Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 247

Well, I got the 24p option to show, but the only choices to which to adjust it are 48 and 60Hz. There is no 96Hz option.

BTW, what does 3:2 pulldown do

It is consistent, but very strange.

I frame-stepped through it, and it has a 2:3 cadence. This is bizzare, in that no matter what the original rate of the high-speed camera, it should capture progressively and in digital, which could then just be shown at 60fps, giving the ultra-slow motion effect. A 2:3 cadence only exists because of having to fit 24fps into a 30fps medium while maintaining audio sync. Even an interlaced high-speed camera could just be de-interlaced with no frame duplication, as there is no need to maintain any "reference" rate.

Regardless, the brightness "strobing" that we are seeing happens in a 36 frame cycle from dark to dark.

Is this normal, or does anyone else see this effect ? :

When running the "Scrolling Bar", do you see black pixel trails to the right side of the WHITE area as the black rolls by ? I think technically they are black pixels that are not turning white fast enough as the are turns from black to white 1 step as it moves. They are black and they LOOK like trials of the black area.

Is this normal ? Or only this TV ? I'm getting a little nervous here, as that doesn't seem like something that should be normal, also I don't see how that would not effect picture quality in a movie if lets say per chance the movie was doing a similar thing for some reason.

Any help is appreciated -

My recommendation: Never run the scrolling bar. It serves no real purpose.

No, it's a very accurate statement.

HDMI is a digital signal. If you are not seeing any artifacts, you have all the RF rejection you need. This is not an analog signal. Every bit of marketing speak you have been duped by to believe you need some "higher grade" of cable is crap. As one of the lower posts below describes, any HDMI cable rated for "high speed" is sufficient to carry all HDMI signals.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/hdmi-1-4-cable.htm

Those are the facts. From a company that actually sells somewhat pricey cables.

Learn them.

This seems strange--audio affected by new HDTV?

I got a new subwoofer connected about a week or more ago because my old one crapped out. I just got a new 65VT50 it this past Saturday. I don't know how a TV would have this effect, but I swear my sound in my home theater system is different now--louder and more powerful.

At first, I thought somehow my new subwoofer had something to do with it, but I have had my subwoofer connected for over a week or more to my old HDTV that I upgraded. Other than the new subwoofer noticeably working, nothing else changed. When I connected my new Panny 65VT50 this past weekend, it seemed like many audio-related things changed: the sound is overall louder and more powerful; the bass is louder.

If a TV is nothing more than a monitor--mine is connected to an HDMI out straight from an Onkyo A/V receiver, and I didn't make any changes to my Onkyo receiver--then how could this change anything audio-related? I know I'm not imagining things, because the change is definitely noticeable.

Can this be possible? Any explanations?

You ran a new audio calibration? Unless your other display was the same size, you might have been forced to move your front speakers farther apart and also reposition your center speaker? If you haven't done so, run a new audio calibration to reflect the current positions of the speakers. And then fiddle with the settings to your preferences, if you feel necessary.

I ran a new audio calibration only insofar as making sure the subwoofer was connected like its old predecessor, which it was. Everything appeared to be the same.

Um, "differences in build quality" are actually another matter. If you're running a cable through the wall, you certainly want it last for decades and I'll leave it to CEDIA installers I trust to recommend a cable (although for runs up to 50 feet, I personally would trust Monoprice, I've never seen one "fail", etc.)

As for my original premise, Cnet has completely coincidentally weighed in again on this and agrees with me entirely:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57540275-221/still-more-reasons-why-all-hdmi-cable-are-the-same/

Incidentally, if the cable is not being run through a wall, rather than smear a particular vendor, here's what I'd say: Perhaps there is some really small failure rate of cables. Given that, I'd buy from vendors with (a) really good customer service and (b) really low prices. In most cases (a) will handle any issues. And in all cases (b) allows you to keep an extra lying around to test if, indeed, a cable has gone bad and also to replace one that has. Monoprice scores 10/10 on both (a) and (b). Blue Jeans -- another good vendor -- scores 10/10 on (a) but much lower on (b).

Yes, true, OTHER THAN possibly exposing a issue like this with the TV.

Oh, another thing, it helps you spot IR or BI, when that white area is scrolling by, it really exposes the faintest IR or BI. Way more than a still white frame. This is because it is moving and then goes to black, causing your eyes to not create false images or stuff. And making you realize if what you thought you saw is really there or not. I personally seen this at the store when I ran it on their display model.

