Pioneer Steps Up Elite AVRs - Page 4

Originally Posted by Prietz0r

At first Walkamo, thanks for the clarification, I am going to ask/answer your question here below if you can give me some feedback on them would be great!


Well Chris thanks for this answer, you're perfectly clear there and it is more than true what your saying about adding new features. But there is a but, if we compare Pioneer with the competition like Marantz, Denon and Onkyo with their Firmware updates, they are adding features sometimes what Pioneer does not. --- I agree with you and will continue to ask that we begin offering feature firmware updates.


I am sorry to tell you this, but I just don't believe this This is purely a Marketing speech(And yes I know when it is that I work for one of the biggest US. Based Computer manufactures), at my work we as Techies call is MBS(Marketing Bull Sh*t). I am certainly that all of the 'new' features in the newest app is perfectly usable for the previous and even the generation before that A/V receivers. Maybe there are a little nuances in some sort, but if the app 'detects' that it is used with a A/V receiver which does not support a certain feature it just shouldn't show it and work with the other features without any problem. The problem in this is the following, the old application is not supported anymore and by that I mean that there are no new version coming out anymore for new OS versions of the mobile devices(no support for newer Android versions or iOS versions) which make the A/V receivers as disposable as a plastic bag you got from your supermarket! If I can't 'manage' my A/V receiver not anymore whenI buy a new mobile device or upgrade my Android/iOS version that would be very bad thing in my eyes. Pioneer should take Panasonic for a example how it should be. --- I can honestly tell you that the answer I gave is the answer I receive when I ask the question to our software engineers. These are people I trust. They have no reason to mislead me.

Exactly the same thing you said last year When can you tell more about this ? I just don't know anything yet past this year. Our first meeting regarding next years products is in June....


Okay this means that there is no sub EQ for the new products ? And no schedule yet for when there will be any form of this ? And what about a individual X-over instead of the prehistoric overall X-over setting we have in all Pioneers ever sold ? I will not know what is being planned for future products until our meeting in June.. I can tell you that I have/will ask for updates to MCACC at that time (I have been asking for quite some time).


Well the problem is you appear only to be available and visible when new products are launched, but you're never there when there are owners with questions about problems which are not solved or even never will be solved because Pioneer is not listening to it's customers like they should.

Please understand that I do visit the forums on a regular basis, however I do not post that often. Just because I do not post a response does not mean that I don't read about a concern and send a note off to Japan. I just don't have the time. Of course I visit more frequently when we announce new products, however it is not to build hype or anything. Just to see what everyone is saying.


Well I am hoping that Chris will give me/us some more insight

Originally Posted by Walkamo


Thanks for the note Stuart...

I am first and foremost an AV enthusiast....

I have no problem in taking criticism on these forums about our products. What I don't like is that when I do answer a question honestly (Like the iContolAV backwards compatibility question), I am told that I am not being honest.

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by Walkamo

Thanks for the note Stuart...

I am first and foremost an AV enthusiast....

I have no problem in taking criticism on these forums about our products. What I don't like is that when I do answer a question honestly (Like the iContolAV backwards compatibility question), I am told that I am not being honest.

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by Prietz0r

At first Walkamo, thanks for the clarification, I am going to ask/answer your question here below if you can give me some feedback on them would be great!


Well Chris thanks for this answer, you're perfectly clear there and it is more than true what your saying about adding new features. But there is a but, if we compare Pioneer with the competition like Marantz, Denon and Onkyo with their Firmware updates, they are adding features sometimes what Pioneer does not.


I am sorry to tell you this, but I just don't believe this This is purely a Marketing speech(And yes I know when it is that I work for one of the biggest US. Based Computer manufactures), at my work we as Techies call is MBS(Marketing Bull Sh*t). I am certainly that all of the 'new' features in the newest app is perfectly usable for the previous and even the generation before that A/V receivers. Maybe there are a little nuances in some sort, but if the app 'detects' that it is used with a A/V receiver which does not support a certain feature it just shouldn't show it and work with the other features without any problem. The problem in this is the following, the old application is not supported anymore and by that I mean that there are no new version coming out anymore for new OS versions of the mobile devices(no support for newer Android versions or iOS versions) which make the A/V receivers as disposable as a plastic bag you got from your supermarket! If I can't 'manage' my A/V receiver not anymore whenI buy a new mobile device or upgrade my Android/iOS version that would be very bad thing in my eyes. Pioneer should take Panasonic for a example how it should be.

