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Stupid question regarding speaker wire... - Page 2

post #31 of 206
5/1/12 at 5:47am
Swampfox, I always wondered why Bach sounded like some 80's pop group, when I played my cd's on my stereo.
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post #32 of 206
5/1/12 at 7:17am
Quote:


Seriously, the green color is probably due to a very thin layer of copper sulfate or other copper compound forming on the surface of the wire. Sulfur r comes from either the atmosphere or from the insulation.

Copper sulphate is blue, copper chloride is green. PVC contians chlorides.
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post #33 of 206
5/1/12 at 8:00am
People are aware that we are not running DC over speaker wires, right?????

So please tell me why one want the signal to travel in only one direction or in one direction better than the other? And wouldn't that be detrimental to the accurate reproduction of sound?

How many times have you read a review that bragged that their drivers moved, say, very efficiently forward, but were hampered in their rearward movement? ...Or that someone purchased cables to increase this asymmetrical behavior?

And if folks are still subscribing to the notion that signals are transmitted via the movement electrons, what happens when all the electrons eventually 'pile up' on the 'receiving' end? ...Does the wire just stop conducting due to 'electron depletion'???

Has anyone for whom this topic is of interest ever actually taken a physics course? I suspect the truth would shock more than a few... (That is, unless the shock was delivered in a direction running counter to the diode they are referring to as an interconnect...)
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post #34 of 206
5/1/12 at 8:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

Copper sulphate is blue, copper chloride is green. PVC contains chlorides.

Seems reasonable. I might add that the first time I saw serious discoloration of copper strands in clear insulated speaker wire, the source was Monster Cable that I had picked up cheap at a swap.

It has only been about 43 years since I last spent any serious time in the materials or inorganic chemistry labs, so I'm a tad rusty. ;-)
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post #35 of 206
5/1/12 at 8:30am
I'd suggest you buy a speaker wire that doesn't have clear insulation. If you can't see oxidation, it won't be a concern.
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post #36 of 206
5/1/12 at 8:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post


...so I'm a tad rusty. ;-)

I see what you did there.
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post #37 of 206
5/1/12 at 8:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Seems reasonable. I might add that the first time I saw serious discoloration of copper strands in clear insulated speaker wire, the source was Monster Cable that I had picked up cheap at a swap.

It has only been about 43 years since I last spent any serious time in the materials or inorganic chemistry labs, so I'm a tad rusty. ;-)

lol... nice touch there arny...

damn, you are OLD!
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post #38 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:08am
Most higher end cable both ICs and Speaker have a directional marker on it.

Believe it or not, just go with the instructions and you can't go wrong.

Every cable I own has a directional marking on it, not just the Audioquest cables.
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post #39 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:17am
^^^

lol...

"higher end" cables... hmm... well, i guess they gotta give the suc... i mean "buyer" something to convince them that they haven't just thrown away money...

if you really believe that a passive cable has "direction", i've got two real nice bridges right here to sell you...
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post #40 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:29am
Quote:


Believe it or not, just go with the instructions and you can't go wrong.

Believe it or not, just do the opposite of what the instructions say, and you can't go wrong either!

Physics is funny that way.

Quote:


Every cable I own has a directional marking on it, not just the Audioquest cables.

Yep, and people like you are why they put those arrows on.
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post #41 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

^^^

lol...

"higher end" cables... hmm... well, i guess they gotta give the suc... i mean "buyer" something to convince them that they haven't just thrown away money...

if you really believe that a passive cable has "direction", i've got two real nice bridges right here to sell you...

Nothing in my post says what I believe. Just that the directional markings are there and that it takes no effort to place them as indicated.

Higher End Cables have better construction than el-cheapos, also better shielding.

I just looked at your media room thread and you have done some nice work and put together a really nice looking setup but I didn't see and Black & Reds or zip cord in any of the pictures. Why not since you don't believe in higher end cabling? Did you waste some of your sucker money also?

I'm just going to guess that you have never had cables on the caliber of Synergistic Research in your setup so I can't tell where your comparisons and claims of wasted money come from. Enlighten us all please.
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post #42 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:34am
Quote:


Higher End Cables have better construction than el-cheapos, also better shielding.

