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2.1, what about the .1

post #1 of 47
5/1/12 at 10:31am
Thread Starter 
How do you match a sub to your speakers?

I am considering buying a sub for my second system and am not sure what would be the best fit. My current speakers are the Dali Mentor 5.

It is powered by a NAD C372. (150 watts)

This is just a 2 channel set up.
What do I look for?

Should the sub be the same wattage? Should it be double or more?
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post #2 of 47
5/1/12 at 10:47am
Assuming I goggled the right picture (confirm this), your amp does not appear to have a dedicated subwoofer line out. So you'll need to either get a sub that (a) has L/R RCA inputs that can connect to your pre-out 2 jacks or (b) a sub with speaker level line outs that can be run to your B speaker outputs on the amp. You would then set your sub crossover to the low frequency roll off of the Mentors, which looks to be around 43hz according to the manufacturer specs.

How much SPL output you need is dependent on your room size and how loud you listen to the speakers. Then the sub, the size of the driver, the quality of the driver, sealed vs ported sub designs, and the amplifier all are factors in how much output the sub has.

Your best bet would be to read this post and then seek recommendations on the AVS subwoofer forum. Would also help to let them know the information you specified here, and maybe even what kind of music you listen to. It's best to seek recommendations there because of the many Internet direct subwoofer retailers that provide great values (e.g. HSU Research, Rythmik, SVS, Seaton Sound, and JTR). Typically, the ID subs are so much lower in cost than traditional speaker manufacturers that they are comparable to such subs that are half off MSRP.
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post #3 of 47
5/1/12 at 10:51am
It's usually recommended to choose a sub according to the size of your room. You might want to narrow down your search to a few brands and contact them directly for suggestions. If you post your room size and budget you should get plenty of suggestions either here or in the subwoofer section.
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post #4 of 47
5/1/12 at 11:11am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by holt7153 View Post

It's usually recommended to choose a sub according to the size of your room. You might want to narrow down your search to a few brands and contact them directly for suggestions. If you post your room size and budget you should get plenty of suggestions either here or in the subwoofer section.

Thanks. The room is 24X19.

I can pay up to $3,000 or so but would like to be around $1,500 as the speakers are only $3,500.
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post #5 of 47
5/1/12 at 11:23am
I disagree with holt7153. If you want the best recommendations you can get, you should create a post in the AVS subwoofer forum. There's a reason it's called the "Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers" forum A lot of the sub enthusiasts do not read the 2 channel audio thread, and a lot of 2 channel audio people aren't interested in subs.
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post #6 of 47
5/1/12 at 11:54am
If you have the skills and tools to do woodwork, you should ask in the DIY speakers section here. For $3k, you'll get a lot more DIY than you will off the shelf.

If this is only for music, you'll only need 30Hz extension as there is almost never anything below that.

As stated, you'll also need a xover to roll off your mains for best performance.
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post #7 of 47
5/1/12 at 12:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I disagree with holt7153. If you want the best recommendations you can get, you should create a post in the AVS subwoofer forum. There's a reason it's called the "Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers" forum A lot of the sub enthusiasts do not read the 2 channel audio thread, and a lot of 2 channel audio people aren't interested in subs.

I didn't see your post until after mine so I certainly wasn't correcting any of your advice, and I did suggest the subwoofer forum to the OP.
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post #8 of 47
5/1/12 at 12:50pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I disagree with holt7153. If you want the best recommendations you can get, you should create a post in the AVS subwoofer forum. There's a reason it's called the "Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers" forum A lot of the sub enthusiasts do not read the 2 channel audio thread, and a lot of 2 channel audio people aren't interested in subs.

I had this exact post there for 4 days with no response so I copy and pasted it here.

Instantly great replies.

That is a dead forum. I changed the thread I had started there so as not to duplicate.
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post #9 of 47
5/1/12 at 1:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Assuming I goggled the right picture (confirm this), your amp does not appear to have a dedicated subwoofer line out. So you'll need to either get a sub that (a) has L/R RCA inputs that can connect to your pre-out 2 jacks or (b) a sub with speaker level line outs that can be run to your B speaker outputs on the amp. You would then set your sub crossover to the low frequency roll off of the Mentors, which looks to be around 43hz according to the manufacturer specs.

