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Official Panasonic VT50 owners thread - Page 255

post #7621 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

Makes perfect sense. I truly enjoyed viewing the VT50 at Magnolia, but my ISF guy is telling me to go Samsung. I have read that Samsungs have more detail and "pop" (how's that for subjective!). However, my number 1 reason for going from LED to Plasma is for deep blacks and the best off axis viewing. I think the VT50 is my best bet as I will quickly notice any deficiency in black levels. Magnolia demo'd The Dark Knight for me on the 65" VT50 and I loved it (I've watched the first 15 minutes many times on my LED (Samsung UN60D7000)

I use THE DESCENT bluray to test black levels. The dark scenes in the caves will test the black levels to their absolute limits.

1000
post #7622 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Figured as much. Thanks for verifying. Now you got me wondering if possibly this situation is a panel by panel thing ? Or do the channels maybe have different logos in different regions/states ? Cause here in San Francisco, CA The History Channel has this fully bright, full color absolutely no transparency logo. Unlike some of the other stations that have their logos slightly grayed out, transparent by about 50% and not in color. Or some have them disappear for 5 minutes, then come back for 5 minutes, etc.. Well The History Channel is like I said and also on 100% of the time.
Is The History Channel's logo like that for your too ? We are using Comcast. But I am sure the logos are channel broadcast related and not provider related. Also, do you watch it for a full hour or plus, and then maybe turn off your tv and then next time it is one watch that same channel again ? Also, if you don't mind me asking, what is your settings at ? Just brightness and contrast.

FWIW, the first weekend I got my vt50 I spent 10 hours watching football, CBS, FOX, NBC, logos, score bars, and all, then threw in a couple more hours watching recaps on Espn and Nfl network, with huge amount of junk on the screen. Didn't use dim mode either. I put in cnet settings and set contrast at 87 and brightness at 56. (it's contrast that matters where IR is concerned.) No IR at all. I don't watch history channels but plenty of food network and hgtv, which have non transparent color logos. Nothing. I regularly check for IR using the slides and I get up close and personal with the tv.

There seems to be two camps on IR. There are people with no problems and think it's overblown and/ or blame it on people setting it up wrong or being OCD. Then there are people like you who seem to be doing all the right things but still get very quick onset IR. I've read a lot of these posts and my conclusion -- putting aside the wide range of viewing habits and picture settings -- is some sets are just more prone to IR than others.

I think your options are: 1/ forget it and just watch tv. If you ever get permanent burn in, use your warranty. 2/ if you think this is something that will continue to bug your mom and detract from her enjoyment, return and get a LCD. (can she see the IR'ed logo while watching something else?) 3/ if she really likes the tv other than the IR and you are within your return window and have a dealer with good exchange policy, you can try exchanging it for another vt50 (provided you can return it if not satisfied) Roll the dice again, you may get lucky. This time, just start watching tv normally right away at your preferred settings (don't bother with the break in). You'll know if it has the same IR tendency.
post #7623 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

If you ever get permanent burn in, use your warranty.
Not covered under warranty. Unless, Panasonic has this added warranty benefit for its VT50 line?
post #7624 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

That's just not true.

Burn-in is permanent damage. It's wear the phosphors are literally worn out in a differentiated pattern so you can't get rid of the burned-in image no matter what you do. You're mistaken in believing that you have to "catch" the image retention before it becomes permanent. It just doesn't work that way.

The phosphor life is too long to be realistically burned in on these plasmas.

OK, now, that said, anyone still worrying about this in 2012 needs to just go buy an LCD. Anyone running their pixel flipper or scrolling bar regularly should buy an LCD. All that behavior is basically pointless and if you feel like it's necessary, you should just get an LCD and stop being so OCD.

Cool, if you say it won't ever burn in then over repeated same IR digging deeper and deeper, then I won't worry about it I guess. One more thing that supports my theory though, is, if you were right, then all IR would take the same amount of time to erase, right ? If IR doesn't get worse and eventually turn into BI.... Well I can verify it does get harder to erase anyway... If she continues to watch the same channel again before the previous IR has been erased, then its like etched deeper in the pixels and it takes longer to get rid of. To me this points to IR if ignored AND of course constantly repeated could get so bad that it turns into BI.

Again though, I am not saying this will happen, I am pointing out real life situation I am experiencing, then using common sense. I can understand the science you are saying, but one thing I've learnt in life is, science sometimes looks good on paper, but real life situation always is the true answer. And what I am experiencing is spelling a difference to the science of phosphor wear out. Though, like I said, I still believe you.

I did buy a LCD, I have a XBR950. Love it. This VT50 is the TV I bought for my mom. We both love it too. Its not OCD when you buy a 2k TV and you can see images of something you previously watched in a screen while your viewing other content. Thats the whole point of buying these TVs right ? We are all anal about our picture. If not, she'd have kept her old Sony Trinitron SD TV... But we wanted to go all HD baby, and we are video anal nuts.... All we ask is a perfect picture. Its like if I were demanding you to just sit back and accept it if your TV produced no Blue color or was missing a certain color. Thats a flaw. And so is this and it bugs us about the same. How is that OCD ? OCD is washing your hands eight times after you washed them 8 times and turning the door handle 3 times before you open it every time.

