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Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 183

post #5461 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fanaticalism View Post

I posted a response to a post of mine you quoted explaining the different variables of IR. It was a post from Xrox who hardly posts anymore but was one of the most knowledgeable people on this forum.
Here it is again.

Thanks, I saw it the first time, but all you posted was a limited glossary of terms. I was talking about something more detailed, preferably with diagrams. For instance, how does something like the "pixel flipper" help "MgO sputtering", which is what I think I have. I can only see the IR in a white/grey screen. Any color, and it's gone 100%.

It would be great if we could get the plasma engineer from the 2012 VE shootout to explain some of this.

EDIT: Did some googling, and I found a version of your post by xrox in another forum. He seemed to have some more (very helpful) details:
Quote:
Forget the confusing terminology that is constantly interchanged and mixed up. Here is the scientific info you can trust:

Burn-In, Image retention, image sticking, image ghosting, residual image....etc are all terminology that is constanly interchanged even though there are several mechanisms involved.

Here is a list of the actual mechanisms that I know of in order of probability (most probable first)

1 - phosphorescence - there is a long afterglow component of phosphors that can be seen even when the display is off. It is very very faint however and eventually dissipates.

2 - Residual charge - Plasma displays use dielectric charges to control the on or off states of the pixel. If there is a slight residual charge left when the pixel is turned off the next time it turns on the pixel will be slightly brighter than normal. This will show up as a ghost image on a dark screen. You can tell it is residual charge because the ghost image is slightly brighter than the dark background. This ghost image is transient and easily removed by either a full white screen or watching full screen material for a few hours.

3 - MgO Sputtering - High energy discharge in Plasma displays causes Magnesium Oxide to sputter and deposit onto the phosphor and adjacent pixels. The result is a long lasting ghost image that can take many days to remove. It can be seen as a slightly darker image on a full white screen. Ironically, a full white screen for many hours is the best course of action to resolve this issue as it normalized the deposition of MgO to all pixels (evens it out)

4 - Phosphor aging - Permanent aging of the phosphor material that causes a slightly darker ghost image that is irreversible.

Finally, the screen wipe feature is not useless and will not aggressively "age" your display. It is there to normalize wall charge and MgO deposition (see why above). Remember, plasma displays use dynamic brightness control, so a full white screen or a scrolling white bar should not aggressively age your display.

So, if I do indeed have that NBC logo in the form of MgO sputtering (and hopefully not phosphor aging), I shouldn't be using a pixel flipper but instead just the brightest white slide in D-Nice's stack.

Going to give that a try. Even better, the neighbors and I can use our wifi smile.gif.
Edited by Tempest261 - 8/7/12 at 4:42pm
post #5462 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post

Thanks you very much for the advice. I went to Bestbuy yesterday and saw them both. The 55" vt50 was in the dark theater room of the magnolia section with a 90" Sharp. The vt50 was a really beautiful tv. i thought the Sasung pne8000 was also really nice. I noticed the dithering on the 65" vt50 but the 55" in the theater room I didn't notice it as much. My problem is I am sitting very close to my tv and I am worried the dithering will be very noticeable and that's another reason I am considering the Samsung, it's 4 inches smaller. I really wish they made a 50" vt50 this year. Also the Samsung is $300.00 cheaper, comes with a bundled galaxy tablet from Newegg and comes with the glasses.
I am so confused, my family wants to kill me. Everyday I wake up I choose a different tv. I am so conflicted between the samsung and panny.
For what ever reason the 51" Samsung do not test very well compared to the larger sized samsung, in fact they are pretty far behind the 60" and 64" Samsung E8000. The 55VT50 is a far better set than the PN51E8000. The 60E8000 and 64E8000 are much closer to the VT50 quality, but still did not test as well as the VT50.
post #5463 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleveland Plasma View Post

For what ever reason the 51" Samsung do not test very well compared to the larger sized samsung, in fact they are pretty far behind the 60" and 64" Samsung E8000. The 55VT50 is a far better set than the PN51E8000. The 60E8000 and 64E8000 are much closer to the VT50 quality, but still did not test as well as the VT50.

It should also be mentioned that the VT50 is noticeably brighter than the E8000, at least when they're side-by-side and cranked to full contrast. This was *hugely* important in my decision, as going from LCD->Plasma is already a bit of a shock in the brightness dept.
post #5464 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

Just go into Menu/setup/Bluetooth settings/Bluetooth devices. From there, put your headset into pairing mode and it should detect it. When I put my receiver into standby mode, it passes audio to the tv, which I can then pass to the headset.
Sometimes I have to cycle the Bluetooth once or twice to get it to stay connected. It works great.

