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Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 85

post #2521 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

lol, if the two BB's that I got my 141 and now 65VT50 are in anyway an example of how BB sells these two plasma's, you are correct.
They couldn't get there 141 to work, and they where using the wrong 3D glasses on there 55ST50, just one of a few flaws in how they displayed the 55ST50.
It took about one hour of me directing there salesman and department head on how to setup there floor sample ST50. And all the time I had the salesman complaining to me why he wished he had waited and got to VT50 rather than getting his elite.
ss
Haha seems like standard BB to me. The bit with the salseman gave me a good laugh. biggrin.gif
post #2522 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by donnymac51 View Post

Do that on the display not on the remote and you should be fine.

Sorry I should mention I pressed Vol down on the tv and info on the remote. All i see is a selfcheck.
post #2523 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

2010 we bought a 51" lcd and the 42G25, the lcd came first. We were lcd people before then. The biggest offense of the lcd was the off angle view. I sit all over when watching tv and when we have guests I want them to have the best view. Plasma makes that easy-everyone is happy. wink.gif
Our first HDTV was a Samsung DLP RPTV in 2004. When we would have company I would have to strong arm people to sit in the sweet spot, which was about three people wide, so that they could see for themselves what HDTV was all about. Standing or any more than a few degrees of off angle would kill the PQ. eek.gif
post #2524 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

lol, if the two BB's that I got my 141 and now 65VT50 are in anyway an example of how BB sells these two plasma's, you are correct.
Recently I was in our closest BB which was located just on the other side of the freeway from the venture capital center of Silicon Valley. That's past tense because they closed it a couple of weeks ago. I was there to take a look at the Sharp Elite, and heard a sales person providing an amazing amount of misinformation to a prospective customer.

My understanding is that Panasonic purchased a lot of Pioneer's patents when they closed down their display business. I also understand that Panasonic hired some of Pioneer's plasma engineers. The third thing I understand is that Sharp purchased the rights to Pioneer's Elite name.

The BB/Magnolia sales person was telling his customer that Sharp purchased the whole Pioneer display division including the engineers, and that they had been spending the past two years converting the Pioneer Kuro technology to LCD. smile.gif

Is it any wonder that BB bought and then systematically destroyed Magnolia Audio-Video?
post #2525 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by azurisk View Post

Sorry I should mention I pressed Vol down on the tv and info on the remote. All i see is a selfcheck.

Press the Zero three times.

If you google "how to check hours on panasonic tv" you'll see a link to high def junkies- there are instructions there for EU models.
post #2526 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Press the Zero three times.
If you google "how to check hours on panasonic tv" you'll see a link to high def junkies- there are instructions there for EU models.

Thank you, I did visit that thread, but missed the EU info.

Is there anyone who can confirm that a factory reset also resets this counter? If so it would not be of much use to check the hours to see if the set has been used.
post #2527 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It was worth the wait.

Awesome Rogo. How is your experience so far? Sounds pretty good. I have been interested in hearing your impressions. And what is your ultimate verdict on the silver trim? smile.gif
post #2528 of 13457
Has anyone been watching "The laughing devils" show? The interviews are with an all black background and I am still quite floored that with that much black on the screen, I can't see the screen meet the bezel to save my life. I will post a pic later.
post #2529 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

Awesome Rogo. How is your experience so far? Sounds pretty good. I have been interested in hearing your impressions. And what is your ultimate verdict on the silver trim? smile.gif

So, let me share a couple of things.

1) I borrowed some settings from the forum to use in Custom mode. I have a tentative date for a calibration later in the year once the display has been "broken in". Once I shut off the soap-opera effect, dialed those in, accepted the new firmware, etc. the picture already looked pretty good.

2) Bad source is more noticeable at 65" than at 50". And by "bad source", I mean things like streamed Netflix, which -- in fairness -- tends to get better after it starts to believe there is bandwidth. I intend to attach an Ethernet cable and also allow my PS3 to pump Netflix again just for some A/B testing of that. I haven't played any BluRay yet because I haven't had time.

3) I don't seem to have the "vertical bar" that some people are complaining about.

4) I don't have any buzzing on black screen.