Making sure a company delivers my a perfect screen is not OCD, unless I got the TV for free. My XBR950 is perfect in every way. I even got the colors and settings dialed in to look like this VT50 ! But with more light with equal blacks ! Not one dead pixel and IR just don't happen. Already passed out one night with my video game on pause -- woke up the next day = golden. I don't think we are OCD. What I think is you possibly don't experience what we experience and that maybe equals to you not understanding it. Maybe ?

But when I stay on it and erase it at least a touch, then even though its still there, we don't see it in other content. To me this all points to IR indeed has a "depth" factor. If indeed it has a depth factor, then it is not crazy to say it can eventually lead to permanent IR (BI) if ignored and compiled with the same viewing. No ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

FWIW, the first weekend I got my vt50 I spent 10 hours watching football, CBS, FOX, NBC, logos, score bars, and all, then threw in a couple more hours watching recaps on Espn and Nfl network, with huge amount of junk on the screen. Didn't use dim mode either. I put in cnet settings and set contrast at 87 and brightness at 56. (it's contrast that matters where IR is concerned.) No IR at all. I don't watch history channels but plenty of food network and hgtv, which have non transparent color logos. Nothing. I regularly check for IR using the slides and I get up close and personal with the tv.

There seems to be two camps on IR. There are people with no problems and think it's overblown and/ or blame it on people setting it up wrong or being OCD. Then there are people like you who seem to be doing all the right things but still get very quick onset IR. I've read a lot of these posts and my conclusion -- putting aside the wide range of viewing habits and picture settings -- is some sets are just more prone to IR than others.

I think your options are: 1/ forget it and just watch tv. If you ever get permanent burn in, use your warranty. 2/ if you think this is something that will continue to bug your mom and detract from her enjoyment, return and get a LCD. (can she see the IR'ed logo while watching something else?) 3/ if she really likes the tv other than the IR and you are within your return window and have a dealer with good exchange policy, you can try exchanging it for another vt50 (provided you can return it if not satisfied) Roll the dice again, you may get lucky. This time, just start watching tv normally right away at your preferred settings (don't bother with the break in). You'll know if it has the same IR tendency.

This is big news, definitely pointing towards panels being prone to it and some not. Thanks for this info. And I agree.

Them options are dead on brother. And we are pretty sure we are going with 1 for now... as to really give Rogo's theory a true test, and also cause we like the PQ. Yes, if the IR gets "deep" enough, we (both my mom and I) can see it faintly in normal content with any color on that area. If the screen's area where the logo was is all white, we see it very strongly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

If you ever get permanent burn in, use your warranty.
Not covered under warranty. Unless, Panasonic has this added warranty benefit for its VT50 line?
With BB Extended warranty, we verified before purchase that it does warranty BI. Its a special upgraded warranty. $300 for 4 years. But its a complete "performance" warranty. The only thing it does not cover is physical damage done by the user. EVERYTHING else is under a "performance" warranty. Meaning, if ever the TV is not "performing" as it did brand new out the box, then we get a free replacement.
post #7625 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by CruelInventions View Post

Not covered under warranty. Unless, Panasonic has this added warranty benefit for its VT50 line?

Burn-in of tv channel logo's is covered by Panasonic over here ( The Netherlands), things such as game huds and such are not.
post #7626 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelxD View Post

Cool, if you say it won't ever burn in then over repeated same IR digging deeper and deeper, then I won't worry about it I guess. One more thing that supports my theory though, is, if you were right, then all IR would take the same amount of time to erase, right ? If IR doesn't get worse and eventually turn into BI.... Well I can verify it does get harder to erase anyway... If she continues to watch the same channel again before the previous IR has been erased, then its like etched deeper in the pixels and it takes longer to get rid of. To me this points to IR if ignored AND of course constantly repeated could get so bad that it turns into BI.

I really don't want to be rude here, but your lack of understanding of the difference between the two means you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on your observations.

You basically say, "I think this thing will become that thing because I believe it." I'm telling you, "they are not the same thing and therefore one cannot become the other."

Sometimes, a lot of suntans can lead to skin cancer. But there is no way that a lot of suntans can cause you to run out of melanin and become an albino.
Quote:
I did buy a LCD, I have a XBR950. Love it. This VT50 is the TV I bought for my mom. We both love it too. Its not OCD when you buy a 2k TV and you can see images of something you previously watched in a screen while your viewing other content. Thats the whole point of buying these TVs right ? We are all anal about our picture. If not, she'd have kept her old Sony Trinitron SD TV... But we wanted to go all HD baby, and we are video anal nuts.... All we ask is a perfect picture. Its like if I were demanding you to just sit back and accept it if your TV produced no Blue color or was missing a certain color. Thats a flaw. And so is this and it bugs us about the same. How is that OCD ? OCD is washing your hands eight times after you washed them 8 times and turning the door handle 3 times before you open it every time.

