Upgade Time, WooooHooo. Please help

I'm not sure you will see thousands of dollars worth of improvement in a new a/v receiver and Audyssey is nice but also probably not worth the cost of upgrade. Human ears and an SPL meter make a wonderful combination.

I think you can start out with a new powered subwoofer, like the ones you mentioned, and add it to the Velodyne. For the huge room volume mentioned, one sub of any size will be struggling.

Good calls!


Very old school. Looks like it was on the market in 2001, unsure how old it was then. 12 years is a goodly period of service for an AVR. In that time frame capacitors may dry out, switch contacts may get flakey, thermal degradation may set in on several fronts, etc. If it is fully functional and meets specs today, this would give good marks to Marantz for build quality.



Unsure as to the actual benefits of that.


The upper range speaker selection seems fine. The 805s are still being sold, it seems. A very high quality speaker in its day and not cheap. Kinda limited on the bottom end, but hey, you're doing the right thing and running them with a sub. The surrounds are older but they are surrounds and don't have major demands put on them. Speaker technology moves very slowly as compared to say media formats.


That may or may not be enough subwoofer depending on your taste in bass and whether your townhouse came with touchy neighbors at no extra charge. ;-)


This is where the new tech investments have gone. The 55" plasma kinda sets the pace.


Ironically, matching levels is one of those things that I would think could be done by ear.


The three biggest weaknesses of your current receiver are IMO:

First and foremost, its a connectivity nightmare. It doesn't know about HDMI, heck it doesn't know about CV. It does know about TOSLINK and Coax, but that is about it.

Secondly, it lacks modern features like support for 7.1, modern audio formats for video, and system integration features like Audessy.

Thirdly, it is old enough that it is an open question whether it meets origional specs, or has some dried up capacitors that have turned it into a black hole for deep bass.


My cautious attitude and experiences with hi rez formats notwithstanding, I think that its good to be able to support the best most modern formats that are already on the media that you are playing, particularly if you can do so with mininal actual out of pocket costs. A modern AVR usually does that.


I see the Denon 4311 as being a ton of money for what it is. For example, what's wrong with a Pioneer Elite Sc-55 Sc55? at half the street price? If you go spendy on the receiver you leave only chump change for any other upgrades. Just saying...


Thing is, we know nothing about how your sub and as far as that goes the rest of your speakers are interfacing with your room. If you've got some big notches below 150 Hz due to standing waves or structural absorption, then all the subwoofer in the world may not be able to help you.

Before you jump into the subwoofer battle, maybe you ought to look at what is really happening with bass and everything else in your listening room.

I strongly recommend doing something with your PC or laptop, Room Eq Wizard, and a good inexpensive measurement mic setup. There are current threads and stickys about this topic. This will tell you a lot about the overall performance of your system. It might even point out potential problems with your veteran receiver.

For example, you might find out that a second subwoofer might be a silver bullet. Or, that you need to deal with some nasty slap echoes. Who can tell from thousands of miles and in the absence of any reliable evidence?

The Onkyo 709 has full 7.2 preamp outputs and the room correction software you want.

Second guessing and going the cheaper route can sometimes lead to more expensive upgrades in the future (yeah, I've been there ). I recently switched to XT32 after various Pioneers with MCACC and lesser versions of Audyssey, and to me the difference was substantial. Good luck.

If you're going to upgrade the receiver an idea might be see how your existing systems sounds after running Audyssey. You might be pleasantly surprised at the difference it makes and not necessarily feel the need to spend on further upgrades right away. Luckily for me the upgrade has made my existing system sound considerably better, and has led me to search for additional knowledge concerning room acoustics, speaker placement, treatments, etc. as opposed to blindly throwing more money towards better gear.

That is a very wise idea.

dstew100 you may want to try and get in on the Denon 4311 deal that seems to still be going on from the various vendors.

Bill

I would vote for adding something like the HSU VTF-15H, Epik Empire, or even the Rythmik FV15HP because the 15" drivers would likely have a lot more output (test data on some of these subs is available here). Probably your best configuration option with it is to have the Velodyne nearfield with your new sub up front with your speakers, so that the Velodyne doesn't have to work as hard to produce the same volume at your listening position.

