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Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 247

post #7381 of 13486
This seems strange--audio affected by new HDTV?

I got a new subwoofer connected about a week or more ago because my old one crapped out. I just got a new 65VT50 it this past Saturday. I don't know how a TV would have this effect, but I swear my sound in my home theater system is different now--louder and more powerful.

At first, I thought somehow my new subwoofer had something to do with it, but I have had my subwoofer connected for over a week or more to my old HDTV that I upgraded. Other than the new subwoofer noticeably working, nothing else changed. When I connected my new Panny 65VT50 this past weekend, it seemed like many audio-related things changed: the sound is overall louder and more powerful; the bass is louder.

If a TV is nothing more than a monitor--mine is connected to an HDMI out straight from an Onkyo A/V receiver, and I didn't make any changes to my Onkyo receiver--then how could this change anything audio-related? I know I'm not imagining things, because the change is definitely noticeable.

Can this be possible? Any explanations?
post #7382 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Vader View Post

This seems strange--audio affected by new HDTV?
I got a new subwoofer connected about a week or more ago because my old one crapped out. I just got a new 65VT50 it this past Saturday. I don't know how a TV would have this effect, but I swear my sound in my home theater system is different now--louder and more powerful.
At first, I thought somehow my new subwoofer had something to do with it, but I have had my subwoofer connected for over a week or more to my old HDTV that I upgraded. Other than the new subwoofer noticeably working, nothing else changed. When I connected my new Panny 65VT50 this past weekend, it seemed like many audio-related things changed: the sound is overall louder and more powerful; the bass is louder.
If a TV is nothing more than a monitor--mine is connected to an HDMI out straight from an Onkyo A/V receiver, and I didn't make any changes to my Onkyo receiver--then how could this change anything audio-related? I know I'm not imagining things, because the change is definitely noticeable.
Can this be possible? Any explanations?

You ran a new audio calibration? Unless your other display was the same size, you might have been forced to move your front speakers farther apart and also reposition your center speaker? If you haven't done so, run a new audio calibration to reflect the current positions of the speakers. And then fiddle with the settings to your preferences, if you feel necessary.
post #7383 of 13486
I ran a new audio calibration only insofar as making sure the subwoofer was connected like its old predecessor, which it was. Everything appeared to be the same.
post #7384 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by facesnorth View Post

I think this is a bit over-zealous. Yes, digital is digital. But there are certainly differences in build quality. As well as different applications with regards to signal amplification. I'm going to stick to my original statement here that they are mostly the same. I'm in the business, and have used many cables. Monoprice cables are great for the money, but I have had several fail on me, and the failure rate for me has been higher than when using other cables. I would never again run a long monoprice cable through a wall. But for 3-12' cables, or anything easily changeable such as the setup that Summit 1 likely has, certainly I would suggest starting with one.

Um, "differences in build quality" are actually another matter. If you're running a cable through the wall, you certainly want it last for decades and I'll leave it to CEDIA installers I trust to recommend a cable (although for runs up to 50 feet, I personally would trust Monoprice, I've never seen one "fail", etc.)

As for my original premise, Cnet has completely coincidentally weighed in again on this and agrees with me entirely:

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57540275-221/still-more-reasons-why-all-hdmi-cable-are-the-same/

Incidentally, if the cable is not being run through a wall, rather than smear a particular vendor, here's what I'd say: Perhaps there is some really small failure rate of cables. Given that, I'd buy from vendors with (a) really good customer service and (b) really low prices. In most cases (a) will handle any issues. And in all cases (b) allows you to keep an extra lying around to test if, indeed, a cable has gone bad and also to replace one that has. Monoprice scores 10/10 on both (a) and (b). Blue Jeans -- another good vendor -- scores 10/10 on (a) but much lower on (b).
post #7385 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

My recommendation: Never run the scrolling bar. It serves no real purpose.
Yes, true, OTHER THAN possibly exposing a issue like this with the TV.

Oh, another thing, it helps you spot IR or BI, when that white area is scrolling by, it really exposes the faintest IR or BI. Way more than a still white frame. This is because it is moving and then goes to black, causing your eyes to not create false images or stuff. And making you realize if what you thought you saw is really there or not. I personally seen this at the store when I ran it on their display model.

Now whether or not it actually fixes IR, well IDK yet cause I haven't owned the TV long and haven't experienced IR yet. And I think I would use Pixel Flipper for that anyway cause it seems better just from a common sense tech level. IMO

In ANY CASE, my question was not whether or not to run it, my question was, is this trail normal for it, does anyone else get/see this ? Is it a normal anomaly for the scroller, or does my tv have pixel issues ?
Edited by JoelxD - 10/29/12 at 11:30am
post #7386 of 13486
This is not really the place to discuss cables, but having said that I'll throw in my advice anyway. Years ago I bought a heavy duty HDMI cable but it was so stiff it was loosening the connector in my A/V receiver. I now use inexpensive, soft and flexible Monoprice cables. My VT50 likes 'em!
post #7387 of 13486
My recommendation: Run the scrolling bar. It does help clean your screen. Just don't look for a quick fix. I will always run the scrolling bar before I do a calibration, the last thing you want before doing a calibration is IR in the middle of your screen or were ever you point your meter.

HDMI cable, For to day's HQ 3D TV's you will want a high speed cable. You can get the cheaper ($10) HDMI cable or get the more expensive Monster ($40) THX high speed cable, what ever gives you peace of mind. Just make sure you shop around for the high price HDMI cable, and don't buy a Monster HDMI from E-bay, you may get a knock off.

ss
post #7388 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Is this normal, or does anyone else see this effect ? :

When running the "Scrolling Bar", do you see black pixel trails to the right side of the WHITE area as the black rolls by ? I think technically they are black pixels that are not turning white fast enough as the are turns from black to white 1 step as it moves. They are black and they LOOK like trials of the black area.