In what ways?
How does 'high end' unshielded speaker cable have better shielding?
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post #43 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Believe it or not, just do the opposite of what the instructions say, and you can't go wrong either!

Physics is funny that way.


Yep, and people like you are why they put those arrows on.

People like me? How is that? Just because I prefer to have slightly better constructed cables than Black & Reds and zip cord has nothing to do with whether or not I believe the claims made about cables in general.
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post #44 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAM64 View Post

In what ways?
How does 'high end' unshielded speaker cable have better shielding?

In General. Obviously if you seek out unshielded cables they won't be better shielded. I would bet the construction would still be better than Rat Shack and Home Depot cables, ICs that is.
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post #45 of 206
5/1/12 at 9:49am
Quote:


Higher End Cables have better construction than el-cheapos, also better shielding.

Yes, I'm sure they're better constructed than the freebie interconnects I use, which came with a cassette deck purchased in 1978.

I just know they're going to fail me any day now. What will I do?
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post #46 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Nothing in my post says what I believe. Just that the directional markings are there and that it takes no effort to place them as indicated.

Higher End Cables have better construction than el-cheapos, also better shielding.

I just looked at your media room thread and you have done some nice work and put together a really nice looking setup but I didn't see and Black & Reds or zip cord in any of the pictures. Why not since you don't believe in higher end cabling? Did you waste some of your sucker money also?

I'm just going to guess that you have never had cables on the caliber of Synergistic Research in your setup so I can't tell where your comparisons and claims of wasted money come from. Enlighten us all please.

I've been in the HT in question. No expensive cables in the mix, mostly Monoprice. Who knows though, maybe he hid his expensive cables, cable lifters, and resonance bells from a guest

Care to explain how cables of "the caliber of Synergistic Research" improve SQ? Enlighten us all please

Arrows on A/V cables have as much value as an arrows would on a Twinkie indicating where to start eating. Of course, then Hostess could charge a 20x premium for the directional snack cake...
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post #47 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Do you know how much it's costs to print arrows on the casing? Also after testing a them a large percentage are rejected because the arrows were printed in the wrong direction and they will short out your amp/speakers.

Also they can't print the arrows before testing because the cables can change direction and it becomes fixed after printing.

U also realize that they have to roll them in the direction of the arrows otherwise it will lose it's fidelity
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post #48 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Nothing in my post says what I believe. Just that the directional markings are there and that it takes no effort to place them as indicated.

Higher End Cables have better construction than el-cheapos, also better shielding.

Shielding is irrelevant to speaker cables, so I don't know how this relates to this thread.

When you say "better construction" are you speaking of aesthetics (such as nicely braided cloth overcovering) or actual better electrical properties?

When it comes to better electrical properties, for shielding it seems hard to beat quad shielding (4 layers!), but that's available on commodity grade coax for maybe $0.15 a foot.

When you say higher end, are you referring to cables that are just better than the cheapest thing on the market, or cables with pretentions to high end like the low end Monster Cables that places like Best Buy sells?
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post #49 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


Care to explain how cables of "the caliber of Synergistic Research" improve SQ? Enlighten us all please

I wish I could explain it. I am not the original owner of the current 2 ch setup I use right now and can only offer personal observations.

Given system was VAC pre amp, Counterpoint amp, Clearfield speakers, CAL CDP, and Kimber PBJs and KT8c. The sound was thin and lacked bass detail.

Owner replaced all the cabling with Synergistic and the system changed dramatically with improvements in several areas.

I became the owner of this same system a few years ago and had always left the cabling intact. Just last week I was rewiring a few things I needed to move in my rack and decided to try a few different cables in the main setup. First I put a set of Groneberg ICs between my pre and amp and it was very basey and lacking of detail. Then I put a pair of older Tara Labs cables in and things improved some back to what I was used to. I then put the Synergistics back in and everything I felt was lacking was now back.