Exactly the same thing you said last year When can you tell more about this ?


Okay this means that there is no sub EQ for the new products ? And no schedule yet for when there will be any form of this ? And what about a individual X-over instead of the prehistoric overall X-over setting we have in all Pioneers ever sold ?


Well the problem is you appear only to be available and visible when new products are launched, but you're never there when there are owners with questions about problems which are not solved or even never will be solved because Pioneer is not listening to it's customers like they should.


Well I am hoping that Chris will give me/us some more insight

Originally Posted by ss9001

Hi Steve, please read the private message I sent you before I posted my response...

Thanks,

Chris Walker

Originally Posted by purdyd

Because the answer doesn't make sense so either you are being dishonest or not being told the truth

I have downloaded the icontrolav2 app and I could not find any feature in it that wasn't on the sc55

It added control of some features that exist that you could only control through the remote or had to program through the rs232 interface or though the Ip control protocol

And again, there is nothing to prevent you from adding features that aren't supported in older receivers, you just gray them out, the app already know what type of receiver you have

In fact that is probably the only reason you can't use it with the sc57 because it detects your receiver and says it can't be used

How about just taking that portion of the icontrolav2012 code out?

In fact I controlav, the old version, works fine with my sc55 as you expect from the fact the ip commands are the same as you can see from the below documents

So I don't even understand why the sc37 won't work with icontrolav2


http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...Models_8.6.xls

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/St...C-37-RS232.pdf

Want to bet on the sc6x ip format document?

Originally Posted by Walkamo


I can assure you that there is more to it than just IP commands.

Most of it has to do with the firmware in the AVR. Many of the items in that are displayed in iContolAV are polled from the AVR, including DLNA DMC items..

I can assure you that it is more expensive to create a new app every year instead of just updating the current one..

I am more than happy to ask for exact details when I am in Japan in June.

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by purdyd

As far as I can tell, it is as simple as the ip commands and staus, it is not a one way communication

Those documents include feedback from the receiver including the data from hmg

I am guessing you can tell from this telnet session port 23, with the sc55 what is playing the rest of the data is what is scrolling across the receiver screen

This is exactly the info you that is exchanged with icontrolav port 8102

And seriously, the whole program is not rewritten every year, especially for the 2012 version

Originally Posted by Walkamo


Of course not, however maintaining 4 apps is not as cost effective and maintaining one...

Like I said I am more than happy ask specifics when I am in Japan.. I can only tell you that I have been told by people I trust that it is not that simple.. Otherwise they would do it.....

Chris Walker
Pioneer Electronics

Originally Posted by purdyd

I appreciate you asking the question, i remain extremely skeptical of the answer, you can't even mention one new feature in icontrol2012 that isn't supported in the sc57

Yes, the obvious solution is one app, just don't disable operation of previous receivers in icontrolav2012

Of course if there is anything specific, that requires a firmware upgrade, I would say, why not update the firmware?

An 8 month old $2000 receiver should not be obsolete

So whether it is stupid engineering or just one more tick in the box to get users to upgrade, the result is the same, you've abandoned your high end customers, just like pioneer has done for years

Look icontrolav2 didn't support the sc37, icontrolav2012, doesn't support the sc57, how many years do the engineers keep making the same mistake? I don't think they are that dumb

And like I mentioned, icontrolav runs the sc55

Enough said, thanks for checking in, good luck with the receiver line!

Originally Posted by purdyd

An 8 month old $2000 receiver should not be obsolete

. . .

Look icontrolav2 didn't support the sc37, icontrolav2012, doesn't support the sc57, how many years do the engineers keep making the same mistake? I don't think they are that dumb

Originally Posted by Walkamo


It is for playing back SACD Files over USB. You can download SACD (DFF files) from the below website..

www.2l.no

Originally Posted by cybrsage

Hmmm...with the lack of it on the Pioneers, and the poor features Denon has been starting to push out, it appears Onkyo is the winner this time around.

