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Different Ideas to incorporate 2 pairs of different style subs

post #1 of 112
Thread Starter 
Alright, Ive got my old two tubatrons still sitting in my closet, I have some down time due to a blown PJ bulb (second one in a year, grrr, has nothing to do with the subs I promise!). Im going to pull my screen and really do some cleaning up behind it. While im at it, I am going to reincorporate the LLT's which are two tempest x-2 15's tuned to around 11-12hz powered by an epx4000 to my already existing dual XXX 18's that are on the fp14k.

I have the DCX 2496 still in the chain to eq, and ive got a 4311 and an sms-1 on order, but the different options im considering and would love your input on is:

1) keep the LLT's as they are, let them AND the XXX's play all the same bandwidth.

2) cut down the tubes a good amount and raise the tuning to aim for MEGA midbass output to help up where the XXX's get inefficient. EQ them seperately where the XXX's maybe run up to 40-50hz and the tempests go from there to maybe 120hz optimally. These would still be ported.

3) Remove the port from one tube, cut it down some and create a single dual opposed sealed setup for the tempests, and either eq them seperately or together???

As far as placement goes, none of these options would grant me the ability to put them anywhere else in the room other than behind the screen, but the final option, just building a quick sealed box or two and scrapping/selling the tubatrons is also a consideration. With the sonotubes being 24" dia, I couldnt even make these end tables or anything, just too big around... but what I could do, with the sealed boxes, is put one beside each row of seating.

Im not really looking at making this TOO permanent, as I still want to put two more XXX 18's in, and in the not so distant future if I am able to, but i thought one of these options would help me out during the interim. My overall objective? Well, more displacement, for help down low, but also to help the XXX's up where they become less efficient. can I get both with one of these? Perhaps if I left the LLT's alone, but making them blend with the sealed XXX's might not do well.

Id love to hear your thoughts guys! I saw the other post regarding something similar, but as I havent decided to split the bandwidth or not yet, this digs a little deeper

Thx
post #2 of 112
1) or 3)

Option 1) is the easiest to try out but could pose some situations with mixing ported and sealed in the same system. Not definite but could happen. Having a DCX online is cool but your LLT is tuned well below where it could help if that was something that is a problem area.

Option 3) is the easiest to deal with (though you'll need to alter the LLT's or build new sealed boxes) and will give you more output where your XXX's are lagging behind.

Option 2) is kinda.... meh, imo. You could tune higher relative to most HT subs but you'll still be lower than needed. You won't need more output in the 20-30hz range. You'll need it in the 40-80hz range. Lol and you're not gonna tune up to 40hz methinks. Try your Tempest's sealed with plenty of power. If that doesn't work out....


... then I'd say... "go big and go pro".

I have no idea what a Tubatron is. Sorry.
post #3 of 112
what mains are you running again?
post #4 of 112
Thread Starter 
Scott,

The tubratrons are just what I called the 24" sono LLT build you assisted me with Remember? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21527742

LTD,

Im running the JTR triple 12's with a triple 8 center.
post #5 of 112
well, you have enough gear there. sounds like you are down to measuring, placement, and room effects. i know that sounds kind of trite, but it is not meant that way.
post #6 of 112
Ah, yes. Of course. I just must have forgot that you had named them.

Try my idea if it sounds alright to you. If it's behind your screen and have room, have both facing out. Might get more midbass SPL that way. *shrugs* Otherwise, sell off your Tempest's or budget yourself for two to four of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...Number=264-387

Seal em up and power with your Behringer. Little effort, tons of win.

Or even... if it's an affordable option. Send the two LLT's to the back of the room and also do what I mentioned just above in this post. Hell yeah.
post #7 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

well, you have enough gear there. sounds like you are down to measuring, placement, and room effects. i know that sounds kind of trite, but it is not meant that way.

Oh not at all!!! I have measured what I have now, with just the two 18's, here is a link to what ive done so far:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post21819762

Placement is kind of a bia with 7 cuft boxes, I dont have any options. with my theater room only being 11 feet wide, I am quite limited as no side walls are available, and in there rear would REALLY be pushing it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Ah, yes. Of course. I just must have forgot that you had named them.

Try my idea if it sounds alright to you. If it's behind your screen and have room, have both facing out. Might get more midbass SPL that way. *shrugs* Otherwise, sell off your Tempest's or budget yourself for two to four of these: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...Number=264-387

Seal em up and power with your Behringer. Little effort, tons of win.

Or even... if it's an affordable option. Send the two LLT's to the back of the room and also do what I mentioned just above in this post. Hell yeah.