Now whether or not it actually fixes IR, well IDK yet cause I haven't owned the TV long and haven't experienced IR yet. And I think I would use Pixel Flipper for that anyway cause it seems better just from a common sense tech level. IMO

In ANY CASE, my question was not whether or not to run it, my question was, is this trail normal for it, does anyone else get/see this ? Is it a normal anomaly for the scroller, or does my tv have pixel issues ?
Edited by JoelxD - 10/29/12 at 11:30am

This is not really the place to discuss cables, but having said that I'll throw in my advice anyway. Years ago I bought a heavy duty HDMI cable but it was so stiff it was loosening the connector in my A/V receiver. I now use inexpensive, soft and flexible Monoprice cables. My VT50 likes 'em!

My recommendation: Run the scrolling bar. It does help clean your screen. Just don't look for a quick fix. I will always run the scrolling bar before I do a calibration, the last thing you want before doing a calibration is IR in the middle of your screen or were ever you point your meter.

HDMI cable, For to day's HQ 3D TV's you will want a high speed cable. You can get the cheaper ($10) HDMI cable or get the more expensive Monster ($40) THX high speed cable, what ever gives you peace of mind. Just make sure you shop around for the high price HDMI cable, and don't buy a Monster HDMI from E-bay, you may get a knock off.

ss

That wasn't the question


Again, thanks for chiming in to help me guys, but as you can (hopefully) see from the above quotes of my original question, and other responses, the question is not whether or not to run the scroller, or if it helps IR or not... (please read post #7385 OR the first quote in this post) - The question is, does anyone else see black pixel trails on the scroller as the screen scrolls from black to the white area on the right side of the white area right where it is stepping from black to white.

This is rather serious for me, as I want to know if my screen has issues. But if this is a normal phenomenon, then cool. I would like some verification if at all possible.

Thanks

^^^^

My reply was not directed at your question, it was simply a alternative to not using the scrolling bar.

Now for your question, "black pixel trails on the scroller as the screen scrolls from black to the white area", No.

ss

Thanks so much for the answer and verifying this.

OH CRAP ! I was afraid this would be the answer. Looks like I'll perform a few more tests to be sure I see it happening elsewhere, and if so, take this TV back. Dang.

Just so I know, what is this issue called ? Does it have a name ? Basically, my guess is, it is when pixels can not change color fast enough ?

Is there any other recommended material I could use other than the scrolling bar to expose this same issue to see if indeed it is not isolated to the scrolling bar screen only ?

Thanks again for directing your answer to my question.

What you should be seeing when running the scrolling bar, when looking carefully, is the cyan colored pixels in front, and red trailing pixels. This is because red pixels don't charge/discharge as fast as the green and blue ones.

This is perfectly normal and shouldn't be a cause of concern. I've never really noticed it on regular content at normal viewing distances.

Let's agree to disagree here. This is kind of like the old joke about going to the doctor. "Doc, it hurts when I go like this". "So don't go like that." Except in this case, "this" and "that" are not useful motions, but pointless uses of electricity and navel gazing. Enjoy your TV or don't. But don't engage in activities designed to foster OCD.
Again, I'd argue you are missing the point. If you can only see this image retention when running some synthetic screen routine, who cares? "Honey, do I look fat in my high school prom dress?" "Of course not." (Always answer this way regardless of the truth.) "But, honey, when are you are ever going to where your prom dress again?". You can always make a problem, but in a world where you get a finite number of spins on the big blue marble, why are you doing this?

Whatever the "white bar" or the "pixel flipper" might or might not do, ordinary viewing of the TV would also do by its very nature. I find I enjoy regular programming, BluRays, games, etc. more than watching a white bar run across the screen. I find it pointless to send any money to PG&E (my utility) to run said white bar across the screen.

This is like recommending colon cleansing to healthy people.
Valid for a calibration. Not especially valid for normal viewing. Actually, worse than not especially valid. It promotes the invalid idea that running the scrolling bar should be part of regular usage of the TV, which is ludicrous.
You can shop cheap and unnecessarily expensive cables on the same page right here:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240

Please note that even the $3 cable is "high speed". And good enough.

Thanks for helping me here. So actually the only thing I see are black trails, and they are extremely noticeable from 30ft away. Actually from as far as you could go to still see the TV, you would notice this. BUT they go away about 2inches later. They are not uniform at all, and are totally random/alive like. Like real smoke trails or pixy dust trailing along. They even move like that within their own "trail". All black, no other colors, as they are from the black side of the bar thing (I imagine).

Well, without getting into a HUGE long story and psychology, I will leave it at this. You and I seem different. I could go into the details of this, and how I can see this by reading between the lines here, but I wont, as it is not important here. Just trust, we see life differently. I strongly believe in "Tin Foil Hats". But I will tell you this, even people who don't strive for perfection would notice this and it is NOT something I am fostering over, this is scary obvious. So I need to make sure this TV is up to standard specs before the 30 days are up. That is simple reason enough --- read below
- Because I can jump marbles and continue my road to perfection with another "cycle" of all new spins. What I achieved in the past "cycles" help me on the current one and future ones" I'm 808.

