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Stupid question regarding speaker wire... - Page 3

post #61 of 206
Quote:
When you design per specs, you get a product per specs.

When you design per specs and tweak it per the human feel, you get a product that cannot be imitated by competition.

Who said anything about designing by specs? Read the original quote again:
Quote:
"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

The guy who said that is a scientific illiterate, pure and simple. His speakers might be good, but if they are, it's an accident.
post #62 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

Who said anything about designing by specs? Read the original quote again:

The guy who said that is a scientific illiterate, pure and simple. His speakers might be good, but if they are, it's an accident.

Maybe you would like to actually listen to the whole interview, it seems you are taking the statement out of context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-dLu...elated&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVPGx...elated&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaqmf...W%20How%20Made[/quote]

Also, you may want to listen to some Dynaudios sometime before deeming the designer illiterate and that his speakers are what they are due to pure luck.

Do you realize how ignorant that actually sounds?
post #63 of 206
By the way, as far as ICs are concerned....reposted from another forum

""Direction certainly makes a difference if the cables are shielded. Generally shields are only terminated at one end. That is done so that the shield does not carry current and end up coupling noise into the conductors that it protects. The purpose of the shield is to keep out magnetic fields that can introduce noise from power cables and the like.""
post #64 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

It was in response to measurements, that cannot be heard. In the end, it's the human ear that makes the final decision on how something sounds.

Anyway, I got jumped on just because I mentioned all my cables have direction on them as it was ASSUMED that I believe the hype.

I don't know what all the gear is being used by everyone here that wants to claim B&Rs are just as good as anything else out there. Maybe the gear used itself cannot display the differences. And thats great, it will always be a non- issue for those folks. I do know that my system can display the differences, sometimes dramatically. I only have my ears to go on and I make decisions for myself, not according to what others say I can hear or not hear.

ah, yes, "the gear isn't good enough"...

and no, you can't equate "speakers" to "wire"...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

All I noticed is some gorgeous speakers and an APC unit. No mention of the gear so for all I know you could be using a $100 AVR.

By the way, what are the speakers? Both setups?

media room is salks... ht2-tl mains, ht2c center, custom ht-1 on walls for surrounds... dual seaton submersive hp's...

wife's kingdom is onix rocket 850 sigs, and a pair of grado ps1000 cans (i still have not forgiven bfreedma for allowing her to listen to his)... amoungst other things that go in her ears...

if i could find a 100 dollar avr that had the dsp i needed/wanted and was robust enough to drive the salks i would have bought it... the media room avr is a denon a100... wife's kingdom has a denon 5800... she also has a cheapo chinese tube integrated and a pair of salk jordans in the bedroom...

wanna know the video stuff too? just so you can see that i'm a bit, umm, "picky" when it comes to a/v?

fwiw, i'm very lucky... we have no kids, and my wife is as big an a/v nut as i am... and while my budget is not "unlimited", if "high end cables" actually did anything, i think i could find room in it for them... heaven knows i've found room in it for any number of tweaky things that actually work (not to mention some that didn't/don't work, but i wanted them anyway)...

my gear, while not the best, is "good enough"... although i do need to upgrade this piece...

post #65 of 206
"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

The ear-brain's processing is capable of a great deal.

But to say that no other measurement technology is more acute or accurate than the ear is pure nonsense.

That is like saying that a hearing aid cannot assist the ear, or that measurements cannot distinguish discrete signals beyond the limitations of the ear-brain's resolution such as the Haas interval where the individual discrete signals are smeared into one event.

Just like the telescope, microscope, magnifying glass and numerous other technologies can discern far more than the simple relatively near objects limited to the visible spectrum in vision, there are numerous technologies that similarly extend the capabilities of our ability to perceive behavior in the realm of audio frequencies, both within the audible spectrum and beyond.

His bit of hyperbole is just that, hyperbole that overreaches what is credible.
post #66 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

By the way, as far as ICs are concerned....reposted from another forum

""Direction certainly makes a difference if the cables are shielded. Generally shields are only terminated at one end. That is done so that the shield does not carry current and end up coupling noise into the conductors that it protects. The purpose of the shield is to keep out magnetic fields that can introduce noise from power cables and the like.""