Is this normal ? Or only this TV ? I'm getting a little nervous here, as that doesn't seem like something that should be normal, also I don't see how that would not effect picture quality in a movie if lets say per chance the movie was doing a similar thing for some reason.

Any help is appreciated -

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

My recommendation: Never run the scrolling bar. It serves no real purpose.
That wasn't the question
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

In ANY CASE, my question was not whether or not to run it, my question was, is this trail normal for it, does anyone else get/see this ? Is it a normal anomaly for the scroller, or does my tv have pixel issues ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

My recommendation: Run the scrolling bar. It does help clean your screen. Just don't look for a quick fix. I will always run the scrolling bar before I do a calibration, the last thing you want before doing a calibration is IR in the middle of your screen or were ever you point your meter.

Again, thanks for chiming in to help me guys, but as you can (hopefully) see from the above quotes of my original question, and other responses, the question is not whether or not to run the scroller, or if it helps IR or not... (please read post #7385 OR the first quote in this post) - The question is, does anyone else see black pixel trails on the scroller as the screen scrolls from black to the white area on the right side of the white area right where it is stepping from black to white.

This is rather serious for me, as I want to know if my screen has issues. But if this is a normal phenomenon, then cool. I would like some verification if at all possible.

Thanks
post #7389 of 13486
^^^^

My reply was not directed at your question, it was simply a alternative to not using the scrolling bar.

Now for your question, "black pixel trails on the scroller as the screen scrolls from black to the white area", No.

ss
post #7390 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

^^^^

My reply was not directed at your question, it was simply a alternative to not using the scrolling bar.

Now for your question, "black pixel trails on the scroller as the screen scrolls from black to the white area", No.

ss

Thanks so much for the answer and verifying this.

OH CRAP ! eek.gifmad.gif I was afraid this would be the answer. Looks like I'll perform a few more tests to be sure I see it happening elsewhere, and if so, take this TV back. Dang.

Just so I know, what is this issue called ? Does it have a name ? Basically, my guess is, it is when pixels can not change color fast enough ?

Is there any other recommended material I could use other than the scrolling bar to expose this same issue to see if indeed it is not isolated to the scrolling bar screen only ?

Thanks again for directing your answer to my question.
post #7391 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Thanks so much for the answer and verifying this.
OH CRAP ! eek.gifmad.gif I was afraid this would be the answer. Looks like I'll perform a few more tests to be sure I see it happening elsewhere, and if so, take this TV back. Dang.
Just so I know, what is this issue called ? Does it have a name ? Basically, my guess is, it is when pixels can not change color fast enough ?
Is there any other recommended material I could use other than the scrolling bar to expose this same issue to see if indeed it is not isolated to the scrolling bar screen only ?
Thanks again for directing your answer to my question.

What you should be seeing when running the scrolling bar, when looking carefully, is the cyan colored pixels in front, and red trailing pixels. This is because red pixels don't charge/discharge as fast as the green and blue ones.

This is perfectly normal and shouldn't be a cause of concern. I've never really noticed it on regular content at normal viewing distances.
post #7392 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Yes, true, OTHER THAN possibly exposing a issue like this with the TV.

Let's agree to disagree here. This is kind of like the old joke about going to the doctor. "Doc, it hurts when I go like this". "So don't go like that." Except in this case, "this" and "that" are not useful motions, but pointless uses of electricity and navel gazing. Enjoy your TV or don't. But don't engage in activities designed to foster OCD.
Quote:
Oh, another thing, it helps you spot IR or BI, when that white area is scrolling by, it really exposes the faintest IR or BI.

Again, I'd argue you are missing the point. If you can only see this image retention when running some synthetic screen routine, who cares? "Honey, do I look fat in my high school prom dress?" "Of course not." (Always answer this way regardless of the truth.) "But, honey, when are you are ever going to where your prom dress again?". You can always make a problem, but in a world where you get a finite number of spins on the big blue marble, why are you doing this?
Quote:
Now whether or not it actually fixes IR, well IDK yet cause I haven't owned the TV long and haven't experienced IR yet. And I think I would use Pixel Flipper for that anyway cause it seems better just from a common sense tech level. IMO
In ANY CASE, my question was not whether or not to run it, my question was, is this trail normal for it, does anyone else get/see this ? Is it a normal anomaly for the scroller, or does my tv have pixel issues ?

Whatever the "white bar" or the "pixel flipper" might or might not do, ordinary viewing of the TV would also do by its very nature. I find I enjoy regular programming, BluRays, games, etc. more than watching a white bar run across the screen. I find it pointless to send any money to PG&E (my utility) to run said white bar across the screen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

My recommendation: Run the scrolling bar. It does help clean your screen.

This is like recommending colon cleansing to healthy people.
Quote:
I will always run the scrolling bar before I do a calibration, the last thing you want before doing a calibration is IR in the middle of your screen or were ever you point your meter.

Valid for a calibration. Not especially valid for normal viewing. Actually, worse than not especially valid. It promotes the invalid idea that running the scrolling bar should be part of regular usage of the TV, which is ludicrous.
Quote:
HDMI cable, For to day's HQ 3D TV's you will want a high speed cable. You can get the cheaper ($10) HDMI cable or get the more expensive Monster ($40) THX high speed cable, what ever gives you peace of mind. Just make sure you shop around for the high price HDMI cable, and don't buy a Monster HDMI from E-bay, you may get a knock off.
ss

You can shop cheap and unnecessarily expensive cables on the same page right here:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240

Please note that even the $3 cable is "high speed". And good enough.
post #7393 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbooga View Post

What you should be seeing when running the scrolling bar, when looking carefully, is the cyan colored pixels in front, and red trailing pixels. This is because red pixels don't charge/discharge as fast as the green and blue ones.