Awesome, thanks .... can't wait to use this. Don't have my set yet, will be ordering in a week or 2.
post #5465 of 13486
I like to keep the pixel orbiter on to prevent IR. I noticed though that when watching Netflix using Viera Connect, the menu options does not let me check to see if pixel orbiter is on.

Does anyone know if pixel orbiter is on when using Viera Connect because if not, I would be cautious when using Netflix or any other apps. Thanks.
post #5466 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

Sounds like the same setup as my local BB/Magnolia. I believe the 55" has a better feed than the 65" which could be the difference you see instead of the size difference. Also, don't forget to check the settings on each one. I have seen the 65" look AMAZING and so so, depending on how it has been adjusted.

I still haven't decided yet. Definitely leaning towards the vt50. I have until thursday morning to decide.

Have you thought of getting a 50" GT50 instead?
post #5467 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Kenobi View Post

What distance are you guys sitting? I've been watching mine for IR and have played a few hours of COD on Xbox as well as watched long movies with black bars but have not detected any IR. I'm 13' from the screen but when I'm really checking for IR I move up to about 2' and see nothing different at either distance. I don't run the scrolling deal, never ran the slides, just mixed content and a few nights of full screen movies on repeat to break it in.

I'm sitting 10' from the TV, and I can see the IR. Like I said, it is fading, but it never should have happened in the first place.
post #5468 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by WiFi-Spy View Post

Have you thought of getting a 50" GT50 instead?

I did and that was my first one I thought about but I really want the top model and I saved enough for it, i read some review once where it said sometimes even though the panels are the same, the better ones could be saved for the best model and I really want a nice tv.
post #5469 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

...I can easily tell that most of the IR complaints are from slide watchers and that should be disclosed when reporting IR so I can ignore the post. Just my 2 cents.

I can assure you my IR complaint is NOT from watching slides. I have seen it while watching content, as well as when running the Anti Image Retention scroll trying to wipe it. I wouldn't consider it being anal when it shows up, no matter how briefly, while watching content.
post #5470 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7th Angel View Post

I can assure you my IR complaint is NOT from watching slides. I have seen it while watching content, as well as when running the Anti Image Retention scroll trying to wipe it. I wouldn't consider it being anal when it shows up, no matter how briefly, while watching content.

It's comments like these that scare me.
post #5471 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mnc View Post

I still haven't decided yet. Definitely leaning towards the vt50. I have until thursday morning to decide.
Earlier you said that you sit very close and that you're worried that a 55" display will be too big and that you might see dithering from where you sit. It's hard to give you advise because you didn't mention how close "very close" is to the screen. You can read about optimum distances here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance

You should be fine if you're not closer than 6.5" with a 55" screen. The THX recommendation for a 60" screen is 6', and for a 50" screen it's 5'.

The search term I used with Google was "HDTV recommended viewing distance. Google had a list up before I finished typing recommended. smile.gif
post #5472 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post

It's comments like these that scare me.

While they shouldn't scare you, it's a good thing that you know about these issues.

However, keep in mind that they are rare, and USUALLY reversible. I literally had to have the NBC Olympics on *all day* before I saw any IR, but it does indeed occur on this set. Compared to a 2012 LCD, which has virtually guaranteed poor screen uniformity, plasma can develop poor screen uniformity (IR) and (again, usually) reverse it.

As for the "if you don't see it in solid-colored slides, it's not a problem" mentality, I couldn't disagree more. Slides and patterns exist to show the extreme corner cases of what the panel will have to display, and often these corner cases can occur in regular content. Are they typical? No, but they do occur, and it's best to try to identify them and try to correct them up front rather than discover them in regular content later. For instance, I was able to clearly see the IR in my blu-ray player's home screen (pretty much all gone now though).
post #5473 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post


I did and that was my first one I thought about but I really want the top model and I saved enough for it, i read some review once where it said sometimes even though the panels are the same, the better ones could be saved for the best model and I really want a nice tv.
That's what I would call an Internet Myth. It was claimed for some of the Pioneer Elite models but not all of them. I wouldn't use that information as a buying criteria.It's also been claimed for other displays. It's probably better to look at actual features and how they match up with the way you want to use your display.
post #5474 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7th Angel View Post

I can assure you my IR complaint is NOT from watching slides. I have seen it while watching content, as well as when running the Anti Image Retention scroll trying to wipe it. I wouldn't consider it being anal when it shows up, no matter how briefly, while watching content.