That is not generally true. For example, the shield of a single-ended cable is the ground return and must be connected at both ends. Balanced cables usually have the shield connected at both ends by default but often make provision to lift one end to reduce ground loops (hum). Most shielding material, e.g. copper and various foils, do not change magnetic fields nor offer magnetic shielding. BTW, anytime there is current flow, there is an associated magnetic field. Finally, which end do they suggest the shield be connected to?

I suppose the end I have in mind would be appropriate in Chris's picture above...

Back on-topic -- With all this talk of electrons, my holes are feeling very neglected...
post #67 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

By the way, as far as ICs are concerned....reposted from another forum

""Direction certainly makes a difference if the cables are shielded. Generally shields are only terminated at one end. That is done so that the shield does not carry current and end up coupling noise into the conductors that it protects. The purpose of the shield is to keep out magnetic fields that can introduce noise from power cables and the like.""

You believe this because you don't understand basic electronics.
In an unbalanced cable, the shield carrys return current, it is required to be connected at bothe ends.
post #68 of 206
^^^

hey don... it's AMAZING how well you read my mind sometimes...

you been blowin' your horn?
post #69 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccotenj View Post

what? you didn't notice the skakshi (sp?) stones?

I did, but I didn't want to embarrass you publicly.

I thought I might have seen an aftermarket power cable hiding there too, but it could have been a wandering garden snake.
post #70 of 206
^^^

lol...

actually you did see a couple "aftermarket" power cables... those are carefully handcrafted (of the finest materials, no less ) right here in beee-u-tiful collingswood...

i made those because the existing ones had the one problem that all power cables have, that being they don't work very well when they aren't long enough to reach the plug...

edit: back to speaker wire... you also didn't point out my custom speaker cables... you don't see purple speaker cables every day...
post #71 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Maybe you would like to actually listen to the whole interview, it seems you are taking the statement out of context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-dLu...elated&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVPGx...elated&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaqmf...W%20How%20Made

Also, you may want to listen to some Dynaudios sometime before deeming the designer illiterate and that his speakers are what they are due to pure luck.

Do you realize how ignorant that actually sounds?[/quote]

What kind of cabling does Dynaudio use inside their speakers?
post #72 of 206
Quote:
Maybe you would like to actually listen to the whole interview, it seems you are taking the statement out of context.

If it's out of context, who's fault is that?

Quote:
Also, you may want to listen to some Dynaudios sometime before deeming the designer illiterate and that his speakers are what they are due to pure luck.

Do you realize how ignorant that actually sounds?

Nah, someone's already cornered the market for ignorance in this thread.
post #73 of 206
One of my coworkers had to ask why I was laughing so much while I caught up on this thread during lunch today.
post #74 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

...

I just know they're going to fail me any day now. What will I do?

Yes, better have a backup plan in case it fails during a Bolero orgy
post #75 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyfi View Post

Was that for both of us or are you agreeing with Wilfred?

I am agreeing with Wilfred, all the way.
If you believe in what I wrote, it is for both of us.
post #76 of 206
Quote:
"Be aware that besides all technology, all measurements, all computers, and all theories; The human ear is so much more sensitive than ANY measurement instrument in the world"

It is just a bit of marketing hyperbole. We all know what he means, and that is along the lines that the human brain is capable of "perceiving" more cumulatively than what the instruments can measure singularly in individual tests.
post #77 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by chikoo View Post

When you design per specs, you get a product per specs.

When you design per specs and tweak it per the human feel, you get a product that cannot be imitated by competition.

Classic example:

BMW.
Everybody and their mother in the Automotive world are trying to make a car that drives as good as a BMW. They are able to get performance numbers that are better than a BMW, yet....Yet they always lose a shootout when actual drivers are driving the cars. Their reaction is that the BMW is talking to them (druggies....we should have known better and did a drug test before and after), and becomes one with the driver. The feeling is unexplainable. If it were one magazine that reported this, I would say they are on the BMW payroll, but everybody?