Anywhere they go, they will have to be stood up. Im imagining them in the back and while that would be totally awesome, having the steps come downstairs in one corner, and a small hall to the backdoor leaving off the other corner, I just dont see that happening. I might see if I can get creative but tubes that big dont hide, haha.

two of the seleniums would be sweet. basically do a MBM under the triple 12's? what size box would those need? having all that blasting would be insane! I love it. I still could do two of the seleniums, with 2 of the xxx18's in the front, THEN put the tempests in small sealed and put beside the first and second row of seating. that would basically put a sub at each third of the side wall. other side wall is the walkway to the front of the theater so no dice there. There may be a spot on the back wall for a sealed box but still not optimal.
post #8 of 112
Thread Starter 
also, does the sms-1 have the ability to EQ two different subs, or two different pairs of subs?
post #9 of 112
I don't believe so. It has output for multiple subs but treats them all as one and in one location.

A DCX and/or MiniDSP would be better for that but sans easy to use GUI with video output. I wish they would make a MiniDSP in the form factor of the DCX or SMS with all these features. Gah! What gives?
post #10 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

I don't believe so. It has output for multiple subs but treats them all as one and in one location.

A DCX and/or MiniDSP would be better for that but sans easy to use GUI with video output. I wish they would make a MiniDSP in the form factor of the DCX or SMS with all these features. Gah! What gives?

I still have the dcx, and might keep it, but I wanted to see what the sms-1 could do on it's own. if it comes down to just 4 xxx 18's, it should work just fine to handle that, and the dcx could then be used for an active LCR setup :wootwoot:
post #11 of 112
Thread Starter 
Alright!! Got everything hooked up last night but only was able to get about a 30 minute music listening session in so I cant comment too much yet, but holy jeez, I gotta lot more bang in the now with Both RE's and the LLT's firing. Lotsa low end. Right now I still have the XXX's on the DCX and the LG14k and the LLT's are going straight from the 4311 to the EPX4k. All i did was let xt32 eq the LLT's and since it has two channels, it eq's the XXX's seperately. I REALLY like that!!! Im going to get a good listening session in tonight and ill post my impressions tomorrow.

What I have pretty much decided to do however, is pull the LLT's and focus more on some pro drivers to really pound out the 40-100/120hz area, and let the RE's handle the low low stuff That will just be spectacular. I really just want insane amounts of midbass for music listening!!!

So far Scott has suggested the selenium 18SWS800 which fits pretty well with the power I can give it from the EPX4k, but id love to hear some other suggestions for a sweet pair of 15 or 18 pro drivers capable of COPIOUS amounts of midbass!!!

BC 18tbx?
post #12 of 112
are you thinking about crossing the xxx's under 40hz and the pro-subs only from 40-100hz, or are you talking about running the pro-subs along with the xxx's full range?
post #13 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

are you thinking about crossing the xxx's under 40hz and the pro-subs only from 40-100hz, or are you talking about running the pro-subs along with the xxx's full range?

Ill run the pro subs full range, but have the XXX's LP'd at 40 or 50hz to take care of the low end. They are sucking up a lot of amp power further up than that where they are very inefficient. My main objective here is to get pounding midbass similar to my old dual f-20's but using some big 18 pro drivers sealed, and then have the XXX's take care of the uber low stuff where they perform the best

Either all of the subs will go through the DCX, or ill run the pro 18's straight and see how they do EQ wise and THEN run them through afterwards. If the response doesnt do well running them full range, then ill HP the pros wherever I cut the XXX's off.
post #14 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

So far Scott has suggested the selenium 18SWS800 which fits pretty well with the power I can give it from the EPX4k, but id love to hear some other suggestions for a sweet pair of 15 or 18 pro drivers capable of COPIOUS amounts of midbass!!!

I just got a pair of 18LW2400s in ~5.5 ft^3 enclosures tuned to 38hz. I became interested in them after seeing Ricci's test of the 21LW1400. They are powered by an EP4000 in bridged mode, drivers wired in parallel for ~950 watts per driver. They kick ass for midbass, gave me way more than my 4 MFWs could. Now I run the MFWs 0-40hz and 18LW2400s 40-110hz.
post #15 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

....but id love to hear some other suggestions for a sweet pair of 15 or 18 pro drivers capable of COPIOUS amounts of midbass!!!

BC 18tbx?

Sure... that or:

18sound 15LW 1400 or 18LW1400 or 21LW1400
Eminence Sigma 18
Eminence Impero 18
AE TD18h+
Eminence KappaPro 15LF2
JBL 2226h/j
JBL 2241
JBL 2242
B&C 21sw152
Dayton Pro PA460-8
Peavy Lowrider 15
Peavy Lowrider 18
TCsounds PRO 5100


I'm sure there are a few others to choose from.
post #16 of 112
18LW2400 or the 18TBX100.

they model within 0.5 db of each other, but go with a ported enclosure like haan did, 5.5 cubic feet tuned to 38hz. that really maximizes what you are shooting for.