I can't explain it, and don't care to get into a yea-sayer vs naysayer argument. In my system, with my ears, I hear a clear difference between the Synergistic cables cheap ICs. Maybe they do some voodoo with their cables. I don't know, just that the sound difference is real to me.

I know there are a bunch of people who go only on specs and measurements but they don't reflect what each individual human ear hears and what each individual human brain interprets the sound to be.

A little off topic of cables but more on topic of the human ear and measurements alone:

When asked about how Dynaudio speakers are developed and tested, Wilfred Ehrenholz said this

"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

He went on to say how they spend 200-300 hours of HUMAN listening to the speakers they develop to tweak them after they meet the specs.

Anyone want to argue with the Pres of one of the top speaker MFGs in the world?
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post #50 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:30am
Quote:


I would bet the construction would still be better than Rat Shack and Home Depot cables, ICs that is.

So, you don't really know, you're just guessing?
Got it

Quote:


I wish I could explain it.

Don't worry about it, it's been well understood by engineers for decades....it's just the typical laymen, like yourself, who don't understand how conductors work.
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post #51 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:33am
Quote:


I can't explain it

I can.

Quote:


"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

I wouldn't by any tech product designed by someone this dumb.
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post #52 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Shielding is irrelevant to speaker cables, so I don't know how this relates to this thread.

When you say "better construction" are you speaking of aesthetics (such as nicely braided cloth overcovering) or actual better electrical properties?

When it comes to better electrical properties, for shielding it seems hard to beat quad shielding (4 layers!), but that's available on commodity grade coax for maybe $0.15 a foot.

When you say higher end, are you referring to cables that are just better than the cheapest thing on the market, or cables with pretentions to high end like the low end Monster Cables that places like Best Buy sells?

Construction as far as the connectors and assembly and yes, originally this was bare speaker wire and I interjected ICs into the mix.

When I say Higher End, yes I mean cables that cost more than $2 to $20. Monster is another issue all together. (can you say Bose school of marketing?) Even the Mono Price and Blue Jean cables are of better construction that Rat Shack cables (again ICs).

Although my Synergistic cables would be considered High End, I did not and would not pay what they cost new. I got mine as a complete system with all mentioned components for $300 and spent another $300 to repair the amp and retube the pre. The Kaleidoscope ICs were $350 a pair new and the 14' Speaker cables (forget the series off the top) cost the original owner $1400.
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post #53 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post



I wouldn't by any tech product designed by someone this dumb.

LOL, yeah Dynaudio speakers suck, don't they? Have you heard any of them?
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post #54 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post


I wish I could explain it. I am not the original owner of the current 2 ch setup I use right now and can only offer personal observations.

Given system was VAC pre amp, Counterpoint amp, Clearfield speakers, CAL CDP, and Kimber PBJs and KT8c. The sound was thin and lacked bass detail.

Owner replaced all the cabling with Synergistic and the system changed dramatically with improvements in several areas.

I became the owner of this same system a few years ago and had always left the cabling intact. Just last week I was rewiring a few things I needed to move in my rack and decided to try a few different cables in the main setup. First I put a set of Groneberg ICs between my pre and amp and it was very basey and lacking of detail. Then I put a pair of older Tara Labs cables in and things improved some back to what I was used to. I then put the Synergistics back in and everything I felt was lacking was now back.

I can't explain it, and don't care to get into a yea-sayer vs naysayer argument. In my system, with my ears, I hear a clear difference between the Synergistic cables cheap ICs. Maybe they do some voodoo with their cables. I don't know, just that the sound difference is real to me.

I know there are a bunch of people who go only on specs and measurements but they don't reflect what each individual human ear hears and what each individual human brain interprets the sound to be.

A little off topic of cables but more on topic of the human ear and measurements alone:

When asked about how Dynaudio speakers are developed and tested, Wilfred Ehrenholz said this

"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

He went on to say how they spend 200-300 hours of HUMAN listening to the speakers they develop to tweak them after they meet the specs.