This is perfectly normal and shouldn't be a cause of concern. I've never really noticed it on regular content at normal viewing distances.

Thanks for helping me here. So actually the only thing I see are black trails, and they are extremely noticeable from 30ft away. Actually from as far as you could go to still see the TV, you would notice this. BUT they go away about 2inches later. They are not uniform at all, and are totally random/alive like. Like real smoke trails or pixy dust trailing along. They even move like that within their own "trail". All black, no other colors, as they are from the black side of the bar thing (I imagine).
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Let's agree to disagree here. This is kind of like the old joke about going to the doctor. "Doc, it hurts when I go like this". "So don't go like that." Except in this case, "this" and "that" are not useful motions, but pointless uses of electricity and navel gazing. Enjoy your TV or don't. But don't engage in activities designed to foster OCD.

Well, without getting into a HUGE long story and psychology, I will leave it at this. You and I seem different. I could go into the details of this, and how I can see this by reading between the lines here, but I wont, as it is not important here. Just trust, we see life differently. I strongly believe in "Tin Foil Hats". But I will tell you this, even people who don't strive for perfection would notice this and it is NOT something I am fostering over, this is scary obvious. So I need to make sure this TV is up to standard specs before the 30 days are up. That is simple reason enough --- read below
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Again, I'd argue you are missing the point. If you can only see this image retention when running some synthetic screen routine, who cares? "Honey, do I look fat in my high school prom dress?" "Of course not." (Always answer this way regardless of the truth.) "But, honey, when are you are ever going to where your prom dress again?". You can always make a problem, but in a world where you get a finite number of spins on the big blue marble, why are you doing this?
- Because I can jump marbles and continue my road to perfection with another "cycle" of all new spins. What I achieved in the past "cycles" help me on the current one and future ones" I'm 808.

This is my point as well, maybe you are missing.... I did not say I do not see it in other content yet. I still am unsure (and I will keep you posted). Do I blatantly see it in other content now, no. I see it this way possibly no content I have used so far will show the issue. I would HATE to look at it like you in this situation and then have a bunch of friends over, 1 of whom I brag to about my TV being better than his, etc.. (you get the point) and then we HAPPEN to watch something that DOES expose it, if indeed it is a real issue. Example, what if this does it every time the screen goes from black to white in a fashion across the TV ? Ordinary viewing content could do that every so often for some reason. If I see this then, I would not be happen with my tv, even if I seen it only rarely. Why should I be the one that puts up with that if your TV does not do it ? All because you say it shouldn't matter cause a screen exercise that you don't like exposed it first ? I don't get your reasoning.

Also, if paying 2k for a TV, I'd like it to preform to SPEC, NOT to "just what my eyes can see", like you seem to live by. Again, we are different. But again, I stress that it is possible I will see this on normal content. Let me test this, and I also will take some pics and get back to everyone on this. ALSO if you think about it, if my tv does this, and yours does not, then I don't care if I see it on normal content or not, obviously my TV is not up to spec ! That is not acceptable. A big company should not get away with that, so no, I put on my tin foil hat and make them replace it on principle alone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post


Whatever the "white bar" or the "pixel flipper" might or might not do, ordinary viewing of the TV would also do by its very nature. I find I enjoy regular programming, BluRays, games, etc. more than watching a white bar run across the screen. I find it pointless to send any money to PG&E (my utility) to run said white bar across the screen.

For the scrolling bar, your right. BUT for the Pixel Flipper, you are wrong sir. Most normal content you describe will not exercise every pixel to do every color AND make it change color so rapidly. Now, does that do any good ?? ha ha, who knows ? And I know what your take on it will be so I don't need to ask or hear it. BUT I want to point out your wrong. Normal tv viewing content will NOT do that in its very nature. You obviously do not know what the pixel flipper is.

To point out possible contradictions in your reasoning. Above you say if I don't see what I see in the Scrolling bar thing in normal viewing content than who cares ? Implying that then obviously if something doesn't do what it did somewhere else, then the 2 things MUST represent it differently. Therefore proving that according to you in that earlier statement that ordinary viewing content is indeed different than the scrolling bar and I should only worry about ordinary viewing content.

Later though, you tell me that whatever the scrolling bar does or doesn't do that viewing ordinary tv content will do the same by nature. This NOW is implying that they are indeed the same thing, same exercise on the tv same exposing of issues, same everything - etc.... So which is it ? In which if the later is indeed corect, than I am screwed cause it means this will do it on ordinary viewing content. Cause again, you said they are the same (that time).

For me, though I will do some more research to see if I can or can not see this issue on various content. I will also try to take some pictures of this so you guys can see it. But my iPhone wasn't doing it well, so I will go grab my better real actual camera.

Again dude, I appreciate the help,. and therefore do not want to come off rude, but my god man, give me a break. I see a real issue here and if your TV's don't do it, than why should I be satisfied with mine doing it ? Whether I notice it or not on ordinary viewing content. Do you own Panasonic or something and you don't want me to exchange it ?
Edited by JoelxD - 10/29/12 at 4:03pm
post #7394 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

This is like recommending colon cleansing to healthy people.
Quote:
What are you talking about, that statement is ludicrous. You do understand we are talking about consumer grade Plasma TV's, not the human body
Valid for a calibration. Not especially valid for normal viewing. Actually, worse than not especially valid. It promotes the invalid idea that running the scrolling bar should be part of regular usage of the TV, which is ludicrous.
Quote:
And you telling folks IR will not happen if they do as you say or because you have never seen IR on you TV. I guess because you said it then that will not promote the invalid idea that IR is not relevant. Is this how you think ?
You can shop cheap and unnecessarily expensive cables on the same page right here:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10240
Please note that even the $3 cable is "high speed". And good enough.
Quote:
That's great, then you buy them, I will pass
.