Think about it. There is more than measurements can tell. We have been able to identify only some of them. When the scientists identify all the attributes and their perfect measurements, come back and talk to me.

Then by all accounts all Italian cars are superior to German cars because there's more emotion involved

Cars are much more defined by the part spec and the way they are put together, there's no voodoo involved just as there isn't with a speaker wire. I don't think you'll get many car guys to say that BMW does something more "human" than the others, but more than likely they have more demanding specs and construction criteria.

I'd really like to know if Dynaudio uses voodoo wire inside their speakers to hook the components together...
post #78 of 206
Quote:
It is just a bit of marketing hyperbole. We all know what he means, and that is along the lines that the human brain is capable of "perceiving" more cumulatively than what the instruments can measure singularly in individual tests.

I wouldn't buy a speaker designed by you, either.

Quote:
Classic example:

BMW.
Everybody and their mother in the Automotive world are trying to make a car that drives as good as a BMW. They are able to get performance numbers that are better than a BMW, yet....Yet they always lose a shootout when actual drivers are driving the cars. Their reaction is that the BMW is talking to them (druggies....we should have known better and did a drug test before and after), and becomes one with the driver. The feeling is unexplainable. If it were one magazine that reported this, I would say they are on the BMW payroll, but everybody?

Think about it. There is more than measurements can tell. We have been able to identify only some of them. When the scientists identify all the attributes and their perfect measurements, come back and talk to me.

Or a car.

Definitely not a car.
post #79 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Then by all accounts all Italian cars are superior to German cars because there's more emotion involved

Cars are much more defined by the part spec and the way they are put together, there's no voodoo involved just as there isn't with a speaker wire. I don't think you'll get many car guys to say that BMW does something more "human" than the others, but more than likely they have more demanding specs and construction criteria.

I'd really like to know if Dynaudio uses voodoo wire inside their speakers to hook the components together...

BMW specs are not demanding any more than any of it's competitor.
It is the final "tuning" of the design by human feel that makes it what it is.
If it was made by specs alone, it would have been imitated a long time ago.
but it is not. It needs time, energy and passion to get that done.
post #80 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I can.


I wouldn't by any tech product designed by someone this dumb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

I wouldn't buy a speaker designed by you, either.


Or a car.

Definitely not a car.

I wouldn't buy a product that you designed and sold me only on specs and measurements alone. They NEVER tell the complete story. Not yet. When the scientists get all the parameters that matter and their optimal measurements in place, then only.
post #81 of 206
Quote:


BMW specs are not demanding any more than any of it's competitor.
It is the final "tuning" of the design by human feel that makes it what it is.

No, it's the power of suggestion.

Same thing with audio.

Quote:


I wouldn't buy a product that you designed and sold me only on specs and measurements alone. They NEVER tell the complete story. Not yet. When the scientists get all the parameters that matter and their optimal measurements in place, then only.

I suspect you have no clue what scientists do and do not know. But your faith in fairy dust is charming.
post #82 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus View Post

No, it's the power of suggestion.

Same thing with audio.


I suspect you have no clue what scientists do and do not know. But your faith in fairy dust is charming.

Won't convince this guy, he'd rather believe a sales pitch...one born every minute.
post #83 of 206
Quote:


Won't convince this guy, he'd rather believe a sales pitch.

Oh, believe me, I know.

But the idea that German (German!) automotive engineers tweak a car by trial and error to improve the driving experience is pretty funny.

If a tech product were designed by trial and error, I would not connect it to my house wiring under any circumstances.
post #84 of 206
@Chris: Had a major issue come up at work on Good Friday and have worked that day and every day since. Did have a concert in the middle, and it went pretty well. At least a fellow player told me he liked my solo in one piece and high-note work in Bruckner... Done one lead gig since but am gearing up for more this summer, and just signed on for a July 4th production that should be blast! Gotta' practice more...