Anyone want to argue with the Pres of one of the top speaker MFGs in the world?

when it comes to cables/wire, if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist... period...

what the example you quote (speakers) have to do with this conversation, I have no idea...
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post #55 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bfreedma View Post


I've been in the HT in question. No expensive cables in the mix, mostly Monoprice. Who knows though, maybe he hid his expensive cables, cable lifters, and resonance bells from a guest
.

what? you didn't notice the skakshi (sp?) stones?
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post #56 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post


what the example you quote (speakers) have to do with this conversation, I have no idea...

It was in response to measurements, that cannot be heard. In the end, it's the human ear that makes the final decision on how something sounds.

Anyway, I got jumped on just because I mentioned all my cables have direction on them as it was ASSUMED that I believe the hype.

I don't know what all the gear is being used by everyone here that wants to claim B&Rs are just as good as anything else out there. Maybe the gear used itself cannot display the differences. And thats great, it will always be a non- issue for those folks. I do know that my system can display the differences, sometimes dramatically. I only have my ears to go on and I make decisions for myself, not according to what others say I can hear or not hear.
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post #57 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

A little off topic of cables but more on topic of the human ear and measurements alone:

When asked about how Dynaudio speakers are developed and tested, Wilfred Ehrenholz said this

"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

He went on to say how they spend 200-300 hours of HUMAN listening to the speakers they develop to tweak them after they meet the specs.

Anyone want to argue with the Pres of one of the top speaker MFGs in the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I can.


I wouldn't by any tech product designed by someone this dumb.

When you design per specs, you get a product per specs.

When you design per specs and tweak it per the human feel, you get a product that cannot be imitated by competition.

Classic example:

BMW.
Everybody and their mother in the Automotive world are trying to make a car that drives as good as a BMW. They are able to get performance numbers that are better than a BMW, yet....Yet they always lose a shootout when actual drivers are driving the cars. Their reaction is that the BMW is talking to them (druggies....we should have known better and did a drug test before and after), and becomes one with the driver. The feeling is unexplainable. If it were one magazine that reported this, I would say they are on the BMW payroll, but everybody?

Think about it. There is more than measurements can tell. We have been able to identify only some of them. When the scientists identify all the attributes and their perfect measurements, come back and talk to me.
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post #58 of 206
5/1/12 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

what? you didn't notice the skakshi (sp?) stones?

All I noticed is some gorgeous speakers and an APC unit. No mention of the gear so for all I know you could be using a $100 AVR.

By the way, what are the speakers? Both setups?
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post #59 of 206
5/1/12 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

When you design per specs, you get a product per specs.

When you design per specs and tweak it per the human feel, you get a product that cannot be imitated by competition.

Classic example:

BMW.
Everybody and their mother in the Automotive world are trying to make a car that drives as good as a BMW. They are able to get performance numbers that are better than a BMW, yet....Yet they always lose a shootout when actual drivers are driving the cars. Their reaction is that the BMW is talking to them (druggies....we should have known better and did a drug test before and after), and becomes one with the driver. The feeling is unexplainable. If it were one magazine that reported this, I would say they are on the BMW payroll, but everybody?

Think about it. There is more than measurements can tell. We have been able to identify only some of them. When the scientists identify all the attributes and their perfect measurements, come back and talk to me.

Was that for both of us or are you agreeing with Wilfred?
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post #60 of 206
5/1/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Do you know how much it's costs to print arrows on the casing? Also after testing a them a large percentage are rejected because the arrows were printed in the wrong direction and they will short out your amp/speakers.

Also they can't print the arrows before testing because the cables can change direction and it becomes fixed after printing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

If they are printing anything else on the wire, adding the arrows costs next to nothing.

I don't think there's much danger of the printing going on wrong, since the wire itself is fully bi-directional. ;-)

Testing? Do tell how one tests copper wires for their preferred direction of conduction!

Dowsing rod?

Inspection of goat entrails?

Observe splatters of chicken blood?

Looks like you missed my (I thought obvious) sarcasm. Guess I need to use [sarcasm] tags. Read my previous post and I hope you don't take it literally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

Actually they ask the electrons which way feels better to them and then line the atoms up in the cable (one by one) so the electrons are happy. Happy electrons = superior sound.?
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