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Plain English Explanation Sought...

post #1 of 11
4/30/12 at 12:11pm
Thread Starter 
Can someone explain to me in basic terms why when I play SACDs through analog Multi Channel inputs my AVR occasionally displays "overload", but not on Blurays or CDs?

I asked this question in a separate thread, when I didn't know what was causing the "overload", but would like to understand it a little more.

System parts:

Oppo 93. Using 7.1 analog out. All decoding done in player. No Bass Management or speaker adjustments in player, all left default and/or fixed.

Denon 5803. MCh Ext-In. This is one of the few AVRs that can apply speaker trims and BM to MCh analog in, so it is doing it.

Never had a problem with any BD or CD, but my recent SACD purchases will cause the AVR to display overload.

What is happening here? Is SACD "louder" or a bigger signal?

AVR analog setup can change LFE input db (0, +5, +10, +15) as well as overall input signal (0 to -20). If I change this, would the BD and CDs be softer? Change by how much?

Thanks.
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post #2 of 11
4/30/12 at 2:05pm
SACD, especially if converted directly from DSD to analog in the player, may have different output characteristics -- ultrasonic noise levels, overall output levels -- compared to LPCM sources because of differences in processing ahead of, in, or even after the DACs.

AJ
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post #3 of 11
4/30/12 at 2:10pm
For an illustration of level differences between DSD and LPCM playback, see the following example:

"The Marantz's maximum output level at 1kHz varied according to whether CD or SACD was playing and which of the three filters had been selected. The level from the balanced XLR jacks was 4.4V with SACD and Filter 1 and 2, increasing to 5.23V with Filter 3. With CD, the maximum balanced level was 4.8V with Filter 1, 4.95V with Filter 2, and 5.0V with Filter 3."

http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...r-measurements

AJ
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post #4 of 11
4/30/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDUpstate View Post

Can someone explain to me in basic terms why when I play SACDs through analog Multi Channel inputs my AVR occasionally displays "overload", but not on Blurays or CDs?

I asked this question in a separate thread, when I didn't know what was causing the "overload", but would like to understand it a little more.

System parts:

Oppo 93. Using 7.1 analog out. All decoding done in player. No Bass Management or speaker adjustments in player, all left default and/or fixed.

Denon 5803. MCh Ext-In. This is one of the few AVRs that can apply speaker trims and BM to MCh analog in, so it is doing it.

Never had a problem with any BD or CD, but my recent SACD purchases will cause the AVR to display overload.

What is happening here? Is SACD "louder" or a bigger signal?

AVR analog setup can change LFE input db (0, +5, +10, +15) as well as overall input signal (0 to -20). If I change this, would the BD and CDs be softer? Change by how much?

Thanks.

Just go into the 5803's menu and lower the level for that input. I believe it is under parameter (you'll have to lower each channel independently). The BDP's analog outputs can be a little hot (of course you can also lower the BDP's output instead in its menu).

How much to change will depend upon what you are listening to. I remember doing very little. That will indeed also lower DVD-V, CD and DVD-A. But overall volume will compensate for that very slight lower level.
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post #5 of 11
4/30/12 at 4:12pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the replies... so will lowering the input value in the AVR degrade the sound quality? Or would it improve it potentially due to no clipping, etc?
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post #6 of 11
4/30/12 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alk3997 View Post


Just go into the 5803's menu and lower the level for that input. I believe it is under parameter (you'll have to lower each channel independently). The BDP's analog outputs can be a little hot (of course you can also lower the BDP's output instead in its menu).

How much to change will depend upon what you are listening to. I remember doing very little. That will indeed also lower DVD-V, CD and DVD-A. But overall volume will compensate for that very slight lower level.

There is a separate "analog input" universal level. This was not the "protection" of the amps, as the master volume was only -35db when it occurred.
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post #7 of 11
4/30/12 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDUpstate View Post

Thanks for the replies... so will lowering the input value in the AVR degrade the sound quality? Or would it improve it potentially due to no clipping, etc?

Technically speaking, you already "degrade" the signal quality by subjecting it to a D/A/D/A chain (i.e. redigitizing the multichannel analog input).

AJ
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post #8 of 11
4/30/12 at 6:49pm
Thread Starter 
For that reason alone is it better to do the bass mgt and speaker adjustments in the player?
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post #9 of 11
5/1/12 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDUpstate View Post

For that reason alone is it better to do the bass mgt and speaker adjustments in the player?

Never ever do that.

With the 5803A (or 5803) the bass management is best done in the AVR. Those DACs (Burr-Brown PCM-1738E 192/24) were some of the best at the time of release. The audible difference is negligible - you can't hear it. Clipping would degrade the sound quality much more than anything those DACs ever would do.

And yes, try using the parameter menu (press param on the remote while on a source) to tune the source's input levels (rather than the universal volume or using the setup menu).

When tuned properly, the 5803 was one of the best AVRs made in that era (pre-audyssey). After getting the 5308A the results were suprisingly similar between the two when played around 95db at the listening spot (the level when the Audyssey doesn't add EQ to adjust for the lower overall levels). Of course at lower levels, the 5308A is king.
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post #10 of 11
5/1/12 at 5:23pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the response. Yeah, I love this thing, and with it coupled with an Anti Mode and 7.1 analog from the Oppo, I really haven't gotten the upgradeitis for Audyssey or HDMI.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you suggest reducing the input level in the parameter section for the input, (DVD, CD, VCR, etc) and not just reducing the Analog Input trim in the Analog Input setup menu?
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post #11 of 11
5/1/12 at 10:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADDUpstate View Post

Thanks for the response. Yeah, I love this thing, and with it coupled with an Anti Mode and 7.1 analog from the Oppo, I really haven't gotten the upgradeitis for Audyssey or HDMI.

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, you suggest reducing the input level in the parameter section for the input, (DVD, CD, VCR, etc) and not just reducing the Analog Input trim in the Analog Input setup menu?

Either should do the trick. The analog input trim may be a better choice to start with, now that you mention it.

Yes, I understand about the upgraditus. Only reason I did it was that 1) I wanted to tune the room better than my ears could and 2) Denon has stopped making the 5xxx big boxes so I figured I'd better grab one of the last new ones.
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