OCD is running pixel erasers and obsessing about a channel logo. It's a lot like hand washing. If your TV is turning you into a door-handle turner, you should get a different TV.
[quote[
Making sure a company delivers my a perfect screen is not OCD, unless I got the TV for free. My XBR950 is perfect in every way. I even got the colors and settings dialed in to look like this VT50 ! But with more light with equal blacks ! Not one dead pixel and IR just don't happen. Already passed out one night with my video game on pause -- woke up the next day = golden. I don't think we are OCD. What I think is you possibly don't experience what we experience and that maybe equals to you not understanding it. Maybe ?[/quote]

I'm fine with making sure your TV works out of the box. Everyone should do that.

It's also true my VT50 exhibits absolutely no image retention of any kind. But if I happen to have a logo that got image retained once in a while, I would either (a) ignore or (b) return the TV. Option (c) scrubbing like a person in need of therapy is not a choice I would make.
Quote:
But when I stay on it and erase it at least a touch, then even though its still there, we don't see it in other content. To me this all points to IR indeed has a "depth" factor. If indeed it has a depth factor, then it is not crazy to say it can eventually lead to permanent IR (BI) if ignored and compiled with the same viewing. No ?

It's wrong, not crazy. Crazy is 9/11 truthing. Wrong is just wrong.

Just because image retention can become more stubborn doesn't mean that stubborn becomes permanent. If I drive through the mud on my SUV a few times, it'll be harder to clean. But it will never become impossible to remove the mud. That's different from something that scratches the paint. I think that's a pretty good analogy.
Quote:
This is big news, definitely pointing towards panels being prone to it and some not. Thanks for this info. And I agree.

That seems true because I cannot cause image retention on mine, no matter what I do.
post #7627 of 13462
Ummm.... PLEASE DONT SHOOT!! wink.gif lol! Will me playing video games on a 65st50 burn in if i play 1-3hrs in a row then watch movies??? thanks.
post #7628 of 13462
Just play the game and enjoy it. There is no reason to obsess over IR.

1000
post #7629 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's also true my VT50 exhibits absolutely no image retention of any kind.
This probably isn't the case. It's likely that you don't have anything you can see when watching normal moving pictures, but unless you have restricted your viewing habits severely (no channel with a high luminance logo, no long pause of almost any fixed image, etc.) there is almost certainly something that could be seen with the right static image.

I can't see any IR on my set when doing normal viewing. Only my horrific Windows desktop issue was noticable on a moving picture, but only some parts were visible at a time, based on the current image colors. If I run slides or the moving bar, I currently see logos from MLB network. At other times, other logos are visible when running slides. I'm sure I could see them during regular viewing with the same sort of stationary solid color in the same area as the logo. I don't worry about this IR because obviously it is based on my recent viewing habits, and what is retained changes over time. But it is there to be seen under the right circumstances.
Quote:
But if I happen to have a logo that got image retained once in a while, I would either (a) ignore or (b) return the TV.
Where did you buy your TV that they would accept a return for a issue not covered by warranty?
post #7630 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by nabsltd View Post

This probably isn't the case. It's likely that you don't have anything you can see when watching normal moving pictures, but unless you have restricted your viewing habits severely (no channel with a high luminance logo, no long pause of almost any fixed image, etc.) there is almost certainly something that could be seen with the right static image.
I can't see any IR on my set when doing normal viewing. Only my horrific Windows desktop issue was noticable on a moving picture, but only some parts were visible at a time, based on the current image colors. If I run slides or the moving bar, I currently see logos from MLB network. At other times, other logos are visible when running slides. I'm sure I could see them during regular viewing with the same sort of stationary solid color in the same area as the logo. I don't worry about this IR because obviously it is based on my recent viewing habits, and what is retained changes over time. But it is there to be seen under the right circumstances.

Actually, because of the mania on these forums, I have spent way too long trying to find image retention on my TV. Way too long. It is not there. Sorry, but it isn't. I have no restricted viewing habits, but will note that I rarely have a computer hooked up. I have left menus from PS3 on screen for extended periods of time, however.

I watch a lot of sports. I have frozen the screen on light and dark backgrounds after extended viewing to try to locate this image retention. It is simply not there.
Quote:
Where did you buy your TV that they would accept a return for a issue not covered by warranty?

Amazon.
post #7631 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Actually, because of the mania on these forums

I don't know which gets more unnecessary attention, IR or D-Nice slides. smile.gif
post #7632 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

I don't know which gets more unnecessary attention, IR or D-Nice slides. smile.gif

And the "D-Nice slides" that everybody talks about here are not even D-Nice's - they're Evangelo's biggrin.gif

I watch a LOT of local and network news as well as a lot of Speed Channel, all with logos and banners and tickers and i do get a little IR from some of the crap on my screen, but i can only see it on some light scenes and it quickly goes away after i change the channel and i can't notice it anymore.