It's comments like these that scare me.
If you're the type who must obliterate the faintest signs of IR, no matter how briefly they show up, then it would probably be best for you and your family to get something else. On the other hand, if you're the type who gets involved in the story or the action that you're watching, then it will take more than a brief glimpse of IR to distract you.

There are a small percentage of people who are susceptible to seeing what was called the "rainbow effect" when watching DLP displays. Some of those people adapted and forgot about the effect. Some of the same group just avoided DLP displays. A third very small group of those people, who could see the "rainbow effect", attacked the vast majority of DLP owners as people who just couldn't face reality.

It's hard to avoid watching the images instead of the "story" when anyone has a new display, but it's possible. Almost everyone does it fairly soon. smile.gif
post #5475 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

So far so good. After a day (about 9.5 hours) of running the pixel flipper the NBC logo is almost completely gone, and is only barely visible in one of D-Nice's grey slides.

So you watched one day of Olympics (8-12 hours?), and then ran the pixel flipper for 9.5 hours to get rid of the NBC logo?

Michael
post #5476 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Earlier you said that you sit very close and that you're worried that a 55" display will be too big and that you might see dithering from where you sit. It's hard to give you advise because you didn't mention how close "very close" is to the screen. You can read about optimum distances here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimum_HDTV_viewing_distance
You should be fine if you're not closer than 6.5" with a 55" screen. The THX recommendation for a 60" screen is 6', and for a 50" screen it's 5'.
The search term I used with Google was "HDTV recommended viewing distance. Google had a list up before I finished typing recommended. smile.gif

I'm 5 feet away. But i sit on my bed so it varies a lot depending on where I sit. I think 55" will be ok.
post #5477 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's what I would call an Internet Myth. It was claimed for some of the Pioneer Elite models but not all of them. I wouldn't use that information as a buying criteria.It's also been claimed for other displays. It's probably better to look at actual features and how they match up with the way you want to use your display.

Ya I didn't know if it was true I just read it in a review which I can't remember, I think it was in regards to the samsung plasmas but I just always figure the best has to be the best but I guess I could be wrong.
post #5478 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

If you're the type who must obliterate the faintest signs of IR, no matter how briefly they show up, then it would probably be best for you and your family to get something else. On the other hand, if you're the type who gets involved in the story or the action that you're watching, then it will take more than a brief glimpse of IR to distract you.
There are a small percentage of people who are susceptible to seeing what was called the "rainbow effect" when watching DLP displays. Some of those people adapted and forgot about the effect. Some of the same group just avoided DLP displays. A third very small group of those people, who could see the "rainbow effect", attacked the vast majority of DLP owners as people who just couldn't face reality.
It's hard to avoid watching the images instead of the "story" when anyone has a new display, but it's possible. Almost everyone does it fairly soon. smile.gif

Ya even though I drive my family crazy, it's my tv and I really mostly watch it alone or with my girlfriend so I can take care of it the way I want and be careful what I leave on the screen.
post #5479 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

You mean World of Warcraft? I'm partial to Starcraft 2 myself smile.gif
WOW = Disney World of Wonder. It's a pretty decent calibration disc. The pixel flipper is actually an app, not a video source, so it automatically matches to the 1:1 ratio of your screen, and never dies.
So far so good. After a day (about 9.5 hours) of running the pixel flipper the NBC logo is almost completely gone, and is only barely visible in one of D-Nice's grey slides.
I understand the basic idea, but I really wish I knew more about the physics behind IR AND burn-in. Anyone have any good links explaining it?

I'm just not understanding how it could interfere with wireless in your condo.
post #5480 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by strong island 1 View Post

It's comments like these that scare me.

I don't see why... read on
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

That's what I would call an Internet Myth. It was claimed for some of the Pioneer Elite models but not all of them. I wouldn't use that information as a buying criteria.It's also been claimed for other displays. It's probably better to look at actual features and how they match up with the way you want to use your display.