5) I have a very clear, audible buzz on white screen. I'm not yet sure how important this is, but there are some things to note about this. First, it appears to emerge from both sides of the panel. Second, it is absolutely correlated explicitly with the high brightness frames. The instant the frame goes to a lower average brightness, the sound stops. The reason I'm not sure this is a problem is because I'm not sure I can really hear it in a way that it matters yet. I should note that I have above-average hearing, had to return a buzzy plasma once, and am a bit concerned -- but right now just a bit. I'm kind of skeptical that there's a ton of unit-to-unit variation here, but I'd be curious to know if the people who really find their displays silent are really able to pause on a white screen and not hear a thing from the display. If so, I might be facing a return.

Thought "aloud": Maybe I should go to Best Buy and see if they have one on display I can "listen" to.

6) The trim is thin, but to me ugly, pointless and very reflective of light. Why it is not brushed / matte like on the Panasonic LCD is mystifying. I had to adjust the TV's location on my furniture to clear an overhead light I have as expected. But even now, there's a light about 20 feet away that hangs down and it reflects off the bezel. This adds nothing to my experience and really seems pointless.

7) I put a tiny square of electrical tape over the insanely bright red power LED. It is now invisible. What exactly is the point of that LED other than to detract from my viewing experience? I mean are people really testing these designs in a real living room and thinking, "Yes, a reflective bezel and an eye-searing LED are exactly what we need in 2012!"

8) The TV is clearly plenty bright. I realize there are LCD people who will want "whiter whites" but I'm not exactly sure to what effect. Eye exhaustion perhaps? I am satisfied by the brightness. I will watch some golf this weekend primarily to experience viewing the TV during the day which was nearly impossible on my older set. I look forward to being able to at least somewhat enjoy that on the new one.

9) The HDMI ports are far too close to the edge of the display. It seems impossible to use them all with decent cables without the cables sticking out from the side and being visible. Maybe one is supposed to use crappy cables with a smaller bend radius? (I use Monoprice cables, nothing fancy. Even with three plugged in, I can barely tuck them in.) I'm not sure how right-angle connectors are really going to solve the problem either unless they are of variable length. Ultimately, I will have a receiver hooked back up and only need a couple of the ports but for people who want to use all 4, this seems like a weird / bad design -- one of several weird/bad decisions.
post #2530 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by weedeater View Post

1.You should not hear buzzing more than a few feet away from the screen.
2. The larger sets (60"/65") do not swivel.

As someone who has felt the same way, I have to say this: I was watching TV without my headphones lastnight while everyone was sleeping, so I had the volume quite low but listenable. I could hear the buzzing at most scene transitions quite clearly. If I listened to TV this was normally it would drive me nuts. With that said, I would never normally listen at those levels and never hear buzzing at what I consider "normal" levels.

If you can hear buzzing and listen to your TV with 5.1 at my normal levels, you should not hear buzzing. If you do, at that point I would consider and exchange.