@CharlesJ: I will never, ever, forgive you for mentioning "Bolero", one of the most dastardly pieces I think I have every heard or played! Just for that, I will mention the most unforgettable of all songs, guaranteed to stick with you until the end of time after one trip through the Disney ride; "It's a Small World". So there!
post #85 of 206
It often comes up that some people can hear things that can't be measured.

Well that may be true-IF they are using the WRONG measurement tool/system and/or have no idea what they are measuring or what to measure.

Very often people consider the only audio measurement tool to be an RTA. If you can't hear the differences that show up on an RTA-then you are deaf..

It is a pretty much worthless tool-for any sort of detailed measurements.

Using a better tool-you can "see" all sorts of things that you cannot hear.

I would love to challenge anybody to hear some of the changes that you can measure-and see if they can hear it. And even better-to be able to describe accurately what they are hearing.

Sometimes you can hear a difference-but which one is right?

I remember an audio conference a number of years ago on measurement and alignment-in which there were over 150 top audio guys in attendance.

At one point 2 different tracks were played. They were both pink noise-one was flat and the other had a "difference". You could hear a difference. But I am not sure that there was anybody who was SURE of which track was correct.

It was very easily measured-but not so easily determined.

A blind test is a lot harder than most people think. ESPECIALLY when you realize that you could be wrong-you really start to second guess what you are hearing. That is why the "golden ears" don't do double blind tests.

ANybody who has ever mixer sound for any length of time will tell you this same story. How many times has a musician asked for you to make a change-and before you actually make it-they say"Thats better"?

Or how many times have you adjusted the eq on a channel on a mixing console-only to realize that either the eq was bypassed-or you adjusted the wrong channel? But yet you SWEAR you heard the change you didn't make!

Anybody who says they haven't done that is either lying or hasn't done it long enough.

When you "think" you are making a change-it is not hard to convince your mind that you have actually made a change.

It is also quite funny how much even 0.5dB of a difference in level can change the whole tonal character of a loudspeaker-but that is another story-yes I have chased down tonal issues-that were only very slight level differences-and I was not along!
post #86 of 206
Quote:


It often comes up that some people can hear things that can't be measured.

Well that may be true-IF they are using the WRONG measurement tool/system and/or have no idea what they are measuring or what to measure.

Exactly. The average consumer has no idea how these things are designed. It's a bit like Asimov's comment about magic to him. So that marketing fluff about "the things you can't measure" makes perfect sense to him.

But man-made products are not mysteries of nature. If we didn't know how they worked—if we didn't know exactly how they worked—we couldn't design them at all. Anything we cannot measure, we cannot build. Period.
post #87 of 206
Thank you for the quick reply on my speaker wire turning green. I did trim the wires and scraped all the green recently when I installed good banana plugs. I upgraded the speaker connections on my JBL L-100s long ago to a more robust type. The old spring loaded ones were sure cheesy. Never understood that.

Again, thanks for setting my mind at ease on the slight corrosion issue. Now...stop making fun of the guy with the directional wires! We are know that expensive speaker wires a la Monster Cable from Best Buy are just a scam. When I went there in the past to buy something the guys would not leave me alone about upgrading my wires once he found out that I just used regular zip cord. There must be a high profit on these high-tech wires and that is only reason they want to sell them to you.
post #88 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post

Won't convince this guy, he'd rather believe a sales pitch...one born every minute.

The Barnum Effect at work.
post #89 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by DonH50 View Post

..

@CharlesJ: I will never, ever, forgive you for mentioning "Bolero", one of the most dastardly pieces I think I have every heard or played! Just for that, I will mention the most unforgettable of all songs, guaranteed to stick with you until the end of time after one trip through the Disney ride; "It's a Small World". So there!

That is super. Then I won't worry about dimensia
post #90 of 206
Quote:
Originally Posted by mirkolop View Post

... The old spring loaded ones were sure cheesy. Never understood that.
....

It is all about $

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan Beaver View Post

It often comes up that some people can hear things that can't be measured.

...

Not sure what instrument to use to measure their imagination.
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