How much SPL output you need is dependent on your room size and how loud you listen to the speakers. Then the sub, the size of the driver, the quality of the driver, sealed vs ported sub designs, and the amplifier all are factors in how much output the sub has.

Your best bet would be to read this post and then seek recommendations on the AVS subwoofer forum. Would also help to let them know the information you specified here, and maybe even what kind of music you listen to. It's best to seek recommendations there because of the many Internet direct subwoofer retailers that provide great values (e.g. HSU Research, Rythmik, SVS, Seaton Sound, and JTR). Typically, the ID subs are so much lower in cost than traditional speaker manufacturers that they are comparable to such subs that are half off MSRP.

Correct, I do not have a sub out.

I do have a second set of speakers that use the B out already. I play both together as I like the sound best this way.

So I would need a sub with RCA in from the pre out 2.
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post #10 of 47
5/1/12 at 1:10pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post

If you have the skills and tools to do woodwork, you should ask in the DIY speakers section here. For $3k, you'll get a lot more DIY than you will off the shelf.

If this is only for music, you'll only need 30Hz extension as there is almost never anything below that.

As stated, you'll also need a xover to roll off your mains for best performance.

thanks but not an option
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post #11 of 47
5/1/12 at 1:26pm
Some powered subwoofer designs include speaker-level inputs and outputs. They're designed so the subwoofer goes between the amp and the L & R speakers. The sub's builtin crossovers extract the low frequencies for the sub so that the amp driving the main speakers no longer has to spend most of its power driving their woofers. The amp sees a high impedance (due to the subwoofer's crossover) at low frequencies instead of a low impedance (due to driving the woofers directly). This can be quite effective in improving the sound that you hear.

Then you can start considering all of the other ways available to improve that listening experience!

Many people prefer putting active crossover circuitry between the preamp and the amp, for example, which can provide a line-level signal to drive the subwoofer and avoids sending any low frequencies to the amp, but that additional expense can be postponed.
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post #12 of 47
5/1/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

I had this exact post there for 4 days with no response so I copy and pasted it here.

Instantly great replies.

That is a dead forum. I changed the thread I had started there so as not to duplicate.

Well, it's not a dead forum. There's much, much more activity than here.

Probably the title didn't draw people into read it. And if you provide the information in this post as well, typically you'll get plenty of response.

If you want to follow up your original post with another one and bump it to the top, and edit the title, I would imagine it would get lots of attention.
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post #13 of 47
5/2/12 at 1:05am
Generally two subs are better than one as it evens out the bass response across the room.

My 2cents.
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post #14 of 47
5/2/12 at 2:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I disagree with holt7153. If you want the best recommendations you can get, you should create a post in the AVS subwoofer forum. There's a reason it's called the "Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers" forum A lot of the sub enthusiasts do not read the 2 channel audio thread, and a lot of 2 channel audio people aren't interested in subs.

The subwoofer section is a dangerous place to go...

you go in there with a $300 budget and you'll be leaving with $3000 budget!

lol anyways to the op you would need a sub whose amp has the L/R inputs/outputs. You should see if anyone on this forum is near you and could give you a demo of their subs to see which you like.
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post #15 of 47
5/2/12 at 8:28am
You've got a fairly large room, and for 2-channel listening I would recommend 2 subs that have a 12" or larger driver. The 2 subs will provide more flexibility in set-up, and IMO a better overall sound.

Here are just a few good options (priced as a pair, including shipping)...

An option at $1,000...

Epic Legend
http://www.epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html

Several options around the $1,200-$1,550 level...

SVS SB12-NSD
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/se.../dual-sb12-nsd

Emotiva X-Ref 12
http://shop.emotiva.com/collections/...roducts/xref12

HSU VTF-3 Mk IV (black satin only)
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-3mk4.html

At a bit higher level (around $2K) there is the Rythmic F-12
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12.html

I think any of these options will do a fine job providing quality bass for your set-up and intended use, and most of the options are within your desired $1,500 level.
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post #16 of 47
5/2/12 at 10:09am
One question you should ask yourself is what do you hope to gain from the subwoofer? Without a receiver with bass management, you can only use the sub to add on to the bottom of the frequency response range where your speakers are not producing bass, not improve on the bass response your speakers already produce. For example, since your speakers go down into the 40hz range, if you want to improve the bass from 60hz on down, you would need a receiver with bass management because it has a high pass filter to cut off the speakers at 60hz so that they are properly integrated with the sub.