Just wanted to throw that out there as I know many people are wrestleing with the buzzing.
Edited by TopperMcFly - 6/14/12 at 4:43am
post #2531 of 13457
Thanks for sharing Rogo. Sounds like a fairly good report. I will just respond to a couple of your points and refer you to my buzzing post that I am sure you just read prior to this one, Maybe it will helpo you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So, let me share a couple of things.
1) I borrowed some settings from the forum to use in Custom mode. I have a tentative date for a calibration later in the year once the display has been "broken in". Once I shut off the soap-opera effect, dialed those in, accepted the new firmware, etc. the picture already looked pretty good.
2) Bad source is more noticeable at 65" than at 50". And by "bad source", I mean things like streamed Netflix, which -- in fairness -- tends to get better after it starts to believe there is bandwidth. I intend to attach an Ethernet cable and also allow my PS3 to pump Netflix again just for some A/B testing of that. I haven't played any BluRay yet because I haven't had time. I felt the same about Netflix. I did setup a repeater and direct wired my VT50 and it did make a difference. I find it looks just as good as the PS3. Maybe you will have the same luck. It is nice to not have to fire up the PS3. Some complain about no 5.1 from the TV but my receiver does a very good job of hiding that fact. Sounds just fine to me but may irk others.
3) I don't seem to have the "vertical bar" that some people are complaining about.
4) I don't have any buzzing on black screen.
5) I have a very clear, audible buzz on white screen. I'm not yet sure how important this is, but there are some things to note about this. First, it appears to emerge from both sides of the panel. Second, it is absolutely correlated explicitly with the high brightness frames. The instant the frame goes to a lower average brightness, the sound stops. The reason I'm not sure this is a problem is because I'm not sure I can really hear it in a way that it matters yet. I should note that I have above-average hearing, had to return a buzzy plasma once, and am a bit concerned -- but right now just a bit. I'm kind of skeptical that there's a ton of unit-to-unit variation here, but I'd be curious to know if the people who really find their displays silent are really able to pause on a white screen and not hear a thing from the display. If so, I might be facing a return.
Thought "aloud": Maybe I should go to Best Buy and see if they have one on display I can "listen" to.
6) The trim is thin, but to me ugly, pointless and very reflective of light. Why it is not brushed / matte like on the Panasonic LCD is mystifying. I had to adjust the TV's location on my furniture to clear an overhead light I have as expected. But even now, there's a light about 20 feet away that hangs down and it reflects off the bezel. This adds nothing to my experience and really seems pointless. I am a bit suprised by this but everyone is different. I am glad it is at least not a deal breaker for you.
7) I put a tiny square of electrical tape over the insanely bright red power LED. It is now invisible. What exactly is the point of that LED other than to detract from my viewing experience? I mean are people really testing these designs in a real living room and thinking, "Yes, a reflective bezel and an eye-searing LED are exactly what we need in 2012!" What he said! biggrin.gif
8) The TV is clearly plenty bright. I realize there are LCD people who will want "whiter whites" but I'm not exactly sure to what effect. Eye exhaustion perhaps? I am satisfied by the brightness. I will watch some golf this weekend primarily to experience viewing the TV during the day which was nearly impossible on my older set. I look forward to being able to at least somewhat enjoy that on the new one.
9) The HDMI ports are far too close to the edge of the display. It seems impossible to use them all with decent cables without the cables sticking out from the side and being visible. Maybe one is supposed to use crappy cables with a smaller bend radius? (I use Monoprice cables, nothing fancy. Even with three plugged in, I can barely tuck them in.) I'm not sure how right-angle connectors are really going to solve the problem either unless they are of variable length. Ultimately, I will have a receiver hooked back up and only need a couple of the ports but for people who want to use all 4, this seems like a weird / bad design -- one of several weird/bad decisions.See my next post

Thanks again Rogo
Edited by TopperMcFly - 6/14/12 at 4:44am
post #2532 of 13457
For those that do not like how close the HDMI connections are to the outside edge of the set. Two of these will create a 180 for that shallow HDMI connection. They work perfectly. There are different orientations for these, so be sure to use the ones in this link or be very careful to order the right orientation. wink.gif

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004PW3DKS/ref=oh_details_o02_s00_i00
post #2533 of 13457
I was taking some measurements and found that the stand that I've been using for my Pioneer plasma is 18" tall and with the 65VT50 (due to arrive today) the stand should be around 24" tall to clear my center channel speaker.

Anyone figure out a temporary solution to raise the display 6" while I figure out a more permanent solution?
Edited by JimP - 6/14/12 at 4:43am
post #2534 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

I was taking some measurements and found that the stand that I've been using for my Pioneer plasma is 18" tall and with the 65VT50 (due to arrive today) the stand should be around 24" tall to clear my center channel speaker.
Anyone figure out a temporary solution to raise the display 6" while I figure out a more permanent solution?

