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Trying to decide whether to do clips and channel or not....

post #1 of 18
4/30/12 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
My theater design calls for clips and channel plus double drywall + green glue, but I want to ask the question "How much of an improvement are the clips and channel over just the DD + GG?"

Room is 17Wx27.5Lx9H

Clips and channel add significant cost and installation trouble to an already expensive project, but I am fighting with myself over doing it still just because "its the right way to go".

My room is in the basement, and sound isolation in the current room is not THAT big of a deal. Yes, you can hear it in the kitchen and den that is above it, but the new theater will already be walled off where the current room is a stairwell to the upstairs (reducing sound transmission) + the current ceiling is already a full separate joist system from the above floor (although the two are stupidly connected by 4 or 5 2x4's that I will be removing, reducing sound transmission again) + then I would be adding the DD + GG.

I can also watch a movie or music as the room is right NOW at reference level without anyone in the bedrooms of the house hearing it. Only the kitchen and den above can hear (although they can hear it pretty clearly...can tell what song is playing, etc).

So my reasons NOT to do it are cost, complexity, and the small amount of height and widgth I would lose.

A well respected member of the forum and friend of mine did a full clips, channel, and DD+GG install and said that it did not make the kind of difference in sound transmission that he had hoped for, and would not do the clips again if he were to do it over.

So... what say you? Go for it anyway because its the proper way to do it and, if done right, its a very significant improvement in sound isolation, or forget it because its something that, while an improvement, is not night and day over just DD+GG?

Thanks for helping me make the decision!
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post #2 of 18
4/30/12 at 4:28pm
If you have a separate ceiling joist system and you are not too concerned if some sound via shaking framing gets out then maybe skip the clips and channel.

having said that if I ever build another theater for myself. Even in a farm house it will have clips and channel. They make the room so quiet.
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post #3 of 18
4/30/12 at 4:49pm
+1 I have seen two rooms now with clips/channel and I am completely sold, awesome system.

Note there is an acoustic benefit in having them as well (wall impedance is better)
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post #4 of 18
4/30/12 at 4:52pm
This is just my opinion.... I am using Kinetics in my HT because I need to. My HT will be directly below our bedroom and right next to all the important areas of the house. I have four very large and powerful subs as well as a couple of Aerial Acoustics 20T's as well as two small children and a wife to deal with if I wake everyone up. I have to keep the noise out and the sound in. If I could crank my system and only need to worry about some noise in a room that I didn't really need to keep quiet.... I would save my money, especially since you have already mentioned this project is "already expensive".
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post #5 of 18
5/1/12 at 7:53am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elill View Post

+1 I have seen two rooms now with clips/channel and I am completely sold, awesome system.

Note there is an acoustic benefit in having them as well (wall impedance is better)

Can you expand on the acoustic benefit and wall impedance a bit? I have read a thing or two alluding to this benefit, but don't fully understand what improves.
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post #6 of 18
5/1/12 at 8:06am
I would agree with Big if we are reading it correctly that you have "room in a room" joists. Just be sure to insulate the joist space using regular old pink stuff r19 placed, not stuffed, up there.

If they are NOT separate joists, then the cost of the clips and channel are NOT going to add significantly more to an "already expensive" project. And they do not add significantly more "installation trouble."

I think the problem is that the only way to know if it will really make a difference in your (or anyone's) particular situation is to build the room without and then when you get complaints about the noise, tear out the ceiling and add them to determine if you sohuld have done it in the first place.

I took the attitude that doing everything I could to the structure that wasn't easy to go back re-do would make the room as good as it can be. Dealing with in-room acoustics and equipment is a lot easier than going back and tearing out a ceiling.

I'll just say that, at this point, I'm glad I did.
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post #7 of 18
5/1/12 at 8:17am
Thread Starter 
Yeah I do have completely separate joists. When I get the drywall off the ceiling I can see better how it was constructed and where the joists touch the side walls, etc.

Right now I have an "access panel" built by the previous homeowner that lets me up in the ceiling, but its hard to see all the way to the sides.

I have attached a pic of a view above the ceiling. You can see the 2x4's in the background that connect the bottom ceiling to the floor joists above put there by the previous homeowner. Gotta get those out.
LL
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post #8 of 18
5/1/12 at 9:27am
Thread Starter 
To do the whole room I think I would need about 230 clips plus the channel.

I think the clips are around $4 - $4.50 each on soundproofing.com. I dont know what the channel costs.

