector.

Thirdly, the current receiver does not have a real EQ, leaving me in the cold when it comes to real fine tuning adjustments.



I am looking to get something new that is one, not only capable of driving 7 channels, but two able to due so on 4 ohm speakers "near" reference level. I would also prefer that it can decode any signals that my PS3 can send and has a reasonable EQ built in.

I am open to any and all brands, but I do love the Denon I have been using so I would be partial to another one. I would also be open to lower range receiver and a separate amplifier, but I have not found a good amplifier that supports 7 channels. The receiver sits in the back of my HT so a omni-directional remote would be nice too, but I can always get an IR blaster.

My maximum budget is $1200, but I would really like to keep it below $800 if possible. I am happy to purchase online or B&M. Either is fine as long as I get a full warranty.

I have attempted to look at many different manufacturers, but very few advertise 4 ohm stability (especially across 7 channels). Can anyone point me in the right direction? I can do much of the comparison work if I could have a few model numbers to start with. Looks are not important, but "cleaner" is preferred.

Thanks in advance for everyone's time,

Ben & Brittany

To be honest with you I really wouldn't worry about your speakers being 4 OHMS. I have run 4 ohm speakers for many, many years with just about every brand of receiver imaginable and I have never found one yet that couldn't handle a 4 ohm speaker. You are using a sub which takes most of the load off of your receiver anyway. Buy any receiver that you see fit, it will work just fine with your system.
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post #14 of 33
4/29/12 at 3:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphakennyone View Post

I would also like a link to the 4311CI for ~$1300.

Reread my post #2, noting especially I highlighted in quotes the word "calling" as resellers list MSRP on their websites.
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post #15 of 33
4/29/12 at 4:04am
Yeah don't waste your time looking online for codes and whatnot, just call.
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post #16 of 33
4/29/12 at 6:14am
what crossover do you have set to your sub ?

I wonder what the impedance of the speakers actually is with say an 80hz crossover - its got to be an easier load on the av receiver thats for sure
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post #17 of 33
4/29/12 at 8:07am
Check this thread out for Denon 4311 deal instructions. Mine arrived just a few days ago and will be powering 4 ohm speakers.
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post #18 of 33
4/29/12 at 9:10am
The Onkyo 709 is $550 at amazon and if you are concerned about 4ohm then you could get a couple of crown xls1000 for about $250 each and still be under your $1100 budget. Just a suggestion.
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR709.../ref=de_a_smtd
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post #19 of 33
4/29/12 at 9:18am
The Yamaha RX-A1000 is $750 on Amazon and will do everything you want and drive those speakers well.

A better receiver by far is the Cambridge 650R, but it is $1600.
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post #20 of 33
4/29/12 at 9:21am
The Crown amplifiers are fine for a public address system, but not for a home sound system.




Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post

The Onkyo 709 is $550 at amazon and if you are concerned about 4ohm then you could get a couple of crown xls1000 for about $250 each and still be under your $1100 budget. Just a suggestion.
http://www.amazon.com/Onkyo-TX-NR709.../ref=de_a_smtd
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post #21 of 33
4/29/12 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Yamaha RX-A1000 is $750 on Amazon and will do everything you want and drive those speakers well.

That's a good one and so is the 1121, but I didn't feel like defending myself for suggesting a known audessy avr.
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post #22 of 33
4/29/12 at 9:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman View Post

The Crown amplifiers are fine for a public address system, but not for a home sound system.

I beg to differ sir. I have a 1500 and it sounds beautifully in my home setting. If I might ask, why do you feel this way.
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post #23 of 33
4/29/12 at 10:56am
Thread Starter 
Wow,

Lots of thread movement in the past few hours. I'll look into all of the models mentioned.

I did take a look at the 4311 deal thread and I may try and get in on that. However I did have one question. If I am going to push above my limit by ~$150 then I will have to wait a few more weeks before ordering. From the looks of that thread this is a persistent deal and will not go away, but I may have to get the right person on the phone for the best deal.

I just wanted to verify that I can wait a few weeks, checking other models, saving more money, and verifying our needs; and the 4311 "deal" will still be available.

Thanks again so much to everyone for all their replies and helpful ideas. Keep em' coming if you have more. I'll be reviewing everything as they come in.

Have a good weekend all,

Ben
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post #24 of 33
4/29/12 at 10:57am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnson636 View Post

That's a good one and so is the 1121, but I didn't feel like defending myself for suggesting a known audessy avr.

Again sorry for my ignorance, but what does this:

"a known audessy avr"

mean? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?
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post #25 of 33
4/29/12 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent5525 View Post

Ive been hearing good things about the Anthem mrx300 on here and at my local suppliers. They are £1000 pounds and are mainly aimed towards no nonsense sound. i.e no bells or whistles, my wife also thinks its god ugly. But do we really care what they look like? Oh why did I buy 4 ohms m&k speakers, why couldnt have I bought 8 ohms like everyone else?

I hate that receiver. I did an install with it and it just wasn't what they act like it is. Honestly I think the sales people get big commissions off of them and that's why they push them so much. The integra actually has a section in the menu to switch the receiver over to 4ohm, 6ohm or 8ohm. The anthem has a very un-user friendly calibration program that is very touchy. My friend who owns it wishes he had bought a high end integra instead. For all you anthem fanboys I'm not trying to start a fight here and I am simply just saying that I wasn't a fan. It's a great receiver but I think there is better for the $
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post #26 of 33
4/29/12 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphakennyone View Post

I just wanted to verify that I can wait a few weeks, checking other models, saving more money, and verifying our needs; and the 4311 "deal" will still be available.

Yes, it has been selling for that price for well over a year now.
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post #27 of 33
4/29/12 at 1:37pm
Sorry OP, but this thread kind makes me happy that I did not go for
4 ohm speakers as I was originally thinking.
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post #28 of 33
4/29/12 at 2:17pm
Look at the Onkyo TX-NR818 for $1,100. I pre-ordered it and it should be out about May 7th.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_os_product
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post #29 of 33
4/29/12 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpray1983 View Post

I hate that receiver. I did an install with it and it just wasn't what they act like it is. Honestly I think the sales people get big commissions off of them and that's why they push them so much. The integra actually has a section in the menu to switch the receiver over to 4ohm, 6ohm or 8ohm. The anthem has a very un-user friendly calibration program that is very touchy. My friend who owns it wishes he had bought a high end integra instead. For all you anthem fanboys I'm not trying to start a fight here and I am simply just saying that I wasn't a fan. It's a great receiver but I think there is better for the $

You mentioned a receiver menu switch for different ohm speakers. I have been wondering about this, because I have noticed some receivers have this setting. Yet other receivers do not. For example, I have the Denon 1712 receiver with 6ohm speakers, and I did not find anywhere a setting to change the ohms in the software. I am curious if anyone knows the advantage of a receiver that has a menu setting specifically for different ohm speakers?
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post #30 of 33
4/29/12 at 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphakennyone View Post


Again sorry for my ignorance, but what does this:

"a known audessy avr"

mean? Is it a good thing or a bad thing?

Sorry for the misspelling, I meant a none audyssey avr. None audyssey AVR's are not popular around these parts.
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