btw, I am just a little curious why you would think running the scrolling bar is relevant before calibrating?
Also if you ever do want to improve your PQ and take the time to learn and understand how to really do a ISF calibration right, beware you probably will get some IR after doing a full and exact calibration if you use a disc like AVSHD or GetGray for Gray and Color pattern windows. wink.gif

ss
post #7395 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Vader View Post

This seems strange--audio affected by new HDTV?
I got a new subwoofer connected about a week or more ago because my old one crapped out. I just got a new 65VT50 it this past Saturday. I don't know how a TV would have this effect, but I swear my sound in my home theater system is different now--louder and more powerful.
At first, I thought somehow my new subwoofer had something to do with it, but I have had my subwoofer connected for over a week or more to my old HDTV that I upgraded. Other than the new subwoofer noticeably working, nothing else changed. When I connected my new Panny 65VT50 this past weekend, it seemed like many audio-related things changed: the sound is overall louder and more powerful; the bass is louder.
If a TV is nothing more than a monitor--mine is connected to an HDMI out straight from an Onkyo A/V receiver, and I didn't make any changes to my Onkyo receiver--then how could this change anything audio-related? I know I'm not imagining things, because the change is definitely noticeable.
Can this be possible? Any explanations?
Could be that it just has a different output than your last TV. Different components have different outputs which is why AVRs give you the option to offset the volume across them.
post #7396 of 13486
Are you referring to the output from where its HDMI cable emanates, or the TV outputting audio, which it doesn't because of it being connected to an A/V receiver?
post #7397 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by earthbound View Post

This is not really the place to discuss cables, but having said that I'll throw in my advice anyway. Years ago I bought a heavy duty HDMI cable but it was so stiff it was loosening the connector in my A/V receiver. I now use inexpensive, soft and flexible Monoprice cables. My VT50 likes 'em!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1403635/official-panasonic-gt50-series-discussion-thread-no-street-price-talk/2700#post_22205675

Your VT50 might like this method better - it also takes all the stress off the HDMI ports:

900x900px-LL-f9440654_IMG_4884.jpeg
post #7398 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Well, without getting into a HUGE long story and psychology, I will leave it at this. You and I seem different. I could go into the details of this, and how I can see this by reading between the lines here, but I wont, as it is not important here. Just trust, we see life differently. I strongly believe in "Tin Foil Hats".

I see that. I understand that.
Quote:
But I will tell you this, even people who don't strive for perfection would notice this and it is NOT something I am fostering over, this is scary obvious.

Just to be clear, it's "scary obvious" when you're running the scrolling bar, right?
Quote:
So I need to make sure this TV is up to standard specs before the 30 days are up. That is simple reason enough --- read below

I'm reading...
Quote:
- Because I can jump marbles and continue my road to perfection with another "cycle" of all new spins. What I achieved in the past "cycles" help me on the current one and future ones" I'm 808.
This is my point as well, maybe you are missing.... I did not say I do not see it in other content yet. I still am unsure (and I will keep you posted). Do I blatantly see it in other content now, no. I see it this way possibly no content I have used so far will show the issue. I would HATE to look at it like you in this situation and then have a bunch of friends over, 1 of whom I brag to about my TV being better than his, etc.. (you get the point) and then we HAPPEN to watch something that DOES expose it, if indeed it is a real issue. Example, what if this does it every time the screen goes from black to white in a fashion across the TV ? Ordinary viewing content could do that every so often for some reason. If I see this then, I would not be happen with my tv, even if I seen it only rarely. Why should I be the one that puts up with that if your TV does not do it ? All because you say it shouldn't matter cause a screen exercise that you don't like exposed it first ? I don't get your reasoning.

Here's what I believe, and you will likely believe something different:

I'm confident if you go looking for it in other content, you will eventually find it. I think the people who wrap their head in tinfoil eventually find strong "evidence" of government mind-control waves and surveillance technology too. I'm not suggesting ignorance (for example, I am quite certain the government can and does read 100% of e-mail and can and does have access to all phone calls made in this country), but I'm suggesting that once you go looking for trouble you find it. There is, evidence, for example, that the mere act of testing for prostate cancer is a disaster. It causes diagnoses of the disease, which then gets treated. This seems obviously good, right? Well, it turns out that the prostate cancer won't kill most of those people but the treatment will make them miserable. And it will do so for however many decades they have on earth. So instead of looking, it's probably actually better to only even look when people become symptomatic, even if that means a larger portion of victims will die from the "treatable" form. The lesson here, is be careful looking for problems. You will not only find them; you will make them.
Quote:
Also, if paying 2k for a TV, I'd like it to preform to SPEC, NOT to "just what my eyes can see", like you seem to live by. Again, we are different.

I'm paying to have my TV calibrated. I'd suggest you don't have a very good read on me at all. I'd further suggest that "performing to spec" is some weird myth. There are countless audiophiles who insist their equipment needs time to "break in", but multiple double-blind studies proves there is no such phenomenon. It's all in what they hear, not what comes out of the equipment.
Quote:
But again, I stress that it is possible I will see this on normal content. Let me test this, and I also will take some pics and get back to everyone on this. ALSO if you think about it, if my tv does this, and yours does not, then I don't care if I see it on normal content or not, obviously my TV is not up to spec ! That is not acceptable. A big company should not get away with that, so no, I put on my tin foil hat and make them replace it on principle alone.

Seems to me you could test this using a TV in a Best Buy, no?
Quote:
For the scrolling bar, your right. BUT for the Pixel Flipper, you are wrong sir. Most normal content you describe will not exercise every pixel to do every color AND make it change color so rapidly. Now, does that do any good ?? ha ha, who knows ? And I know what your take on it will be so I don't need to ask or hear it. BUT I want to point out your wrong. Normal tv viewing content will NOT do that in its very nature. You obviously do not know what the pixel flipper is.