Even if i do eventually develop some burn-in in the lower right corner from the various KTLA5/KABC7/KNBC4/FOX/CNN/HGTV/BBC etc etc logos i already have a habit of not looking at station logos in that area so i won't really notice it anyway. I'd gladly take logo burn-in over all the other screen problems and issues one gets with an LCD TV.
post #7633 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post


I watch a LOT of local and network news as well as a lot of Speed Channel, all with logos and banners and tickers and i do get a little IR from some of the crap on my screen, but i can only see it on some light scenes and it quickly goes away after i change the channel and i can't notice it anymore.

While calibrating, I've run continuous windows patterns for as long as 4 hours on both a 65VT50 and Samsung PN51D8000 and of course that results in IR on both displays. All I do is switch to normal content and the unwanted image is gone within an hour or so. IR seems to be not so persistent as it was a few years ago but apparently some recent displays are not acting the same as mine. I haven't seen one though.
post #7634 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

FWIW, the first weekend I got my vt50 I spent 10 hours watching football, CBS, FOX, NBC, logos, score bars, and all, then threw in a couple more hours watching recaps on Espn and Nfl network, with huge amount of junk on the screen. Didn't use dim mode either. I put in cnet settings and set contrast at 87 and brightness at 56. (it's contrast that matters where IR is concerned.) No IR at all. I don't watch history channels but plenty of food network and hgtv, which have non transparent color logos. Nothing. I regularly check for IR using the slides and I get up close and personal with the tv.
There seems to be two camps on IR. There are people with no problems and think it's overblown and/ or blame it on people setting it up wrong or being OCD. Then there are people like you who seem to be doing all the right things but still get very quick onset IR. I've read a lot of these posts and my conclusion -- putting aside the wide range of viewing habits and picture settings -- is some sets are just more prone to IR than others.

Just out of curiosity, what is the build date of your TV?

Michael
post #7635 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post

FWIW, the first weekend I got my vt50 I spent 10 hours watching football, CBS, FOX, NBC, logos, score bars, and all, then threw in a couple more hours watching recaps on Espn and Nfl network, with huge amount of junk on the screen. Didn't use dim mode either. I put in cnet settings and set contrast at 87 and brightness at 56. (it's contrast that matters where IR is concerned.) No IR at all. I don't watch history channels but plenty of food network and hgtv, which have non transparent color logos. Nothing. I regularly check for IR using the slides and I get up close and personal with the tv.
There seems to be two camps on IR. There are people with no problems and think it's overblown and/ or blame it on people setting it up wrong or being OCD. Then there are people like you who seem to be doing all the right things but still get very quick onset IR. I've read a lot of these posts and my conclusion -- putting aside the wide range of viewing habits and picture settings -- is some sets are just more prone to IR than others.
I think your options are: 1/ forget it and just watch tv. If you ever get permanent burn in, use your warranty. 2/ if you think this is something that will continue to bug your mom and detract from her enjoyment, return and get a LCD. (can she see the IR'ed logo while watching something else?) 3/ if she really likes the tv other than the IR and you are within your return window and have a dealer with good exchange policy, you can try exchanging it for another vt50 (provided you can return it if not satisfied) Roll the dice again, you may get lucky. This time, just start watching tv normally right away at your preferred settings (don't bother with the break in). You'll know if it has the same IR tendency.

Hmm, both the "two camps" comment and the "options" section are really good here.
post #7636 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really don't want to be rude here, but your lack of understanding of the difference between the two means you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on your observations.
You basically say, "I think this thing will become that thing because I believe it." I'm telling you, "they are not the same thing and therefore one cannot become the other."

I think JoelxD has a legitimate question here. You are not going to get burn-in without first having IR. Are they the same issue? No, but then neither is having bald tires, and then having a blowout.

Certainly, if you run the same channel logo day after day without other material, eventually you will get burn-in. Funny thing is, even an LCD TV can get image retention with pixels stuck in one position all the time. New LCD computer monitors apparently are be built differently (old ones did have this problem).

Michael
post #7637 of 13462
HI all.

I'm thrilled with my new VT50 with ONE exception. The amount of input lag when gaming on the XBOX seems very, very high. FPS games are actually tricky to control due to the lag. The reviews I've all seen suggest that the lag is actually quite low so I suspect there is something wrong in my setup somewhere.

I've tried all the display settings, NORMAL, GAME, THX etc and they are all as bad as each other. My XBOX is connected to my Onkyo 609 reciever and the receiver is not doing any scaling as far as I know.. it's just passing through the video straight through.

Does anyone who games with a VT50 have any similar experiences ? Could it be a quirk between the TV and the receiver ? My old Kuro which was connected to the receiver beforehand played XBOX games really well with what felt like little to no lag... the Pana, by all accounts, should be almost identical.

1000
post #7638 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really don't want to be rude here, but your lack of understanding of the difference between the two means you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on your observations.