So I figure $1200 - $1500 for clips and channel..?
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post #9 of 18
5/1/12 at 10:03am
You can also use less expensive clips (under $2)

Kinetics would offer less isolation, not more. See the data.

For max bass isolation, the amount of weight hanging on the clips is far, far more important than the choice of clip.

If someone had less than satisfactory results to the point where they did not "see" the need for clips and channels, then something was designed or installed distinctly wrong. Decoupling is a MAJOR requirement if you want sound isolation
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post #10 of 18
5/1/12 at 12:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

You can also use less expensive clips (under $2)

+1

I used the one piece whisper clips for the ceiling in my theater and am very pleased with the results.
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post #11 of 18
5/1/12 at 1:11pm
Can someone point me to some information about these less expensive clips?
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post #12 of 18
5/1/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozziegt View Post

Can someone point me to some information about these less expensive clips?

I believe Ted is who you want to contact for that. Give the soundproofing company a call and they'll answer all of your questions.
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post #13 of 18
5/1/12 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifiaudio2 View Post

Can you expand on the acoustic benefit and wall impedance a bit? I have read a thing or two alluding to this benefit, but don't fully understand what improves.

The walls and ceiling basically absorb or reflect sound pretty much all the same, because they are consistently fixed in the same manner.

The main thing is that the clips actually make the wall a lot more "lossy" from a bass perspective compared to say a concrete wall. GG also helps with this.

So compare clips/channel to what I am/will be doing - a glued sheet of form ply (the heaviest stuff money can buy = good, but also very stiff = not good). GG then drywall. The walls are going to be very stiff and I'll need a lot of treatment in room for bass instead of using the room itself.

Clips also take up a lot less room than double wall construction. If I had my time over I'd be doing clips, but now that the frame is in place I cant be bothered taking it out.....that and it cost me about $2k......yes timber in Oz is very expensive
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post #14 of 18
5/1/12 at 4:33pm
Regarding construction techniques (wall impedance) and their implications for sound (especially bass), I just read this article from audioholics 2007. It comes up short for me in terms of detail. Unfortunately, it reads a little like a sales pitch to me, where the take home message is, "this is really complicated - you're going to need a professional."

I get the feeling there are some folks around here who are more familiar with the details and could potentially help. I think the knowledgeable parties may be more reachable at the shack or gear slutz. (PM me if you don't know what I'm talking about)

In any case, I'm very much interested in any thoughts you (the OP) or anyone else has on this matter. I've just about (finally) finished my own demo process, and it's time to consider this sort of thing. For instance, can I use the finished dimensions of my theater and any proposed wall construction technique (such as OSB+GG+Drywall, or 24 inch stud spacing, or anything else ???) to "manage" the modal ringing in my (still unbuilt) room? That seems to be to be the level of detail required to make this useful. It's my supposition that unless one is building only for maximum sound isolation, this is the next logical step and the reason to consider something like isolation clips in particular places.

Fred
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post #15 of 18
5/2/12 at 3:23am
Sound isolation techniques as you describe above, will not resolve modal ringing. The primary purpose of sound isolation is to minimize the impact of noise from outside the room affecting audio quality inside the room. (The next step is to minimize the impact of very loud noise from inside the room affecting those outside of the room.)

The quality of low frequency sound reproduction across seating locations is managed by other methods including, but not limited to, careful placement of multiple subs, electronic equalization, and acoustic treatments.

Clearly, clips/channel add cost to a project...cannot argue that point. Based upon experience, I'd debate "added complexity". That being said, installing clips/channel, double drywall and Green Glue will not guarantee sound isolation success. 100% of the time we've inspected a room where the owner said that effort didn't result in the level of sound reduction expected, we've found other short comings which rendered the sound isolation efforts moot. Some examples have been installation of in wall speakers, hollow core doors (and sliding doors), recessed lighting fixtures (without back boxes), and a long list of other "oversights".
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post #16 of 18
5/4/12 at 7:35am
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the help. I believe I am going to go ahead with the clips. It can be done a little cheaper than I thought and I guess if I am going to be ripping off my drywall anyway to run lights/electrical, low volt, and hvac I might as well go the extra mile and do the clips and channel.
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post #17 of 18
5/4/12 at 7:35am
You'll be glad
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post #18 of 18
5/4/12 at 4:44pm
What is better bang for the buck, whisper clips or green glue?

With clips I could add GG and another layer of drywall if it wasn't enough.
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