both can handle lots of power. both have demodulating rings (18lw2400 has two). they are pretty much the same price ~$320. the drivers on scott's list either lack some features or are much more expensive. the td18h+ might be worth paying up for, but who knows if they are available. i'd pick the 18sounds for its lower qe and le.
post #17 of 112
The Peavey low rider 18 has the lowest inductance of the bunch. I use a pair of Sigma Pro 18s in the PA. I'm prototyping a 70-300hz horn loaded with a pair of Sundown E12s today.
post #18 of 112
Thread Starter 
Thanks for all the suggestions... What about a pair of 4648A's? that outa do it huh? Ill look at the other drivers too
post #19 of 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post

Thanks for all the suggestions... What about a pair of 4648A's? that outa do it huh? Ill look at the other drivers too

Umm, well... yeah. Do you have those? I've got three. Not going to use the cabs though.

I'd try the resonant cabs afterwards if there isn't enough midbass from the sealed version. The inroom response from both the XXX18's and these midbass units will sum up where it looks like they will be rolling off (~50hz) and the FR should be very smooth. Throw in a vented version and you might get some nice impact and obvious increase in SPL but it will be in a very narrow region and will require the use of HPF's and introduce new things into your measurements like some null around the tune and possible port compression. Also the box will be 2-3x larger so positioning in the tight spots will be ...harder. The sealed MBM's gives you more placement options to play with. They can also contribute to the lowend being sealed and if designed for excursion control then you'll never have to worry about extra filters or bottoming them out ....ever. The sealed option gives you the bass where you need it, up high. If you want to make subs of them and need extension, which you don't, go with the vented.

However, wood is cheap-ish so you should try both but I'd start small and easy.
post #20 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

Umm, well... yeah. Do you have those? I've got three. Not going to use the cabs though.

I'd try the resonant cabs afterwards if there isn't enough midbass from the sealed version. The inroom response from both the XXX18's and these midbass units will sum up where it looks like they will be rolling off (~50hz) and the FR should be very smooth. Throw in a vented version and you might get some nice impact and obvious increase in SPL but it will be in a very narrow region and will require the use of HPF's and introduce new things into your measurements like some null around the tune and possible port compression. Also the box will be 2-3x larger so positioning in the tight spots will be ...harder. The sealed MBM's gives you more placement options to play with. They can also contribute to the lowend being sealed and if designed for excursion control then you'll never have to worry about extra filters or bottoming them out ....ever. The sealed option gives you the bass where you need it, up high. If you want to make subs of them and need extension, which you don't, go with the vented.

However, wood is cheap-ish so you should try both but I'd start small and easy.

Sweet, yea I would not be opposed to rebuilding the cabs for something sealed if I needed to, but a pair of these for about half what one goes for new? I might have to jump on that. Ill build whatever I need to if it necessary, that is a pretty sweet deal I could just plug the ports too?
post #21 of 112
You could but the net internal airspace is larger than needed for excursion control but I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. Go for it if you can get it cheap!

That will certainly punch it up a notch. Bridge your EPX into one. It's native tune is 40hz so HPF there.
post #22 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

You could but the net internal airspace is larger than needed for excursion control but I guess it wouldn't hurt to try. Go for it if you can get it cheap!

That will certainly punch it up a notch. Bridge your EPX into one. It's native tune is 40hz so HPF there.

Think I could get away with having both on my single epx? OR would I need to plan for another one down the road?
post #23 of 112
Oh... you're going to get two? Sure, you can do that.

Just to visualize.... here's one 4648a cab with 600w going into it.



Co-locate the 2nd for 6dB more across the bandwidth.
post #24 of 112
Thread Starter 
Now i really like the looks of that
post #25 of 112
Thread Starter 
ok so the pair of 4648's are available. Crap, how much stuff can I sell in two days to be able to afford them! Lemme know if anyone wants an eq.2, or signal boosters, i have a bunch of em!! haha
post #26 of 112
Thread Starter 
Ok one of the two 4648's made it home from the coast with me, I couldnt fit the other in my car, but I did buy it as well!! Now I have to figure out the best way to get it from one end of the state to the other without having to drive all the way down there to pick it up. I do have the one I COULD fit down in the theater and hope to have it hooked up tonight Really looking forward to that!
post #27 of 112
post #28 of 112
Thread Starter 
well another thing I thought of, how would these cabs work on their sides, as opposed to standing up? I say that, because on their side, with the 15's beside each other, they will fit exactly between my 18's, then youll see a wall of speakers awesome

Im assuming no difference since these are purely going to be used for 40-120hz materials
post #29 of 112
They will work perfectly. No changes unless you plan on using them up past 1khz.

I also highly recommend running them the the way you mention consuming the middle space between the XXX's.
post #30 of 112
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post

They will work perfectly. No changes unless you plan on using them up past 1khz.

I also highly recommend running them the the way you mention consuming the middle space between the XXX's.

man absolutely, and it will look just dang intimidating
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