You basically say, "I think this thing will become that thing because I believe it." I'm telling you, "they are not the same thing and therefore one cannot become the other."
Your not being rude at all. I actually appreciate the effort and time you take to either prove your point or teach me.. I do see your points and science about it, yes, and I see what your getting at. I just hope it hold true to my panel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

OCD is running pixel erasers and obsessing about a channel logo. It's a lot like hand washing. If your TV is turning you into a door-handle turner, you should get a different TV.
I disagree. There is nothing wrong with a persistent man, that knows what he wants, works for it and achieves it. This in life over several different subjects gets mistaken for OCD'ness all the time by those who like to do less. Its like my neighbor telling me I'm OCD about my cars how I wash them and keep them all sparkly looking. Well sure, to him, cause he doesn't buy new cars and he don't care to keep things nice. I do. To some this appears like OCD (though I believe its a reverse form of subconscious jealousy. Dude, I buy tight expensive stuff all the time and I like to keep it tight. I put the energy in to do it (which is maybe why I'm physically fit too) so I see nothing wrong with what the lazy person thinks is "OCD". OCD seems to be the new word people like to use out of real context is all I'm saying. There are some of us that like to try and fiddle and work and work to get something JUST the way we want it. This stems from ever since a child if I did so like that, I was rewarded by the universe by having the thing I worked on come out the way I wanted ! So I continue, and so far it has never failed me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I'm fine with making sure your TV works out of the box. Everyone should do that.
Problem with IR though, is its not something you can just "check" out of the box. It is this odd weird "growing" ", time will only tell" thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

It's also true my VT50 exhibits absolutely no image retention of any kind. But if I happen to have a logo that got image retained once in a while, I would either (a) ignore or (b) return the TV. Option (c) scrubbing like a person in need of therapy is not a choice I would make.
Well consider yourself one of the lucky ones whose panel maybe is the kind where your IR either doesn't come on so strong and fast, and/or can be erased so quickly. Cause it seems like your experiences are different from mine with this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Sometimes, a lot of suntans can lead to skin cancer. But there is no way that a lot of suntans can cause you to run out of melanin and become an albino. Just because image retention can become more stubborn doesn't mean that stubborn becomes permanent. If I drive through the mud on my SUV a few times, it'll be harder to clean. But it will never become impossible to remove the mud. That's different from something that scratches the paint. I think that's a pretty good analogy.
I do see where you are going with all this, so I will just say that. And I do see what you are trying with the analogies, BUT from experience I do have to tell you that both these analogies are wrong. Again though I see the point you were trying to make and it has taught me, so you were successful.

Unfortunately, (speaking from experience) both my mom and I have olive to slightly dark skin. So we get really dark in the summer and way whiter during the winter. Just by nature. Now when we were younger (at separate times obviously, but we compared notes) we both used to get a lot darker in the summer. Past 30 years old we noticed we can barely get even close to as dark as we used to get. Wondered what the issue was... Diet ? Etc.. ? Read up that actully contrary to some doctors beliefs, melanin actually can be over excited when your younger (if your in the sun a lot) and you "wear it out" in a sense... making it so when your older you will never tan the same and you will be and stay permanently whiter. As we have. BUT I agree, no, you will not turn into a albino. BUT the proof is, indeed, you can "wear out" your melanin. And FYI, skin cancer from sun is what people OCD about. The sun is a vital thing for you. Too much of it ? Hmmm, never personally witnessed that and I've spent MONTHS in the sun all day everyday before. All I felt was a ton healthier and more energy than I do living like a caveman (like I do now :-( )

The dirt on paint analogy - Again, see your point, and you got it across, BUT Unfortunately again, this analogy is not true. If you let any stain dirt or not stay on your car for too long, it can permanently discolor the original paint. For sure ! Even bird poop ! Now I agree, if you get more dirt on your car than a little, and then wash it all off asap, the fact that you got more dirt on your car will not equal anything worse than less dirt.

Problem, is, is this proof of how the analogies are, is similar to my worry of IR. But again, I see the point and the science, and I just hope the IR to BI thing is not at all like those analogies (cause then indeed IR could "wear" into BI), but just more like how the point you are trying to get across is. Bottom line, the way IR is and what it is, is not related to what BI is. Thats what you are saying, and I hope it is true. IR is more like writing something with your finger in the sand. It can go away with one swipe, or naturally gets blown away by the wind. In no way could it ever turn into something permanent. BUT BI is more like something etched into metal. Neither are related and both caused by something different and one is staying permanent because it was CREATED by a different process (not a finger).
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

That seems true because I cannot cause image retention on mine, no matter what I do.
Yea, and I'm jealous, you lucky bas. biggrin.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by dizzyscure1 View Post

Ummm.... PLEASE DONT SHOOT!! wink.gif lol! Will me playing video games on a 65st50 burn in if i play 1-3hrs in a row then watch movies??? thanks.
I would say not BI, but IR for sure. How and when this would bother you is all up to you. 1-3 hours is not that much gaming. So I would say you will be only getting IR. Not BI. But for me IR gets annoying. So..... take it as you want.

I game, and I got a XBR950 for myself. It also presents games better IMO after long testing. And I also game sometimes up to 6 hours a day at times. I got the VT50 for my mom, as she is mainly a movie watcher, 0 games.

I will be testing Rogo's theory on IR will never turn to BI... which I honestly can accept. I just want to test and verify before 4 years is up. I will let you know the outcome after vigorous testing. But this will take a while.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I watch a LOT of local and network news as well as a lot of Speed Channel, all with logos and banners and tickers and i do get a little IR from some of the crap on my screen, but i can only see it on some light scenes and it quickly goes away after i change the channel and i can't notice it anymore.