I'm certain that panel "cherry picking" is not happening. No manufacturer seems to have serious QC at the factory, let alone a way to cherry-pick the best panels at the pre-assembly stage. In order to do this, they'd need to bench test every panel extensively. Based on what see coming out of the box at retail, we know they barely test them at all. It's not even entirely clear all panels are tested beyond a few seconds of "does it turn on". Watching videos of LCD factories seems to confirm this. So, no, they don't cherry-pick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

If you're the type who must obliterate the faintest signs of IR, no matter how briefly they show up, then it would probably be best for you and your family to get something else. On the other hand, if you're the type who gets involved in the story or the action that you're watching, then it will take more than a brief glimpse of IR to distract you.

Right on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

So you watched one day of Olympics (8-12 hours?), and then ran the pixel flipper for 9.5 hours to get rid of the NBC logo?
Michael

Seems like a pricey way of dealing with a minor/non-problem. Incidentally, we are watching *lots* of Olympics at the Rogo household. I don't see a hint of the NBC logo on my TV. I am using THX Bright Room almost exclusively.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gas0linE View Post

Can i ask about the pixel orbiter? I will be getting my vt50 soon. Should I have this on? What exactly does it do? Do i need to turn it on rigjt away even for the break in?

You need to ignore it; it's almost entirely useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempest261 View Post

Yeah I take back what I said. The NBC logo is definitely there. You have to put on a dark grey slide to see it. It's faint, but it's there, pixel orbiter or not. Can't see it in the scrolling bars, however.

Odd. I really cannot see it on mine at all. Possibly, I'm just watching less than you. Or my settings are different enough. Or our sets are different enough. But I cannot detect any evidence of an NBC logo on black or white backgrounds. Honestly, with how dark the black is, I'm really unclear how one could detect anything against a black background anyway, but perhaps that's another matter entirely.
post #5481 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Odd. I really cannot see it on mine at all. Possibly, I'm just watching less than you. Or my settings are different enough. Or our sets are different enough. But I cannot detect any evidence of an NBC logo on black or white backgrounds. Honestly, with how dark the black is, I'm really unclear how one could detect anything against a black background anyway, but perhaps that's another matter entirely.

Did you run a dark grey slide to hunt it down, to possibly see a faint image?

I can't believe that anyone would run a pixel flipper for that kind of "IR", let alone run it for 9 hours- that's not even IR. smh
post #5482 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

So you watched one day of Olympics (8-12 hours?), and then ran the pixel flipper for 9.5 hours to get rid of the NBC logo?
Michael

It's been a bit more stubborn than that. I ran an all-white slide (combats MgO sputtering apparently) and it seemed to help some more. It's going to take a bit more time to wipe out the logo (CNET's IR took 4 days). I'll keep you guys updated.
post #5483 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

You need to ignore it; it's almost entirely useless.

I'm starting to agree with this. Although, it does seem to "smear" the IR, vs. having sharp edges, so it doesn't hurt. I wish they'd let us adjust the degree to which it shifts, even if it has to shrink the picture. When my gf is in "NBC Olympics Mode" I'd crank that sucker to the max.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Odd. I really cannot see it on mine at all. Possibly, I'm just watching less than you. Or my settings are different enough. Or our sets are different enough. But I cannot detect any evidence of an NBC logo on black or white backgrounds. Honestly, with how dark the black is, I'm really unclear how one could detect anything against a black background anyway, but perhaps that's another matter entirely.

Yeah, it has been *all* that we've been watching for over a week, off and on. I think it's important to note that IR seems to have little to do with how many breaks you take where you turn off the TV- if the image is frequently the same each time you turn on the TV, IR will likely show up regardless. Even with all of the ads playing (no DVR here smile.gif).

Also, out of all of D-Nice's slides, it only shows up on two of them. Extreme black doesn't have it at all. Extreme white has a little, and a few steps down the greyscale shows it too. It doesn't show up whatsoever on any of the R, G, or B slides.
post #5484 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7th Angel View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

...I can easily tell that most of the IR complaints are from slide watchers and that should be disclosed when reporting IR so I can ignore the post. Just my 2 cents.

I can assure you my IR complaint is NOT from watching slides. I have seen it while watching content, as well as when running the Anti Image Retention scroll trying to wipe it. I wouldn't consider it being anal when it shows up, no matter how briefly, while watching content.

That is why I said "most" complaints, which is true. And a scolling bar is not regular content. But if you can see it in regular content, then I would be ticked off as well. That is not normal at all for this set IMO.