And, again, you really need to stop telling me what I know, don't know, think, feel, etc. I know precisely what the pixel-flipper does. I also know what regular TV does. I also understand what "image retention" (quotes intentional to convey my sentiment that this phenomenon is overrated as to its import) is and how it happens. Over time, the effect of a random set of pixels is identical to the effect of the pixel flipper is identical to the effect of the scrolling bar. There is only one difference: The flipper/scrolling bar by their nature don't lead to any kind of image retention of their own. If you "just watch TV", you will remove any image retention caused by some other TV, but potentially not the very TV you are watching. This risk is tiny because unless you watch a lot of a channel with static logos, everything will come out in the wash soon enough. But if you want to go back to "zero", you might find that any random TV leaves you with a little something from that thing. (That said, my 20/20 vision cannot detect even a hint of image retention on my set from anything. And I tried your scrolling-bar test to see if that would "bring out the image retention" to my attention. Still nada.)
Quote:
To point out possible contradictions in your reasoning. Above you say if I don't see what I see in the Scrolling bar thing in normal viewing content than who cares ? Implying that then obviously if something doesn't do what it did somewhere else, then the 2 things MUST represent it differently. Therefore proving that according to you in that earlier statement that ordinary viewing content is indeed different than the scrolling bar and I should only worry about ordinary viewing content.

No, and again, you are wrong. There is no contradiction.

Case 1: If you see it only in the scrolling bar scenario, it may occur only when you run a giant white bar across the screen. That doesn't mean the scrolling bar does anything special to "image retention". It just means it's a very unusual image that mimics regular content in absolutely no way whatsoever. Just because it produces an artifact doesn't mean that any ordinary content will ever produce that artifact.

Case 2: The scrolling bar "removes" image retention better than "just watching TV". False. It does "remove" it somewhat faster in that it offers (a) absolutely no static images to become further "retained and (b) it uses a very bright image to "hit the pixels hard" which will in theory make the retention "removal" somewhat faster. (There, "removal" is in quotes because it's a misnomer.)
Quote:
Later though, you tell me that whatever the scrolling bar does or doesn't do that viewing ordinary tv content will do the same by nature. This NOW is implying that they are indeed the same thing, same exercise on the tv same exposing of issues, same everything - etc.... So which is it ? In which if the later is indeed corect, than I am screwed cause it means this will do it on ordinary viewing content. Cause again, you said they are the same (that time).

Again, you are just wrong here. There are special things about the scrolling bar that could cause it to "look funny". But the idea that those things will necessarily translate to anything else is another matter. The "image retention" removal equation is actually 100% unrelated to that question and your conflating the two doesn't make it related.
Quote:
For me, though I will do some more research to see if I can or can not see this issue on various content. I will also try to take some pictures of this so you guys can see it. But my iPhone wasn't doing it well, so I will go grab my better real actual camera.
Again dude, I appreciate the help,. and therefore do not want to come off rude, but my god man, give me a break. I see a real issue here and if your TV's don't do it, than why should I be satisfied with mine doing it ? Whether I notice it or not on ordinary viewing content. Do you own Panasonic or something and you don't want me to exchange it ?

I would return the TV if I were you. An exchange will doubtless bring up either the same issue or a similar one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sillysally View Post

btw, I am just a little curious why you would think running the scrolling bar is relevant before calibrating?

I don't, but you do. I'm respecting your judgment as a calibrator.
Quote:
Also if you ever do want to improve your PQ and take the time to learn and understand how to really do a ISF calibration right, beware you probably will get some IR after doing a full and exact calibration if you use a disc like AVSHD or GetGray for Gray and Color pattern windows. wink.gif
ss

Respect intended, my free time these days is spent writing, not learning arcana like ISFing. I am having a top-flight calibrator come to my home to do my calibration, hopefully this December. I really don't have the time to learn the method.
post #7399 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Vader View Post

Are you referring to the output from where its HDMI cable emanates,
yes
post #7400 of 13486
I didn't change anything there, then. It remains untouched and in good, working order.
post #7401 of 13486
JoelxD: I don't see the problem you are seeing, and I'm very sensitive of motion artifacts.

I suggest watching as wide a variety of content as possible (content that you normally watch, not just test patterns). Realize that every TV will fail some test or not behave ideally. The question is, are you happy with the way the TV looks while you are watching stuff you watch the most, as well as stuff that you expect the TV to look its best. So for example, if 75% of your tv watching is sports, then it better looks good with sports. If you care most about picture quality when you are watching bluray, it better looks good with bluray.

IMHO, if you want the best image quality under ideal condition -- a pristine source like bluray and dark, light controlled room -- this tv is hard to beat. If you want something that looks very good in bright or dark room and on most content, where the source quality may not be all that great, then you may be happier with something else. I think, for example, that Samsung plasma handles hd cable tv better.

Btw, you said you bought this for your mom? If she's like my mom, then she tends to watch the same channels all day. I'd be more concerned if the set is prone to IR.
post #7402 of 13486
Should I set my htpc to output PC levels (0..255) and set the tv's hdmi range to non standard?

ETA: this tv has pretty decent speakers. I know almost everyone has a sound system, but it's nice to not have to use it just because you don't want tinny sound from your TV.
Edited by barth2k - 10/29/12 at 9:51pm
post #7403 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Vader View Post

This seems strange--audio affected by new HDTV?
I got a new subwoofer connected about a week or more ago because my old one crapped out. I just got a new 65VT50 it this past Saturday. I don't know how a TV would have this effect, but I swear my sound in my home theater system is different now--louder and more powerful.
At first, I thought somehow my new subwoofer had something to do with it, but I have had my subwoofer connected for over a week or more to my old HDTV that I upgraded. Other than the new subwoofer noticeably working, nothing else changed. When I connected my new Panny 65VT50 this past weekend, it seemed like many audio-related things changed: the sound is overall louder and more powerful; the bass is louder.
If a TV is nothing more than a monitor--mine is connected to an HDMI out straight from an Onkyo A/V receiver, and I didn't make any changes to my Onkyo receiver--then how could this change anything audio-related? I know I'm not imagining things, because the change is definitely noticeable.
Can this be possible? Any explanations?