This is my point as well, maybe you are missing.... I did not say I do not see it in other content yet. I still am unsure (and I will keep you posted). Do I blatantly see it in other content now, no. I see it this way possibly no content I have used so far will show the issue. I would HATE to look at it like you in this situation and then have a bunch of friends over, 1 of whom I brag to about my TV being better than his, etc.. (you get the point) and then we HAPPEN to watch something that DOES expose it, if indeed it is a real issue. Example, what if this does it every time the screen goes from black to white in a fashion across the TV ? Ordinary viewing content could do that every so often for some reason. If I see this then, I would not be happen with my tv, even if I seen it only rarely. Why should I be the one that puts up with that if your TV does not do it ? All because you say it shouldn't matter cause a screen exercise that you don't like exposed it first ? I don't get your reasoning.

Also, if paying 2k for a TV, I'd like it to preform to SPEC, NOT to "just what my eyes can see", like you seem to live by. Again, we are different. But again, I stress that it is possible I will see this on normal content. Let me test this, and I also will take some pics and get back to everyone on this. ALSO if you think about it, if my tv does this, and yours does not, then I don't care if I see it on normal content or not, obviously my TV is not up to spec ! That is not acceptable. A big company should not get away with that, so no, I put on my tin foil hat and make them replace it on principle alone.

For the scrolling bar, your right. BUT for the Pixel Flipper, you are wrong sir. Most normal content you describe will not exercise every pixel to do every color AND make it change color so rapidly. Now, does that do any good ?? ha ha, who knows ? And I know what your take on it will be so I don't need to ask or hear it. BUT I want to point out your wrong. Normal tv viewing content will NOT do that in its very nature. You obviously do not know what the pixel flipper is.

To point out possible contradictions in your reasoning. Above you say if I don't see what I see in the Scrolling bar thing in normal viewing content than who cares ? Implying that then obviously if something doesn't do what it did somewhere else, then the 2 things MUST represent it differently. Therefore proving that according to you in that earlier statement that ordinary viewing content is indeed different than the scrolling bar and I should only worry about ordinary viewing content.

Later though, you tell me that whatever the scrolling bar does or doesn't do that viewing ordinary tv content will do the same by nature. This NOW is implying that they are indeed the same thing, same exercise on the tv same exposing of issues, same everything - etc.... So which is it ? In which if the later is indeed corect, than I am screwed cause it means this will do it on ordinary viewing content. Cause again, you said they are the same (that time).

For me, though I will do some more research to see if I can or can not see this issue on various content. I will also try to take some pictures of this so you guys can see it. But my iPhone wasn't doing it well, so I will go grab my better real actual camera.

Again dude, I appreciate the help,. and therefore do not want to come off rude, but my god man, give me a break. I see a real issue here and if your TV's don't do it, than why should I be satisfied with mine doing it ? Whether I notice it or not on ordinary viewing content. Do you own Panasonic or something and you don't want me to exchange it ?
Edited by JoelxD - 10/29/12 at 4:03pm

btw, I am just a little curious why you would think running the scrolling bar is relevant before calibrating?
Also if you ever do want to improve your PQ and take the time to learn and understand how to really do a ISF calibration right, beware you probably will get some IR after doing a full and exact calibration if you use a disc like AVSHD or GetGray for Gray and Color pattern windows.

ss

Could be that it just has a different output than your last TV. Different components have different outputs which is why AVRs give you the option to offset the volume across them.

Are you referring to the output from where its HDMI cable emanates, or the TV outputting audio, which it doesn't because of it being connected to an A/V receiver?

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1403635/official-panasonic-gt50-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/2700#post_22205675

Your VT50 might like this method better - it also takes all the stress off the HDMI ports:

I see that. I understand that.
Just to be clear, it's "scary obvious" when you're running the scrolling bar, right?

