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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hurin 
The Katzmaier (Cnet) review of the VT25:
The Katzmaier (Cnet) review of the VT30:
Finally, the VT50 review. . .
In the case of the VT50 Cnet review, I assume Mr. Katzmaier may have found the subtle flickering in 96Hz distasteful enough that he didn't spend nearly as much time in it as he did with the VT30 or VT25, and thus did not have ample opportunity to notice the issue as he did in those prior two reviews.
Finally, here is an AVS thread that discusses the artifacts on the VT25 and VT30 in detail. Towards the end, there is some discussion of how/why some people may be more sensitive to this issue than others (thus accounting for why it is often not noted despite it being so starkly visible to some). In the words of one poster, the artifact is being generated by the brain, and is not physically present on the screen of the TV. Heh, lucky me.
I do concur with you, as do the CNet reviews, that through some magic 60Hz is somehow panning just as smoothly (cadence-wise) as the 96Hz mode. And this has been the case since the VT30. And, that is the reason why this is not likely a deal-breaker for me. I wonder if it's actually running internally at 72Hz or otherwise performing some shenanigans to get rid of pulldown jerkiness. But hey, whatever it's doing, it's working. . . and working better than the 96Hz mode that should be superior.
In the end, I'd still love to hear some direct feedback from VT50 owners (please see my prior post about a scene in Gladiator where, if you're going to see it, it can't be missed) who are also seeing this issue. If only for peace of mind and/or confirmation that my TV isn't uniquely (or nearly so) flawed. Though I too doubt that my unit is defective due to this issue, if the 96Hz "issue" continues with this series, it's something worth documenting for its own sake (IMHO). Especially considering that the 96Hz mode is marketed as a major differential between the VT and lesser series.
Best Regards,
H
Quote:
Artifacts at 24fps and 96Hz was a well documented phenomenon with both the VT30 and VT25. My concern is that the VT50 was (until now) judged to be clear of them. I guess I'm the guy saying (sadly). . . it's not.Originally Posted by TopperMcFly
Is it possible that it is introducing unwanted artifacts? I guess it could be. But that would seem counter intuitive.
Is it possible that it is introducing unwanted artifacts? I guess it could be. But that would seem counter intuitive.
The Katzmaier (Cnet) review of the VT25:
we did experience some artifacts in the 1080p/24-friendly 96Hz mod
. . .
On the other hand, we were surprised to find that the VT20/25 evinced false contouring artifacts in 96Hz mode. They were relatively rare, but certainly obvious when we saw them, which was only in transitions between bright and dark areas that moved across the screen. We first noticed it in Chapter 12 (47:25), where the glow of the pods illuminating the Omaticaya council showed banding contours as opposed to the smooth gradation from light to dark seen on the other displays. Similar bands were visible in the torch Neytiri extinguishes in Chapter 11 (36:30). No adjustment we tried seemed to affect the issue, aside from switching back to 60Hz, which made the contouring much less noticeable (and no worse than on the other sets). In our view the correct cadence is worth the tradeoff for occasional contouring artifacts, so we kept the set at 96Hz for movies, but we wish we didn't have to make that decision. We also looked at the V10 from last year and saw similar contouring in 96Hz, which we missed in our initial review.
. . .
On the other hand, we were surprised to find that the VT20/25 evinced false contouring artifacts in 96Hz mode. They were relatively rare, but certainly obvious when we saw them, which was only in transitions between bright and dark areas that moved across the screen. We first noticed it in Chapter 12 (47:25), where the glow of the pods illuminating the Omaticaya council showed banding contours as opposed to the smooth gradation from light to dark seen on the other displays. Similar bands were visible in the torch Neytiri extinguishes in Chapter 11 (36:30). No adjustment we tried seemed to affect the issue, aside from switching back to 60Hz, which made the contouring much less noticeable (and no worse than on the other sets). In our view the correct cadence is worth the tradeoff for occasional contouring artifacts, so we kept the set at 96Hz for movies, but we wish we didn't have to make that decision. We also looked at the V10 from last year and saw similar contouring in 96Hz, which we missed in our initial review.
The Katzmaier (Cnet) review of the VT30:
Like the ST30 and GT30 series, the VT30 correctly handled 1080p/24 cadence in its 60Hz mode. Furthermore, we noticed the same kinds of false contouring artifacts in 96Hz mode on the VT30 that we've seen on earlier so-equipped Panasonic plasmas, like the VT25 (see that review for more details). For these reasons we decided to use 60Hz mode for our evaluations and calibration.
Finally, the VT50 review. . .
Both the 60Hz and the 96Hz mode handled 1080p/24 sources properly in my test, and this year I didn't notice any extra false-contouring artifacts when setting the TV in 96Hz mode. I did detect slight flicker in 96Hz in bright areas, for example the clouds over Brooklyn in "I Am Legend" (24:49).
In the case of the VT50 Cnet review, I assume Mr. Katzmaier may have found the subtle flickering in 96Hz distasteful enough that he didn't spend nearly as much time in it as he did with the VT30 or VT25, and thus did not have ample opportunity to notice the issue as he did in those prior two reviews.
Finally, here is an AVS thread that discusses the artifacts on the VT25 and VT30 in detail. Towards the end, there is some discussion of how/why some people may be more sensitive to this issue than others (thus accounting for why it is often not noted despite it being so starkly visible to some). In the words of one poster, the artifact is being generated by the brain, and is not physically present on the screen of the TV. Heh, lucky me.
I do concur with you, as do the CNet reviews, that through some magic 60Hz is somehow panning just as smoothly (cadence-wise) as the 96Hz mode. And this has been the case since the VT30. And, that is the reason why this is not likely a deal-breaker for me. I wonder if it's actually running internally at 72Hz or otherwise performing some shenanigans to get rid of pulldown jerkiness. But hey, whatever it's doing, it's working. . . and working better than the 96Hz mode that should be superior.
In the end, I'd still love to hear some direct feedback from VT50 owners (please see my prior post about a scene in Gladiator where, if you're going to see it, it can't be missed) who are also seeing this issue. If only for peace of mind and/or confirmation that my TV isn't uniquely (or nearly so) flawed. Though I too doubt that my unit is defective due to this issue, if the 96Hz "issue" continues with this series, it's something worth documenting for its own sake (IMHO). Especially considering that the 96Hz mode is marketed as a major differential between the VT and lesser series.
Best Regards,
H
There is not much more to say here but thanks for putting the effort in to dig all that up. I agree that with 96hz being a big selling point over the lesser models, it feels like a punch in the gut. I suppose for me that the slightly better blacks and one sheet designed make it a bit more palatable. I have not had an issue as you have with 96hz mode. But if 60hz works essentially exactly the same, then what difference does it make?
Being a guy, I probably would have went with the VT anyway but shame on Panny none the less.
Thanks man
With all that said, it is reasonable to say that leaving your set in 60hz mode should be a default. Taking that out of the equation only leaves us with motion smoother when trying to clean pans up in terms of sharpness. And we all know now that leaves you with a trade off. Which is no SOE at Weak or Off but with expected judder or with SOE at Medium or High with far sharper imagery in pans.
This is a trade off with any set out there at the moment. I only question why Panny removed the 120hz high and low setting from last year as it seemed to help a bit without introducing SOE. My guess would be that they just hard coded it this year. Who knows?