Most likely the TV affected your room acoustics. I've noticed mine causes a bass deadspot in front of the screen at certain distances.
post #7404 of 13486
Ah! THAT would make sense. I'm surprised I didn't remember that.
post #7405 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I am quite certain the government can and does read 100% of e-mail and can and does have access to all phone calls made in this country

Imagine a plane flying overhead, monitoring 64,000 phone calls simultaneously, listening for key words.

And that was in the 1960's.

Buzz - former Marine Corps EA6A Intruder pilot. I know what I know....
post #7406 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Imagine a plane flying overhead, monitoring 64,000 phone calls simultaneously, listening for key words.
And that was in the 1960's.
Buzz - former Marine Corps EA6A Intruder pilot. I know what I know....

My father went to grad school with a "radical" in the 1960s. Our phone was tapped so hamfistedly, you could hear the clicking as they "picked up" when we did.

Technology has come a long way, for better and worse. smile.gif
post #7407 of 13486
GOT PICS, WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK THIS IS ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by superbooga View Post

What you should be seeing when running the scrolling bar, when looking carefully, is the cyan colored pixels in front, and red trailing pixels. This is because red pixels don't charge/discharge as fast as the green and blue ones.

This is perfectly normal and shouldn't be a cause of concern. I've never really noticed it on regular content at normal viewing distances.

Ok, I was mistaken when I said they were black.... as they totally look black when looking at them in real life. But I took pictures of them (see at bottom of post) and now I see they are indeed colored, as maybe your saying they should be. Sorry for the misinformation, but they really do look black, till I took the pictures and looked at the pictures - lol.

Please see attached pics and let me know if this is what you see too, and if this is normal. THOUGH, others are saying they don't see any type of trails at all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

~ see original Post #7405 for full content ~
Rogo, you are golden, and I highly look forward to your posts now. Your very entertaining and you make this place more interesting for sure. Thank you for your input, please know, even if we disagree on something, I respect and value your help and input.

All jokes aside though, after seeing the pics, do you also see this when running your scroller ? And/or what do you think ? Any help appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

JoelxD: I don't see the problem you are seeing, and I'm very sensitive of motion artifacts.

I suggest watching as wide a variety of content as possible (content that you normally watch, not just test patterns). Realize that every TV will fail some test or not behave ideally. The question is, are you happy with the way the TV looks while you are watching stuff you watch the most, as well as stuff that you expect the TV to look its best. So for example, if 75% of your tv watching is sports, then it better looks good with sports. If you care most about picture quality when you are watching bluray, it better looks good with bluray.

IMHO, if you want the best image quality under ideal condition -- a pristine source like bluray and dark, light controlled room -- this tv is hard to beat. If you want something that looks very good in bright or dark room and on most content, where the source quality may not be all that great, then you may be happier with something else. I think, for example, that Samsung plasma handles hd cable tv better.

Btw, you said you bought this for your mom? If she's like my mom, then she tends to watch the same channels all day. I'd be more concerned if the set is prone to IR.

barth2k, thank you again for always helping me. I do not see this in any normal content yet, so - so far so good. And also, please read the above reply to superbooga, in the fact that I now see the trails as colored pixels, not just black. He says this is normal. Do you see this phenomenon on your TV running the scroller as well if you look close ? If so, I am happy and done panicking, if not, panic still persists - ha ! I have pics at the bottom of this post, please look at them and tell me what you think.

Yes, you are correct (and thanks for remembering man !) this is my moms tv in her place. I bought the XBR950, I bought her this VT50. Both TV's same day, mine is at my house, hers is at her house. But I am the one setting up all her stuff, putting together her new stand, mounting the TV, installing the HTS, wiring, etc.. I also am breaking in the TV for quicker calibration abilities. So have been running the slides you gave me so far for 6 days straight with small breaks for the Pixel Flipper, some movie watching, and a few hours being off to rest here and there.

I just want her to have the perfect TV for her liking. She chose the VT50 cause she felt it was easier on the eyes and looked slightly better for movies. I agreed.

Pics of Trails when running the Scroller (CLICK ON THEM FOR FULL SIZE IMAGE):




Edited by JoelxD - 10/30/12 at 2:03pm
post #7408 of 13486
JoelxD: as the white bar moves from left to right, the leading edge has a bit of cyan to it, the trailing edge has more pronounced magenta hue.

I don't have a camera, but if I take a closeup, I wouldn't be surprised if it looks like yours.

---

Anyway, the tech came out about my 65vt50 noise. He took off the panel, tightened some screws on some boards inside. Didn't make any difference.

He said he had planned on replacing the screws with a new type, but my set already had the new type, so he only tightened them.

When he had the back cover off and powered it on, the noise was actually much better. I thought hmm, maybe that fixed it! But no, when he put the cover back on, it was the same.

He said the noise is normal for this set. Nothing more he can do. If I'm dissatisfied, I need to take it up with Panny or the dealer.

I think it may be the fans I'm hearing. There are two 80 or 90mm low profile fans on upper left and right corner.

I must be really tuned into the noise now because I can hear it from the other side of the room, 15 feet away, with the window open -- traffic and bird noise and all.
post #7409 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Rogo, you are golden, and I highly look forward to your posts now. Your very entertaining and you make this place more interesting for sure. Thank you for your input, please know, even if we disagree on something, I respect and value your help and input.
All jokes aside though, after seeing the pics, do you also see this when running your scroller ? And/or what do you think ? Any help appreciated.