Ported subs in the $1500 budget range will not have quite the same SQ for music as the better sealed options. Below $1500, the Rythmik sealed subs are generally considered on the AVS subwoofer forum to have the best SQ for music in that $1500 range and below. Dual subs does make sense for smoothing in room frequency response. Look at the different F12 and F15 models that Rythmik has. Here's the owners thread. You should check with them to see what size/output you need for your room.

While the X-Ref 12 is supposed to have good SQ, I'd avoid it since it's frequency response plummets below 30hz. See this review http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/s...ofers/x-ref-12. The SVS SB12 is supposed to be very nice, but the Rythmiks get more testimonials as great for music, and they offer more models.

If you want the best sounding sub you can get for under $3000, the Seaton Submersive tends to be the most recommended on the subwoofer forum. Not a fancy website, but each one is made to order. Here's the owners thread.
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post #17 of 47
5/2/12 at 11:11am
Sadly, neither of the brands of sub recommended by cel4145 seem to include the crossover networks needed for them to be well integrated with existing speakers. I see only 4 posts for speaker-level connections. For proper integration, you need a subwoofer which has a plate amp with 8 binding posts: 2 pairs for Left and Right amp connections in, and another 2 pairs for connecting out to the Left and Right speakers. The builtin crossover will extract the low frequencies for the subwoofer and pass only the higher frequencies to the main speakers. Of course one disadvantage is that you'll probably have lots of speaker wires running all around the room once you've found the correct placement for the subwoofer.

SVS and Velodyne are well-regarded companies which produce subwoofers with appropriate crossovers. I'm sure there are others.
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post #18 of 47
5/2/12 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The builtin crossover will extract the low frequencies for the subwoofer and pass only the higher frequencies to the main speakers. Of course one disadvantage is that you'll probably have lots of speaker wires running all around the room once you've found the correct placement for the subwoofer.

Are you sure? The SVS models I have seen don't have the extra speaker posts that you describe. They have XLR and RCA. Now I think it might work to run the main preout from the amp to the XLR inputs, set it to high pass, and then run it back to the amplifier using the XLR out, and it would have that effect. (best to talk with SVS first, or ask in the SVS owners thread in the subwoofer forum).

Meanwhile, a lot of subs that have those extra set of speaker level pass through connections do not have a high pass filter. Be sure to check for that on any speaker model. For example, I'm fairly certain that this Velodyne EQ-Max only filters the signal going to the sub.
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post #19 of 47
5/2/12 at 5:17pm
Check out REL subwoofers. They will hook up right along with your speakers (same terminals) and are very easy to blend.
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post #20 of 47
5/2/12 at 7:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mnilan View Post

Check out REL subwoofers. They will hook up right along with your speakers (same terminals) and are very easy to blend.

I just looked at half a dozen models on their website, and they don't even seem to put speaker level inputs on their models any more, much less outputs.

To help the OP, you guys might want to provide recommendations on current subwoofer models

Eljr, you really need to be seeking recommendations in the sub forum LOL
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post #21 of 47
5/3/12 at 9:38am
Eljr you need to post this in the subwoofer section of the Forum.
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post #22 of 47
5/3/12 at 11:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

Are you sure? The SVS models I have seen don't have the extra speaker posts that you describe.

You're right. I can only guess that when I did a web search the pages I was looking at were for models that are no longer available

*sigh*
Maybe adding a Dayton Plate Amp to a passive subwoofer would be an option.
http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php...ith-boost.html

As others have said, though, this discussion should be in the subwoofer forum.
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post #23 of 47
5/3/12 at 1:31pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cel4145 View Post

I just looked at half a dozen models on their website, and they don't even seem to put speaker level inputs on their models any more, much less outputs.

To help the OP, you guys might want to provide recommendations on current subwoofer models

Eljr, you really need to be seeking recommendations in the sub forum LOL

Well, you guys convinced me to forget about it.

Just confirm that I need an amp with a sub out in order to really make a difference. Correct?
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post #24 of 47
5/3/12 at 2:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Well, you guys convinced me to forget about it.

Just confirm that I need an amp with a sub out in order to really make a difference. Correct?

Not necessarily. Depends on what you are trying to accomplish and what features the amp has.
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post #25 of 47
5/3/12 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Well, you guys convinced me to forget about it.