6 inches is a tall order. Too much to ask of butcher block or granite. You will have to make something custom or wall mount.
post #2535 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So, let me share a couple of things.
1) I borrowed some settings from the forum to use in Custom mode. I have a tentative date for a calibration later in the year once the display has been "broken in". Once I shut off the soap-opera effect, dialed those in, accepted the new firmware, etc. the picture already looked pretty good.
2) Bad source is more noticeable at 65" than at 50". And by "bad source", I mean things like streamed Netflix, which -- in fairness -- tends to get better after it starts to believe there is bandwidth. I intend to attach an Ethernet cable and also allow my PS3 to pump Netflix again just for some A/B testing of that. I haven't played any BluRay yet because I haven't had time.
3) I don't seem to have the "vertical bar" that some people are complaining about.
4) I don't have any buzzing on black screen.
5) I have a very clear, audible buzz on white screen. I'm not yet sure how important this is, but there are some things to note about this. First, it appears to emerge from both sides of the panel. Second, it is absolutely correlated explicitly with the high brightness frames. The instant the frame goes to a lower average brightness, the sound stops. The reason I'm not sure this is a problem is because I'm not sure I can really hear it in a way that it matters yet. I should note that I have above-average hearing, had to return a buzzy plasma once, and am a bit concerned -- but right now just a bit. I'm kind of skeptical that there's a ton of unit-to-unit variation here, but I'd be curious to know if the people who really find their displays silent are really able to pause on a white screen and not hear a thing from the display. If so, I might be facing a return.
Thought "aloud": Maybe I should go to Best Buy and see if they have one on display I can "listen" to.
6) The trim is thin, but to me ugly, pointless and very reflective of light. Why it is not brushed / matte like on the Panasonic LCD is mystifying. I had to adjust the TV's location on my furniture to clear an overhead light I have as expected. But even now, there's a light about 20 feet away that hangs down and it reflects off the bezel. This adds nothing to my experience and really seems pointless.
7) I put a tiny square of electrical tape over the insanely bright red power LED. It is now invisible. What exactly is the point of that LED other than to detract from my viewing experience? I mean are people really testing these designs in a real living room and thinking, "Yes, a reflective bezel and an eye-searing LED are exactly what we need in 2012!"
8) The TV is clearly plenty bright. I realize there are LCD people who will want "whiter whites" but I'm not exactly sure to what effect. Eye exhaustion perhaps? I am satisfied by the brightness. I will watch some golf this weekend primarily to experience viewing the TV during the day which was nearly impossible on my older set. I look forward to being able to at least somewhat enjoy that on the new one.
9) The HDMI ports are far too close to the edge of the display. It seems impossible to use them all with decent cables without the cables sticking out from the side and being visible. Maybe one is supposed to use crappy cables with a smaller bend radius? (I use Monoprice cables, nothing fancy. Even with three plugged in, I can barely tuck them in.) I'm not sure how right-angle connectors are really going to solve the problem either unless they are of variable length. Ultimately, I will have a receiver hooked back up and only need a couple of the ports but for people who want to use all 4, this seems like a weird / bad design -- one of several weird/bad decisions.

Try the more flexible cables. I lost an HDMI port to one of Monoprices "better" cables. I now use the MediaBridge cables sold on Amazon. There is no difference in the picture or audio. They are much more flexible and have the ARC channel if needed.
post #2536 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

9) The HDMI ports are far too close to the edge of the display. It seems impossible to use them all with decent cables without the cables sticking out from the side and being visible. Maybe one is supposed to use crappy cables with a smaller bend radius? (I use Monoprice cables, nothing fancy. Even with three plugged in, I can barely tuck them in.) I'm not sure how right-angle connectors are really going to solve the problem either unless they are of variable length. Ultimately, I will have a receiver hooked back up and only need a couple of the ports but for people who want to use all 4, this seems like a weird / bad design -- one of several weird/bad decisions.

I use these 8 inch flexible cables from Monoprice:

Monoprice Port Saver Male to Female

They bend easily and I connect them to the much thicker in-wall cables from monoprice.

- Rich
post #2537 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

So, let me share a couple of things.

5) I have a very clear, audible buzz on white screen. I'm not yet sure how important this is, but there are some things to note about this. First, it appears to emerge from both sides of the panel. Second, it is absolutely correlated explicitly with the high brightness frames. The instant the frame goes to a lower average brightness, the sound stops. The reason I'm not sure this is a problem is because I'm not sure I can really hear it in a way that it matters yet. I should note that I have above-average hearing, had to return a buzzy plasma once, and am a bit concerned -- but right now just a bit. I'm kind of skeptical that there's a ton of unit-to-unit variation here, but I'd be curious to know if the people who really find their displays silent are really able to pause on a white screen and not hear a thing from the display. If so, I might be facing a return.
Thought "aloud": Maybe I should go to Best Buy and see if they have one on display I can "listen" to.