I'll look at mine later. I may have to take digicam pics like you did to see what they look like. My bet without testing is that mine is like yours.
post #7410 of 13486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

No, it's a very accurate statement.
HDMI is a digital signal. If you are not seeing any artifacts, you have all the RF rejection you need. This is not an analog signal. Every bit of marketing speak you have been duped by to believe you need some "higher grade" of cable is crap. As one of the lower posts below describes, any HDMI cable rated for "high speed" is sufficient to carry all HDMI signals.

I know the message you are trying to convey, but you keep contradicting yourself when you say EVERY HDMI IS THE SAME - then turn right around and say AS LONG AS IT DOES NOT INTRODUCE NOISE into the signal - which clearly implies that all cables are NOT the same, or you would not have to even mention that some of them fail at completing the task of delivering the digital signal they are transferring without any artifacts.

Glad you are familiar with blue jean cables, and if you have taken time to read all of their site, they explain in detail that there is a certification process that is required for HDMI cable to ensure that they will do what they are made to do - deliver the digital picture to the TV that the source is transmitting.


From Blue Jeans Cable Site:

What Makes one HDMI Cable Better than Another, and Does it Matter?

HDMI cable quality is a bit complicated, and unfortunately, it's hard to judge from a spec sheet, especially because very few manufacturers provide any useful product specs. There are a few things to bear in mind.

At present, to our knowledge, all of our competitors' HDMI cables are built in China (for more detail on this point, see this article). The Blue Jeans Cable Belden-based HDMI cables are the only HDMI cables which are manufactured, in principal part, in the USA (for a variety of practical and economic reasons, we have been unable to do the cable termination in-house and so rely on Chinese vendors for connectorization). We are often told that some brand or other of HDMI cable is manufactured in the US, and in every case, we've found that not to be so; rather, what often happens is that while the cable is sourced from China, the marketing materials obscure the fact. Don't let the fact that an HDMI cable bears a U.S. brand name lead you to believe that that HDMI cable contains American products, American labor or American know-how; none of them, other than ours, do. And China may be an easy place to get a good price, but it is not a good place to get a leading-edge technological product; for top-quality data cables (and HDMI is a data cable), the US is still the place to go.

The Chinese source problem makes it very hard to get a spec sheet, and very hard to know what that spec sheet means, when dealing with an HDMI cable. Most vendors of HDMI cable in the US don't know what attributes would make a good HDMI cable, and since they don't participate in the manufacture beyond specifying jacket printing and the shape of the molded connector, they don't really have much reason to find out. The result is that most citations to product spec that one finds in connection with the sale of HDMI cable are references to the product's wire gage. Wire gage is somewhat meaningful, but judging HDMI cable quality by comparing wire gage is like judging automobile quality by comparing engine block length--a very, very inexact way of looking at the problem.

The primary work of an HDMI cable is done by the four shielded twisted pairs which carry the color, sync, and clock signals. The designers of the HDMI standard made an error of judgment in running these signals balanced, in twisted pairs, rather than unbalanced, in coaxes; attenuation (the tendency of the signal to get weaker with distance) is much greater, and impedance and timing are harder to control, in twisted pairs than in coax. Control of the cable impedance is critical to keeping the rounding of the bit edges under control; the more the impedance wanders off of spec, the more the signal will round, and the closer the cable comes to failure. Where a coaxial cable's impedance can be controlled within two percent of spec, it's a challenge to keep a twisted pair any tighter than about 15% plus or minus.

The HDMI signal will fail if attenuation is too high, or if the bit transitions become excessively rounded so that the receiving unit can't reconstitute them accurately. There's no really reliable benchmark for just how much attenuation is acceptable, or how round the shoulders can be, before the "sparklies" will start. (Yes, there are specs for these things in the official HDMI spec document, but real-world devices vary so much that meeting the spec is no guarantee of success, while failing it is no guarantee of actual failure.) But while wire gage has something to do with the former, it's really the latter that's important; and wire gage has nothing to do, at least directly, with impedance control.

Transmission line impedance, in any cable, is dependent on the cable's materials and physical dimensions. For purposes of an HDMI cable, these are:
1. the shape and size of the paired wires;
2. the thickness, and dielectric properties, of the insulation on the paired wires;
3. the dimensions of the shield over the pair.
These seem, in principle, like simple things to control--that is, until one spends a bit of time in a wire and cable factory and finds out just how many little problems there are. Wire is never perfect; its dimensions and shape vary from point to point, and small dimensional variations can make for significant impedance changes. Wire can suffer from periodicity (in fact, strictly speaking, it not only can, but always, at some level, does) because (for example) it's been drawn over a wheel that was microscopically out-of-round, and that periodicity will cause the wire to resonate at particular wavelengths, which can really wreak havoc. The plastic dielectric has to be consistently extruded to the correct diameter (and thousandths of an inch matter here!); if it's foamed, it needs to have highly consistent bubble size so that one side of the dielectric isn't airier than another, or one foot airier than the next. The two wires in the pair need not to wander in relation to one another; as they "open up" or are pressed tightly together because of tensioning on the wire-twisting machine (or tension applied to the cable by other handling, or by shield application, or...), or because the finished cable is being flexed, the impedance changes. The shield is a factor in the impedance as well, because both signal wires have capacitance to the shield, and if the foil is wrapped more tightly in one place and more loosely in another, that, too, will cause impedance to vary. (And these are just a few of the obvious problems; manufacturing processes involve other problems that nobody not involved in manufacturing would ever think of. For example, the lube that's used to assist in wire drawing needs to be washed off the wire before dielectric is extruded over it; what if the side from which a jet of cleaner is fired at the wire gets cleaner than the opposite side, and the dielectric winds up conforming differently to one side of the cable than the other? What about the other thousand things you and I, not working in a wire factory, have never even begun to think about?) As a result, although every manufacturer's HDMI cable is built to meet a nominal 100 ohm characteristic impedance, every foot of every cable is different from every other. The best one can do is to hold impedance within a range, centered on 100 ohms; the official HDMI spec calls for 100 ohms plus or minus 15%, which for a coax would be horribly sloppy. The tighter that tolerance can be kept, the better the performance will be.