Just confirm that I need an amp with a sub out in order to really make a difference. Correct?

That is, by far, the easiest solution to manage with modern equipment.

Next is the discussion about whether a high quality audio/video receiver is appropriate or if you should invest in one of the relatively rare 2.1 channel amps. I suggest searching the Forum for appropriate threads. There are people with very strong opinions on both sides of the argument. I.e. it is a horse which has been beaten to death repeatedly but still continues to rise from the grave.

You will have to decide for yourself which you prefer.
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post #26 of 47
5/3/12 at 5:11pm
This is a passive subwoofer - and it is big
http://www.chasehometheater.com/inde...art&Itemid=135

Another option, and I know your NAD may be special to you -
Outlaw stereo receiver, with sub out and bass management.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/rr2150.html
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post #27 of 47
5/4/12 at 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

Just confirm that I need an amp with a sub out in order to really make a difference. Correct?

No. Not IMO and IME even remotely true in your situation.

It looks like this document has escaped many people's attention:

http://nadelectronics.com/download.p...guage%20Manual

"...the preamplifer section can be separated from the power amplifi er for easy upgrades or adding ancillary equipment."

First off, the worst way to implement a sub is to just add a powered sub to your system, but even just doing this can provide a major sound quality advantage. The sub extends the bass range of your system but does not take a load off of your existing speakers. Still potentially a strong audible benefit.

This call depends on what your upper range speakers are. Quick scan of the thread does not seem to reveal that important fact.

Secondly, since you seem to have a separateable preamp and power amp, in your integrated amp you are free to implement your sub the best possible way, which involves having a separate power amp for your sub *and* electrically splitting the signal so that your upper range speakers don't see the deep bass that your sub is there to handle.

Your functionally separate preamp and power amp section allow you to take the signal wires that come out of your preamp section and plug them into the inputs of an electronic crossover, and then plug the signal wires going to your existing power amp section, and plug them into the outputs of the electronic crossover.

Right now those preamp-to-power-amp wires are short little jumpers, per pictures of your integrated amp.

The electronic crossover may be part of the sub which would then have its own power amp, or it may be a separate component that you buy.

You've got options, IME good options!
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post #28 of 47
5/4/12 at 7:35am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

No. Not IMO and IME even remotely true in your situation.

It looks like this document has escaped many people's attention:

http://nadelectronics.com/download.p...guage%20Manual

"...the preamplifer section can be separated from the power amplifi er for easy upgrades or adding ancillary equipment."

First off, the worst way to implement a sub is to just add a powered sub to your system, but even just doing this can provide a major sound quality advantage. The sub extends the bass range of your system but does not take a load off of your existing speakers. Still potentially a strong audible benefit.

This call depends on what your upper range speakers are. Quick scan of the thread does not seem to reveal that important fact.

Secondly, since you seem to have a separateable preamp and power amp, in your integrated amp you are free to implement your sub the best possible way, which involves having a separate power amp for your sub *and* electrically splitting the signal so that your upper range speakers don't see the deep bass that your sub is there to handle.

Your functionally separate preamp and power amp section allow you to take the signal wires that come out of your preamp section and plug them into the inputs of an electronic crossover, and then plug the signal wires going to your existing power amp section, and plug them into the outputs of the electronic crossover.

Right now those preamp-to-power-amp wires are short little jumpers, per pictures of your integrated amp.

The electronic crossover may be part of the sub which would then have its own power amp, or it may be a separate component that you buy.

You've got options, IME good options!

thank you very much

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBSS500

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/all-pr...-gloss-pr.html

so you feel both these would add something to my system?
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post #29 of 47
5/4/12 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eljr View Post

thank you very much

http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=PBSS500

http://www.hideflifestyle.com/all-pr...-gloss-pr.html

so you feel both these would add something to my system?

Of many possible choices. Yeah, get at least a very good 12" sub.

I'm a lot more comfortable building subs than buying them, but someone gave me a Paradigm 12" powered sub that I use all the time.
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post #30 of 47
5/4/12 at 8:58am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by arnyk View Post

Of many possible choices. Yeah, get at least a very good 12" sub.

I'm a lot more comfortable building subs than buying them, but someone gave me a Paradigm 12" powered sub that I use all the time.

are these both easily connectable to attain the optimal desired effect?

on the Dali, how would make the connections?
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