Originally Posted by Irwinroad

ccotenj gets to add another 4311 convert to the list

Originally Posted by sdrucker

Possibly, but perhaps getting rid of some of those 'room DSPs' might be useful to free up space. With modern DVDs and BluRays having 5.1 or greater mixes, who really needs Jazz Club, Stadium, Rock Club, Wide Screen etc...especially when there's Dolby and DTS modes for 5.1+ music and HT.

Originally Posted by Venomous

Yeah, let's all run out and buy a Yugo, I mean onkyo, instead of a Denon or Yamaha. Onkyos have THEE worst quality control and reliability. Let's not forget how long they have been using the same fascia on their chassis. It's time for a series update on the inside and outside for onkyo..l starting with quality internal craftsmanship.

Originally Posted by WiWavelength

Let me play devil's advocate for a moment.

All of the varied Pioneer iControl apps are still available in the App Store. In other words, previous model year AVRs still have their own versions of iControl. Those previous model year AVRs have not been rendered "obsolete." To say so is really quite disingenuous.

With that in mind, why should Pioneer be expected to maintain backward compatibility with new versions of iControl?

AJ

Originally Posted by ccotenj

yup...

i'm also not quite sure how not having access to the latest iApp makes an avr "obsolete"...

Originally Posted by ss9001


IMO, one always can get a universal remote & be set for 10+ years, no matter what gear you own as long as the mfg stays in business & maintains its code base. Even if they go belly up, you still can control your present gear...it suddenly didn't stop working same is tru for icontrol...the one for your model suddenly didn't go away.

maybe I'm missing something...(not the 1st time)

obviously, different people have different needs that are important to them. my view is that i-apps may be convenient but they aren't core. they are "nice-to-haves"

Originally Posted by Walkamo


Here are some differences

Zone 2 Tone
Zone 2 Balance
Zone 3 Tone
Zone 3 Balance
Virtual Wide
Sound Explorer
Virtual Depth 2 Channel
Sound Retriever for ARC
MHL Content Support

Those are the ones that I can think of right now..

Also, we added around 45 to 70 new IP commands for CI..

Sorry I could not answer your questions any better.... As I said I will get further clarification in June..

Chris Walker

Originally Posted by ccotenj

i'm also not quite sure how not having access to the latest iApp makes an avr "obsolete"...

Originally Posted by cybrsage

Fanbois of the world unite! The only thing we have to lose is our touch with reality, but poor preconceptions to gain! Join together and feel the power of the fanbois!

Originally Posted by johnson636

Not only have they not implemented this type of equalization, they haven't mentioned it as a future possibility. It would be a shame if money was the only reason not to provide sub eq to it's users.

Originally Posted by Venomous

Facts are facts..i have had my share of faulty onkyo equipment and so has many others on this forum. I'll be more than happy to join a hate onkyo fanboi club any time based on my own owners experience, which is hardly positive.

Originally Posted by ss9001

I guess it's too late to edit my post It took too long to reply to you.

Chris, publicly I want to thank you for your PM. Hopefully, we each have a better understanding of each other. I hope there are no hard feelings about my post...just had to finally clear the air and my fingers & keyboard let it fly.

I did send you my comments on what I personally found when adding the SVS audyssey based bass EQ'r to my MCACC setup. Hopefully, they will be helpful when you do your own listening tests with the 4311.

Originally Posted by cybrsage

Until you post real numbers, you are stating an opinion and pretending it is a fact. Support your opinion, post some actual failure rate facts. Until you do, you simply have an unsupported, biased opinion that should be given the same amount of care as any other unsupported, biased opinion. I had a Denon die on me shortly after the warranty ran out and the cost to repair it was close to the original purchase price. According to your loose definition of fact, that means it is a fact that Denon should be avoided due to its quality being horrible and there should be a hater club about it.

So go ahead and post the real facts about Onkyo...since you claim to have facts.

Originally Posted by Venomous

Facts are facts..i have had my share of faulty onkyo equipment and so has many others on this forum. I'll be more than happy to join a hate onkyo fanboi club any time based on my own owners experience, which is hardly positive.

Originally Posted by pochoboy

could you pm me your findings/thoughts or post here what your take was concerning the as-eq1 w/mcacc vs. the 4311 xt32?

Originally Posted by Prietz0r


The problem with this is, yes the older versions are still available yes That is good, but the problem is, those older versions are not going to work correctly on new mobile devices with newer versions of Android or iOS. Only the newer apps were Pioneer is still developing for does.