Worse still, impedance is not a one-dimensional characteristic. HDMI cable operates over an enormous frequency bandwidth, and impedance in a twisted pair is frequency-dependent (in a coax it is, too, but far, far less so). A twisted pair's impedance will rise relative to frequency; how much it will do so, and how evenly and regularly, will depend upon subtle physical characteristics. So, strictly speaking, no cable can actually be within tolerance for impedance over the whole operating range of the cable; it can only be within tolerance by the method the spec designates for measurement.

Impedance control is important for another reason: timing. As impedance varies, so will the time it takes a signal to travel down the cable. Electricity travels at nearly the speed of light; how close to the speed of light it travels depends on the dielectric, and is referred to as the "velocity of propagation." The objective, in putting together the four pairs in an HDMI cable, is to have them be identical; but in actual practice, each pair in a four-pair set will have its own delay. If the delay of one pair is sufficiently greater than the delay of another pair, the receiving device will not know which "red" pixel belongs to which "blue" and "green" pixel, or if the clock circuit is off, it may be impossible to time any of the color signals reliably. Since this delay depends on the consistency and dimensions of the dielectric, and the consistency and dimensions of the dielectric are important factors in impedance, the same requirement for consistent impedance applies here; if impedance is too inconsistent, timing will be too inconsistent, and the whole system will fail.

One way of looking at cable performance is to chart the attenuation for a given length of cable against frequency. For any cable, attenuation (measured in dB) will increase with frequency; this attenuation comes from a few factors. Loss to resistance goes up with frequency, because higher frequency signals are able to use less and less of the cross-section of the wire (this is known as "skin effect") and so have less copper to travel through. Losses to reactance -- capacitance and inductance -- also increase with frequency. Then, what we call "return loss" adds the most irregular, and difficult-to-control, component to the loss. "Return loss" is the loss to impedance mismatch, and is so called because it represents the portion of the signal which is lost when, upon encountering a change in the impedance of the circuit (this may be a change in impedance along the cable, or a change of impedance on entering or leaving a connector, or a circuit board trace, or encountering a different impedance than expected at the load end of the circuit), it reflects back along the cable towards the source rather than being delivered to the load. While basic resistive and reactive losses are pretty reliable and have a definite relationship to frequency, return loss can be quite irregular. A graph of return loss against frequency, rather than showing a nice, consistent curve, is characterized by sharp, spiky lines. Why is this? Well, return loss has to do, more than anything else, with those manufacturing tolerances and their impact upon impedance. Every wire, at some level, has some periodicity, and so resonates somewhat at some unintended frequency. Every dielectric extruder fails, at some level, to extrude the dielectric consistently; every spooler that winds wire or dielectric-covered wire, every wire twister, every unreeler that handles that wire as it goes back into another stage of processing, every foil-wrap and drain-wire machine, every planetary cabler (which bundles and twists the pairs together with one another), every jacket handler and extruder--all of these machines, in all of these processes, apply microscopic irregularities to the cable which show up as return loss. Return loss can't be eliminated, at least not in a real-world cable; but it can be, within limits, made as small and as consistent across a range of frequencies, as possible.

Generally speaking, devices handle very linear or predictable losses very well. If one knows that one part of a signal will come in a thousand times weaker than another part, it's easy to "EQ" the incoming signal to boost the weak part to match the level of the strong part. But return loss can't be EQ'd out because it's too uneven and unpredictable.

Return loss, not resistance, is the critical consideration in determining the quality of an HDMI cable; if one were comparing cables with similar resistance, capacitance, and inductance values against one another, and consulting a chart of attenuation relative to frequency, what one would generally see would be that cables with superior return loss characteristics would show a flatter attenuation curve than the others. This is very important in HDMI because the required bandwidth for an HDMI signal is enormous, and the higher the frequency, the harder it is to control return loss.

Generally, in looking at HDMI cable products currently available on the market, we've found that these issues get overlooked. Instead of trying to control impedance well, which will result in flattening the curve on the attenuation chart, manufacturers generally try to control resistance. Why? Well, resistance is a lot easier to control. Bigger wire (smaller AWG number) has less resistance, and choice of materials can play a role, too (silver-plated copper is lower in resistance than bare copper, and bare copper is lower in resistance than tin-plated copper, for example). But as the frequency demands placed on the cable increase, bigger wire doesn't really help all that much (and, for a whole slew of reasons having to do with manufacturing process control, it can actually hurt), because it's not the total loss that's limiting performance; it's the non-linear component of the loss that's the real problem. With return loss specs not generally available for Chinese-sourced cable, one often can't get a good idea exactly what basis there is for comparison between two HDMI cables.

So, how does one compare? We provide a spec sheet for our HDMI cable, but you will find, if you go looking for similar specs on competing products, that spec sheets are few and far between. Another basis for comparison is to get your vendor to send you a copy of his compliance testing certificate, showing the length and testing "category" of his HDMI cable approval--but, for various reasons, many vendors cannot or will not supply this information. Sometimes, all one can do is try a cable on a given set of devices, and see if it works. That may not be the most satisfying answer, but it is often the only answer there is.
Edited by Bamadawg_63 - 10/30/12 at 9:08pm
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