Even if i do eventually develop some burn-in in the lower right corner from the various KTLA5/KABC7/KNBC4/FOX/CNN/HGTV/BBC etc etc logos i already have a habit of not looking at station logos in that area so i won't really notice it anyway.
Damn, your lucky, cause this is not my experience :-(
Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post

I'd gladly take logo burn-in over all the other screen problems and issues one gets with an LCD TV.
Really ? I have both, and came into this TOTALLY open minded and fair and unbiased. I see and have absolutely zero problems with my XBR950 and I love the crisp detail and perfect brightness along with just as deep blacks as the VT50. Can find or see ONE problem with it that is even close to IR or BI. The one thing is viewing angle. But that barely holds a candle to the issue of IR and BI.

NOW, I will admit, if my IR was more like yours and Rogo's, then maybe I'd agree ? lol Who knows ? But if I let you borrow my IR on my VT50, and my XBR950 and compare the two for a few months, and I wonder what you'd say ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzard767 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyWalters View Post


I watch a LOT of local and network news as well as a lot of Speed Channel, all with logos and banners and tickers and i do get a little IR from some of the crap on my screen, but i can only see it on some light scenes and it quickly goes away after i change the channel and i can't notice it anymore.

While calibrating, I've run continuous windows patterns for as long as 4 hours on both a 65VT50 and Samsung PN51D8000 and of course that results in IR on both displays. All I do is switch to normal content and the unwanted image is gone within an hour or so. IR seems to be not so persistent as it was a few years ago but apparently some recent displays are not acting the same as mine. I haven't seen one though.

Damn, again, not my exoerience :-( You guys are lucky and I wish I was too with this VT50.
post #7639 of 13462
Guys,

anyone know if the P50VT50E would output the sound through the DIGITAL OUT from any selected AV input (HDMI, etc) and not only the build in TV tuners? Thanks much in advance
post #7640 of 13462
Guys all of vt50 latest builds have the vt50e-2 on the back sticker? Are the problems eliminated? Right side banding, dse etc?
post #7641 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by barth2k View Post


Hmm, both the "two camps" comment and the "options" section are really good here.
I highly agree ! And they are also much appreciated. smile.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael2000 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really don't want to be rude here, but your lack of understanding of the difference between the two means you are drawing incorrect conclusions based on your observations.
You basically say, "I think this thing will become that thing because I believe it." I'm telling you, "they are not the same thing and therefore one cannot become the other."

I think JoelxD has a legitimate question here. You are not going to get burn-in without first having IR. Are they the same issue? No, but then neither is having bald tires, and then having a blowout.

Certainly, if you run the same channel logo day after day without other material, eventually you will get burn-in. Funny thing is, even an LCD TV can get image retention with pixels stuck in one position all the time. New LCD computer monitors apparently are be built differently (old ones did have this problem).

Michael

Thanks for the help here Michael, and the support. I admit, I am still on the fence about this, only true testing will reveal. In Rogo's defense, what he is saying is, ok, IR is the balding tire, BUT BI is now no longer a tire issue at all. We have now left the rubber construct of a tire and went into another matter entirely. Something like that. And I can totally give that some plausible credit and acceptance.

At the same time I also have not ruled out my calculation/conclusions either, they just make too much real world applicational sense. Rogo seems to have more scientific knowledge in this area than I, and I am only trying to use my common sense attached to some real world experiences I am experiencing so far with it... So admittedly I could be wrong. But thats why I will be testing this.

Please you or anyone else continue to chime in on this matter if you find any solid evidence as to whether or not constant repeated IR or the exact same thing over and over BEFORE the previous IR was erased, will this eventually turn into BI ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000 View Post

HI all.

I'm thrilled with my new VT50 with ONE exception. The amount of input lag when gaming on the XBOX seems very, very high. FPS games are actually tricky to control due to the lag. The reviews I've all seen suggest that the lag is actually quite low so I suspect there is something wrong in my setup somewhere.

I've tried all the display settings, NORMAL, GAME, THX etc and they are all as bad as each other. My XBOX is connected to my Onkyo 609 reciever and the receiver is not doing any scaling as far as I know.. it's just passing through the video straight through.

Does anyone who games with a VT50 have any similar experiences ? Could it be a quirk between the TV and the receiver ? My old Kuro which was connected to the receiver beforehand played XBOX games really well with what felt like little to no lag... the Pana, by all accounts, should be almost identical.