I went to my local Panasonic retailer (purchased the TV from them) to have a listen to their display models, taking D-Nice slides to run through all the different colors. We tested the 50" first, we could hear some buzzing on the white slide but we had to be very close to the screen to hear it. Moving onto the 55", same test, the buzzing was very noticeable and more akin to what mine sounded like. Credit to the store they on the spot agreed to see if a replacement would be any better.
The test I always use at home to demonstrate the buzzing is the Wii home screen. With that even from 12 feet away with normal volume you can here the buzzing over the music.

Hoping the replacement is better......
post #2538 of 13457
I'm intrigued by these cables from Monoprice. They're ultra thin so they should have a pretty small bend radius. CL2-rated so they can go in-wall. The whole "directional cable" thing still seems odd though.

Monoprice RedMere HDMI Cables
post #2539 of 13457
Just got my replacement (because of buzzing and dead pixels)

The good news is I see dead pixels no more !! wink.gif The new panel is perfect in that regard.
On the issue of buzzing, the previous panel was really loud on anything bright like whites/greys or even the menu and the USB player.. This one is less noisy there is no doubt about that. I have to say though I still hear buzzing from a normal viewing distance, but I believe it is much more manageable.

One advice I got from someone and that I intend to follow, is to put a slim acoustic panel on the wall back to the TV. It should absorb close to all the buzzing sound emitted by the panel and reflected on the wall towards the front. I've even seen pictures of people using acoustic tiles from drop a ceiling and some paint to make them more discrete with the wall color or even black to try and blend with the TV.

Anyway I'm now at ease with my new superb TV wink.gif
post #2540 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

My 55" arrived today and it does not buzz at all. Also, chapter 19 of Collateral looks better than it did on the GT50, but there is still some dithering and DSE but not what I would call a real problem.

Do you miss the bigger size of the GT? Can you even tell?
post #2541 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbrady3324 View Post

I have a Pro-141fd and 500m so that is exciting news for me

I have seen a few comparisons to these models, but, does anybody know how the Panasonic compare to something like the Pioneer 6010?
post #2542 of 13457
(Rogo congrats!)

I'm hoping a current 65VT50 owner or owners with a similar set up and usage situation as mine can talk me off the fence. I am finally more or less ready to pull the trigger on a large set.

A few things:

-I love the 70" Elite but can't justify the price. I also love the 65 VT50.

-I've seen way too many issues with clouding in the various cheaper Sharp 70" LCDs to take a chance that I get a perfect one.

-The set will be in a room with a fair number of windows but we don't do all that much day time viewing, and when we do it tends to be at times of days when there's no direct sunlight shining onto the location of the tv.

-Primary sources are awful Cablevision stb with graphics heavy UI, and PS3 for BR and Netflix.

-Here's the potential kicker: I have two kids who love to forget to shut the system down when done. It's not unusual for me to find the set on in the morning, after having been left on overnight, with the PS3/Netflix interface or CV gui sitting there static on the screen. So yeah this could be 8-10 hours.

Obviously I'm worried about short term image retention and long term burn in. My kids are young yet, and so no matter how many times I remind them to always shut down, sometimes they simpy forget and I have to accept that!

Is there anyone out there living with a similar situation with direct experience with the impact in this set?

Many TIA.
post #2543 of 13457
anthony......simple, give them your old set and hook up the game console to that one. You were getting rid of it anyway..
post #2544 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

Has anyone been watching "The laughing devils" show? The interviews are with an all black background and I am still quite floored that with that much black on the screen, I can't see the screen meet the bezel to save my life. I will post a pic later.

Looks great doesnt it? blacker than black
post #2545 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

anthony......simple, give them your old set and hook up the game console to that one. You were getting rid of it anyway..

Unfortunately not that simple. The existing set (40" LCD) is going into our bedroom, the only other place in the house we want a TV.