I'm reading...
Here's what I believe, and you will likely believe something different:

I'm confident if you go looking for it in other content, you will eventually find it. I think the people who wrap their head in tinfoil eventually find strong "evidence" of government mind-control waves and surveillance technology too. I'm not suggesting ignorance (for example, I am quite certain the government can and does read 100% of e-mail and can and does have access to all phone calls made in this country), but I'm suggesting that once you go looking for trouble you find it. There is, evidence, for example, that the mere act of testing for prostate cancer is a disaster. It causes diagnoses of the disease, which then gets treated. This seems obviously good, right? Well, it turns out that the prostate cancer won't kill most of those people but the treatment will make them miserable. And it will do so for however many decades they have on earth. So instead of looking, it's probably actually better to only even look when people become symptomatic, even if that means a larger portion of victims will die from the "treatable" form. The lesson here, is be careful looking for problems. You will not only find them; you will make them.
I'm paying to have my TV calibrated. I'd suggest you don't have a very good read on me at all. I'd further suggest that "performing to spec" is some weird myth. There are countless audiophiles who insist their equipment needs time to "break in", but multiple double-blind studies proves there is no such phenomenon. It's all in what they hear, not what comes out of the equipment.
Seems to me you could test this using a TV in a Best Buy, no?
And, again, you really need to stop telling me what I know, don't know, think, feel, etc. I know precisely what the pixel-flipper does. I also know what regular TV does. I also understand what "image retention" (quotes intentional to convey my sentiment that this phenomenon is overrated as to its import) is and how it happens. Over time, the effect of a random set of pixels is identical to the effect of the pixel flipper is identical to the effect of the scrolling bar. There is only one difference: The flipper/scrolling bar by their nature don't lead to any kind of image retention of their own. If you "just watch TV", you will remove any image retention caused by some other TV, but potentially not the very TV you are watching. This risk is tiny because unless you watch a lot of a channel with static logos, everything will come out in the wash soon enough. But if you want to go back to "zero", you might find that any random TV leaves you with a little something from that thing. (That said, my 20/20 vision cannot detect even a hint of image retention on my set from anything. And I tried your scrolling-bar test to see if that would "bring out the image retention" to my attention. Still nada.)
No, and again, you are wrong. There is no contradiction.

Case 1: If you see it only in the scrolling bar scenario, it may occur only when you run a giant white bar across the screen. That doesn't mean the scrolling bar does anything special to "image retention". It just means it's a very unusual image that mimics regular content in absolutely no way whatsoever. Just because it produces an artifact doesn't mean that any ordinary content will ever produce that artifact.

Case 2: The scrolling bar "removes" image retention better than "just watching TV". False. It does "remove" it somewhat faster in that it offers (a) absolutely no static images to become further "retained and (b) it uses a very bright image to "hit the pixels hard" which will in theory make the retention "removal" somewhat faster. (There, "removal" is in quotes because it's a misnomer.)
Again, you are just wrong here. There are special things about the scrolling bar that could cause it to "look funny". But the idea that those things will necessarily translate to anything else is another matter. The "image retention" removal equation is actually 100% unrelated to that question and your conflating the two doesn't make it related.
I would return the TV if I were you. An exchange will doubtless bring up either the same issue or a similar one.


I don't, but you do. I'm respecting your judgment as a calibrator.
Respect intended, my free time these days is spent writing, not learning arcana like ISFing. I am having a top-flight calibrator come to my home to do my calibration, hopefully this December. I really don't have the time to learn the method.

yes

I didn't change anything there, then. It remains untouched and in good, working order.

JoelxD: I don't see the problem you are seeing, and I'm very sensitive of motion artifacts.

I suggest watching as wide a variety of content as possible (content that you normally watch, not just test patterns). Realize that every TV will fail some test or not behave ideally. The question is, are you happy with the way the TV looks while you are watching stuff you watch the most, as well as stuff that you expect the TV to look its best. So for example, if 75% of your tv watching is sports, then it better looks good with sports. If you care most about picture quality when you are watching bluray, it better looks good with bluray.

IMHO, if you want the best image quality under ideal condition -- a pristine source like bluray and dark, light controlled room -- this tv is hard to beat. If you want something that looks very good in bright or dark room and on most content, where the source quality may not be all that great, then you may be happier with something else. I think, for example, that Samsung plasma handles hd cable tv better.

Btw, you said you bought this for your mom? If she's like my mom, then she tends to watch the same channels all day. I'd be more concerned if the set is prone to IR.

Should I set my htpc to output PC levels (0..255) and set the tv's hdmi range to non standard?

ETA: this tv has pretty decent speakers. I know almost everyone has a sound system, but it's nice to not have to use it just because you don't want tinny sound from your TV.
Edited by barth2k - 10/29/12 at 9:51pm

Most likely the TV affected your room acoustics. I've noticed mine causes a bass deadspot in front of the screen at certain distances.

Ah! THAT would make sense. I'm surprised I didn't remember that.

Imagine a plane flying overhead, monitoring 64,000 phone calls simultaneously, listening for key words.

And that was in the 1960's.

Buzz - former Marine Corps EA6A Intruder pilot. I know what I know....