1000

Sad to say, even with the specs saying what they say. Being a avid gamer, I tested this extensively. I found the VT50 to have way more input lag even in game mode than the TV I ended up choosing over it when it was even not in game mode. So yea, sad to say, the VT50 has poor input lag. Probably 1/4 of the reason I decided to not buy it for my gaming. Bottom line, the VT50 SHINES with movies. And movies, you need not worry about input lag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post

Guys,

anyone know if the P50VT50E would output the sound through the DIGITAL OUT from any selected AV input (HDMI, etc) and not only the build in TV tuners? Thanks much in advance
Yes it should. That output should output anything the built in speakers would be able to play. Since they can play the sound from any input (HDMI, etc..) then yes it will.
post #7642 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by polakis View Post

Guys all of vt50 latest builds have the vt50e-2 on the back sticker? Are the problems eliminated? Right side banding, dse etc?
I don't have a latest build (May 2012), but I also don't have any of those picture issues. I don't think they are build-specific, but rather unit-specific. SInce such issues usually show up within the 30-day return window that most stores give, and definitely within the warranty period, I wouldn't worry about them too much.
post #7643 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by nabsltd View Post

Where did you buy your TV that they would accept a return for a issue not covered by warranty?

Amazon.
I know Amazon accepts returns on TVs for any reason within 30 days of purchase, but I don't see any policy that they accept returns at all after that. I know that some people have talked to the right people and made such returns, but usually those are not long beyond the 30-day window. I don't think you'd have much luck returning your TV a year from now because of IR.

The biggest danger in buying from Amazon, though, is that Amazon itself generally isn't the lowest price for the VT50, so unless you specifically click the "# new from $###" link, you might get a TV from a seller that only follows the written Amazon policy of 30 days with no exceptions. On the other hand, you might get Cleveland Plasma, who have great customer service.
post #7644 of 13462
Joel,. if you can still return the TV, return it. That's my free advice. You are agonizing over this way too much.

nabsltd, I got an equal/better price from Amazon than Cleveland could offer at the time. I think Cleveland is a great e-tailer but when I bought they could not do better than what I paid at Amazon. Generally, I will happily pay 2-5% to buy from Amazon by the way. That's not a comment about TV buying, it's general.
post #7645 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1000 View Post

HI all.
I'm thrilled with my new VT50 with ONE exception. The amount of input lag when gaming on the XBOX seems very, very high. FPS games are actually tricky to control due to the lag. The reviews I've all seen suggest that the lag is actually quite low so I suspect there is something wrong in my setup somewhere.
I've tried all the display settings, NORMAL, GAME, THX etc and they are all as bad as each other. My XBOX is connected to my Onkyo 609 reciever and the receiver is not doing any scaling as far as I know.. it's just passing through the video straight through.
Does anyone who games with a VT50 have any similar experiences ? Could it be a quirk between the TV and the receiver ? My old Kuro which was connected to the receiver beforehand played XBOX games really well with what felt like little to no lag... the Pana, by all accounts, should be almost identical.
1000

I would connect the Xbox directly to the TV, make sure it is in Game Mode, and all processing OFF.

The VT50 is known for low input lag.

Michael
post #7646 of 13462
I am a competitive fps player, and yes gaming on the vt50 is absolutely unplayable at a high level, the input lag is too much. Anything that is over half a frame, 8ms, is unplayable. I can feel the difference between my 8.3ms EVO monitor and my 16ms LG monitor. Most casuals won't mind the lag, but many people do. There are many fighting game players who refuse to play on anything that's not a CRT.

Other than competitive fps or fighting games, the vt50 does just fine for everything else. If you don't mind the lag and and just play casually, then go right on ahead and play on the vt50. If you are serious about your game then I recommend the Asus vh236h monitor or any other monitor with better input lag, check the shoryuken forum thread.
Edited by Famouss - 11/18/12 at 3:31am
post #7647 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by scirica View Post

Makes perfect sense. I truly enjoyed viewing the VT50 at Magnolia, but my ISF guy is telling me to go Samsung. I have read that Samsungs have more detail and "pop" (how's that for subjective!). However, my number 1 reason for going from LED to Plasma is for deep blacks and the best off axis viewing. I think the VT50 is my best bet as I will quickly notice any deficiency in black levels. Magnolia demo'd The Dark Knight for me on the 65" VT50 and I loved it (I've watched the first 15 minutes many times on my LED (Samsung UN60D7000)

Really this is true depending on your perspective.

I've owned both a E8000 and two VT50's. In retrospect the E8000 is all around a much better TV. Even a VT50 paired with an Onkyo NR818 is completely equal to the E8000/7000.

The black level argument is so over-blown it's really the *only* thing the VT50 does better than anyone else.

Ask yourself these questions... in order.

1. Do you watch in total darkness? I mean absolutely NO lights on, and do you do this all the time?
If answer is no, then the black levels don't matter between any of the TOP tv(s). Period.

If you said "yes", keep going.

2. Do you watch ONLY blu-ray material?
If answer is no, the VT50 has faults here too. The TV50 is basically a computer monitor. It has little to NO video processing worth mentioning to help with a cable/IPTV or satellite. Thus other TVs will look MUCH better in this area. Samsung for example will just school the Panasonic here.

*ignore* the video purists in here who say you should watch exactly what you feed the TV. It's 2012 reality is 99% of most material everyone watches is NOT bluray. So the pursit view is just utter non-sense unless all you watch is bluray. FInd a store a E8000/7000 sitting next to a VT50 with a NON pristine source on both TVs, and just slightly tweak the Samsung, say turn on auto noise reduction, and a sharpness setting of 10 or 15. And tell me which one looks better. Then try this on the Panasonic... If you read back in this thread (and other forums), basically everyone who has seen this scenario in person has said the Samsung looks much better. Because it does...