Said another way, the 65 would become the 'family set' no matter what.
post #2546 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimP View Post

anthony......simple, give them your old set and hook up the game console to that one. You were getting rid of it anyway..

I'll second that. It's what I was going to suggest also. Just put it in one of the kid's rooms, or some other out of the main area spot.

Another thing to think about is the sleep timer maybe? If only there was a way to make the TV turn itself off after, say 2 hours, and it's always set this way when it's turned on automatically.

Since, I've never used a sleep timer, I don't know if that is possible.

"Fist time the TV is left on overnight, is the last time you'll be playing games on it.". Some kids are just too stubborn for this to work, though. Give them a year, without games, after the first offense, then see if this works.
Edited by CatBrat - 6/14/12 at 10:03am
post #2547 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonymoody View Post

(Rogo congrats!)
I'm hoping a current 65VT50 owner or owners with a similar set up and usage situation as mine can talk me off the fence. I am finally more or less ready to pull the trigger on a large set.
A few things:
-I love the 70" Elite but can't justify the price. I also love the 65 VT50.
-I've seen way too many issues with clouding in the various cheaper Sharp 70" LCDs to take a chance that I get a perfect one.
-The set will be in a room with a fair number of windows but we don't do all that much day time viewing, and when we do it tends to be at times of days when there's no direct sunlight shining onto the location of the tv.
-Primary sources are awful Cablevision stb with graphics heavy UI, and PS3 for BR and Netflix.
-Here's the potential kicker: I have two kids who love to forget to shut the system down when done. It's not unusual for me to find the set on in the morning, after having been left on overnight, with the PS3/Netflix interface or CV gui sitting there static on the screen. So yeah this could be 8-10 hours.
Obviously I'm worried about short term image retention and long term burn in. My kids are young yet, and so no matter how many times I remind them to always shut down, sometimes they simpy forget and I have to accept that!
Is there anyone out there living with a similar situation with direct experience with the impact in this set?
Many TIA.

Wow man, you need to pull the trigger one way or the other. If you are still on the fence after all of the guidance towards the vt50 that you have received here, then I don't know what will get you off the fence. You are in a forum of plasma folks. I don't know that you are going to get someone here to recommend the elite over the vt50 no matter how many different ways you pose the same question.

Get the vt50 and make it work. The ps3 has a Set Auto Off feature to turn off the console after a period of inactivity specified by you. There you go problem solved. Now go get your vt50 before you come up with something else. Self torture is never a good thing. Letting it go this long is even worse.

The Elite is for one lonely guy that sits in the sweet spot and doesn't mind poor color, poor off axis viewing, poor motion, and rich price.
Edited by TopperMcFly - 6/14/12 at 10:13am
post #2548 of 13457
I looked at the Elite and was only impressed by the size. That was all. For daily viewing, I'd take the 65VT50 anytime over the Elite.
post #2549 of 13457
I was on the fence also, just loved the picture on the VT50 but also really wanted a large tv.
I went with the Sharp 80le844 - size won

Once you get it home, and move away from direct comparisons, I usually don't find as many faults
post #2550 of 13457
Quote:
Originally Posted by wlcohen View Post

I was on the fence also, just loved the picture on the VT50 but also really wanted a large tv.
I went with the Sharp 80le844 - size won
Once you get it home, and move away from direct comparisons, I usually don't find as many faults

Not to knock your purchase, but I gotta comment here. I had that exact set in my living room next to the vt30 I had. Without trying to sound like an a hole, I have to say that the picture on the sharp was so so so bad that I can hardly put it into words. Side by side the sharp was so noisy and pixelated, that it never made it onto my wall. I saw this set at BB and saw how bad it was but read happy reviews so I tried it anyway. I plugged in every set of settings I could find on the net including cnets and it still looked like a giant turd.

Size may have won but that's all that won dude. The sharp 80 IMO is the worst display that has ever been under my roof. I really hate being so brutal but had to be said. If you are happy that is really all that matters.

******* Correction. I had the 732U. I am not sure that there have been in ground breaking improvements between models, but wanted to be fair.
Edited by TopperMcFly - 6/14/12 at 10:52am
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