I am just glad I dont have IR or the need to throw slides up every day to look for non-issues. I watch far too much TV and I have no hint of IR in content. I either got a great panel or am not prone to seeing it. My receiver throws up a solid grey screen with a floating disc when playing music, and I dont have any there either. And I really expected to see something in that case. Sounds like defective panels or contrast on 90+ or vivid mode is being used to me.

If you guys want to take the advice to use slides on a daily basis, well thats your call. I could not imagine doing that past 500 hours. I would just go buy an LCD rather than live with paranoia.
post #5485 of 13486
Does the VT50 include the scrolling bar for IR in the software? I also have the WOW disc with the pixel Flipper. Which one works better for minor IR? My set arrives tomorrow! Can't wait, but all this talk of IR is starting to scare me. This will be my first plasma I ever owned.
post #5486 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

That is why I said "most" complaints, which is true. And a scolling bar is not regular content. But if you can see it in regular content, then I would be ticked off as well. That is not normal at all for this set IMO.
I am just glad I dont have IR or the need to throw slides up every day to look for non-issues. I watch far too much TV and I have no hint of IR in content. I either got a great panel or am not prone to seeing it. My receiver throws up a solid grey screen with a floating disc when playing music, and I dont have any there either. And I really expected to see something in that case. Sounds like defective panels or contrast on 90+ or vivid mode is being used to me.
If you guys want to take the advice to use slides on a daily basis, well thats your call. I could not imagine doing that past 500 hours. I would just go buy an LCD rather than live with paranoia.

+1
post #5487 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gas0linE View Post

Does the VT50 include the scrolling bar for IR? I also have the WOW disc with the pixel Flipper. Which one works better for minor IR? My set arrives tomorrow! Can't wait, but all this talk of IR is starting to scare me. This will be my first plasma I ever owned.

Relax and just be careful the first couple weeks. This thread I us full of witch hunts. Read all the reviews and you will find IR to be very rarely even discussed.

As tempest mentioned, he watched Olympics for the better part of a week, and was able to pick up a hint of IR that is already almost gone. That much of the sane logo is bound to leave something, but it is temporary, and very rarely even noticed with regular content. Now if you watched the Olympics with a brand new set for a week with anything brighter than thx cinema, be prepared for serious IR or even burn in. At the very least perform a proper 100 hour breakin. And you don't have to use clef, just be smart.
Edited by TopperMcFly - 8/8/12 at 5:51am
post #5488 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopperMcFly View Post

Relax and just be careful the first couple weeks. This thread I us full of witch hunts. Read all the reviews and you will find IR to be very rarely even discussed.

Thanks for the response. I definitely plan on breaking it in for the first 100 hours or so with nothing but full screen content without any static logo's. I will use mainly Disney/Pixar full screen blu ray's for most of it. I'm stoked to get this set.

Edit - I also plan on using THX Cinema Night mode right out of the box day 1, Which I hear is fine for the initial break in.
Edited by Gas0linE - 8/8/12 at 5:55am
post #5489 of 13486
Hi All,

I had my second VT50 for about a week now. My first one was a May 2012 build. This new one is a July 2012 build. It is perfect IMO. None of the issues I had with the first VT are present in this one. No IR whatsoever. If there is dithering in this set I cannot see it at all!!! This set is night and day compared to my first one. DSE was the main issue I had with the set. It was terrible. I no longer see DSE when watching directv. I do notice it when using 96hz mode on Blu-rays. It is still much less noticeable than the first VT I had. Switching to 60hz eliminates it completely! I am truly happy with this set now. The lesson I learned is to never buy early.
post #5490 of 13486
My set will be delivered this morning! I can't wait. Only a few more hours of floating blacks to endure.

As to the IR discussion, I don't have the VT50 as of yet but I've owned the VT25 for the better part of three years and I've never had an issue with IR. That's not to say I don't get IR - I most certainly do when I'm playing a game for an extended amount of time or watch something with a static image but a change of content or running the scrolling bar for 15 minutes every once in awhile completely eliminates any IR and I see nothing when playing actual content.

It's honestly been a complete non-issue to me with the VT25 and I would hope/imagine that is true of the VT50 as long as you're being careful early on (I stuck to full screen content almost exclusively outside of a 2:35:1 movie every once in awhile and nothing with static images like gaming for the first 100-200 hours of use). I didn't run any break-in slides either.
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