So far this year I have had a Rev 1. VT50 an E8000 and a Rev 2 VT50. In retrospect the better all around panel is the E8000/7000. I even paired my VT50 with a NR-818 and it's still not quite as good. The image processing in the Samsung is very good, even better than what's in the NR818.

After trying a bunch of TVs, I wouldn't re-purchase the VT50 (or even the E8000). I'd even take a good offer on my VT50 if someone wanted it here in local KC (it's basically a perfect Rev 2 VT50, no banding). It's fully calibrated to BT 1886 gamma and 709 color space, I'll even come and do a full cal at your house for day/night modes.

Now if all I did was production type TV editing and work similar, and only viewed Bluray I would get the VT50 for sure. It's an excellent monitor. I'm not sure where you fall into the chain here, but don't let all of the videophiles/purists in here sway your decision, especially if it's solely based on black levels.

Lots of mis-information in this thread... also basically NONE of the reviews compare cable/IPTV sources between TVs. They all use bluray and most reviews assume you live in a cave.
post #7648 of 13462
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiGGy View Post

Really this is true depending on your perspective.
I've owned both a E8000 and two VT50's. In retrospect the E8000 is all around a much better TV. Even a VT50 paired with an Onkyo NR818 is completely equal to the E8000/7000.
The black level argument is so over-blown it's really the *only* thing the VT50 does better than anyone else.
Ask yourself these questions... in order.
1. Do you watch in total darkness? I mean absolutely NO lights on, and do you do this all the time?
If answer is no, then the black levels don't matter between any of the TOP tv(s). Period.
If you said "yes", keep going.
2. Do you watch ONLY blu-ray material?
If answer is no, the VT50 has faults here too. The TV50 is basically a computer monitor. It has little to NO video processing worth mentioning to help with a cable/IPTV or satellite. Thus other TVs will look MUCH better in this area. Samsung for example will just school the Panasonic here.
*ignore* the video purists in here who say you should watch exactly what you feed the TV. It's 2012 reality is 99% of most material everyone watches is NOT bluray. So the pursit view is just utter non-sense unless all you watch is bluray. FInd a store a E8000/7000 sitting next to a VT50 with a NON pristine source on both TVs, and just slightly tweak the Samsung, say turn on auto noise reduction, and a sharpness setting of 10 or 15. And tell me which one looks better. Then try this on the Panasonic... If you read back in this thread (and other forums), basically everyone who has seen this scenario in person has said the Samsung looks much better. Because it does...
So far this year I have had a Rev 1. VT50 an E8000 and a Rev 2 VT50. In retrospect the better all around panel is the E8000/7000. I even paired my VT50 with a NR-818 and it's still not quite as good. The image processing in the Samsung is very good, even better than what's in the NR818.
After trying a bunch of TVs, I wouldn't re-purchase the VT50 (or even the E8000). I'd even take a good offer on my VT50 if someone wanted it here in local KC (it's basically a perfect Rev 2 VT50, no banding). It's fully calibrated to BT 1886 gamma and 709 color space, I'll even come and do a full cal at your house for day/night modes.
Now if all I did was production type TV editing and work similar, and only viewed Bluray I would get the VT50 for sure. It's an excellent monitor. I'm not sure where you fall into the chain here, but don't let all of the videophiles/purists in here sway your decision, especially if it's solely based on black levels.
Lots of mis-information in this thread... also basically NONE of the reviews compare cable/IPTV sources between TVs. They all use bluray and most reviews assume you live in a cave.

This is a great response and gives me more data to consume before making this decision. However, I contend that your #1 and #2 qualification questions don't work in all cases, mine being one of them. There is a middle ground, that being one where the owner would rank viewing modes in level of importance. For example, I do watch Directv, blu-rays, etc in daylight, however, my serious viewing and what I want to experience as my top priority is blu-rays played on my Oppo 93 at night in "perfect" viewing conditions to experience the best movie experience possible in my home. Watching shows on Directv is a more "passive" experience for me and therefore I'm not a critical viewer at that time.

I hope that makes sense. Between your well thought out response combined with ACTUAL side by side experience with both of these panels (and the experience of Jeff Meier to boot) it would seem that the E8000/E7000 is the better choice. My homework is to do as you suggest and see both of these side by side calibrated correctly. That may be easier said than done!

Thanks SIGGy...I really appreciate this!
post #7649 of 13462
All that said, the VT50 is the best flat panel for PQ on the market today. Would be hard pressed to find a review that suggests otherwise. Rarely is there such a consensus. On the other hand, I guess it isn't very good. Right?

Note this is a VT50 OWNER'S thread. It isn't a "Thread crap on the VT50" thread......
post #7650 of 13462
Sorry, no one is saying the VT50 isn't a great panel, me included. Using the forum as intended, to get good first-person feedback before making a purchase decision. Relax.
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