As for Audyssey XT32, one of the big benefits is that it can configure dual subs, whereas as I understand it, regular MultiEQ XT configures dual subs as one sub (it just has two sub inputs). Also, I have seen a few testimonials from people that the XT32 works as well or better for them at EQing the subs than MultiEQ XT with a separate sub EQ device added. Seems worth the difference.

Yes, the AVR will come with it's own setup mic, and you can always add something like this boom stand and this adapter. Both items are available on Amazon as well, and could be a few bucks cheaper if you have Amazon Prime.

There are some people that say that the below 20hz content doesn't make as much difference. It's having solid response down to 20hz that's important. Check out this comparison of different big subs: SHOOTOUT! Epik Empire vs HSU VTF-15H vs CHT CS18.1 vs Rythmik FV15 vs eD A7s-450 (note that is not the high output FV15HP version). They liked the VTF-15H a lot.

I've always been intrigued by the Chase subs, too, based on everything people have said. No reason not to pay them serious attention unless you'd rather have a build in plate amp on your subs.

Look at my tread I started....right above yours ... I can get you that stuff for almost the same price ... All Brand new .. Trust me Klipsch is the way to go for the price !

I have a Elite SC-57. If I could do it all over again, knowing what I know now, I would have went with the Denon 4311.


Agreed. If you decide to upgrade your system go for the 4311.


Again, listen to holt. When/if you skimp out on ANY gear your upgraditus itch will start sooner than later.


I read every post of that thread... Check out post #1218 and beyond. It will help me support my opinion below.


Over the past couple of months I've contemplated soooo many different options in the LFE department.

Check it out. Starting point:

Fathom f212 then
Dual Epik Conquest then
Dual Rythmik FP15HP now
Dual LMS Ultra in a sealed DIY or prefabed box from ED.

That's just me though. Some have mentioned sub-20Hz don't matter. Well it matters to me. Granted, (1) LG Clone and (1) LMS 5400 with ED box would run you about $2,300 shipped, I think you would be more than pleased from a musical and HT perspective. What else can I say, I'm an official LMS fanboy.

Not sure about you, but my goal is to satisfy my itch. My itch is geared more towards the LFE department so it might not suit your tastes, but knowing you have the best in a praticular department satisfies a deep routed mental component to all of this.

Here is the important thing. If you want more, you could simply order another LMS and identical box vs. mix and matching as you are currently doing. Sorry for the long winded response.

BLUF: If you make an upgrade and find yourself wanting (as I am now with my Elite SC-57) then you are only failing yourself and your pocket book...

Denon 4311 and a LG Clone with a pair of LMS Ultras would be killer. There are many many users within this forum that vouch for that without a doubt.

Man, this post seems a bit out of context, but I'll respond to this one too.

I have Klipsch. Their reference series (RF-7II) with other various matching components. They have a very high sensitivity rating and may very well get louder than your B&W, but if I were you I wouldn't rid of those 805's. I'm assuming, based on the rest of your equipment, those are the 805 Matrix edition vs. the Diamonds, but still. B&W = top notch stuff. Don't take offsense to my statement dstew, it's just that the diamonds are something like $4K+ per pair.

A cute turn of phrase with no real meaning other than what your preference is.

Is there any reasoning or relevant facts behind your preference?

Cute?

To answer your question... Audyssey XT32, Specifically being able to EQ multiple subs.

I'm not extremely dissatisfied with my Elite, but given my end goals (in the LFE department specifically) having XT32 would have saved me $$$ from getting a SMS-1, anti-mode or any other external sub EQ.

Yes, the Denon would be my preference based off of my experience. One thing I do love about the Elite is the Android App. It does everything I want it to.

Looks like a pretty solid plan. I'm running a 4311 with dual Rythmiks (sealed E15s) and I'm pretty happy with it. I've heard nothing but great things about the FV15HP.

As far as helping move furniture I'm tied up that weekend (whatever weekend that was ).

I do the same with my wife... Why do women love furniture so much? lol...


I don't have any experience with the Integra's either, so I can't give you any solid feedback. I really haven't heard anything bad about them, then again I haven't researched them to the extent that I have with the 4311.


Let me reiterate that I "contemplated" those options. As much as I would have actually liked to demo all of those products in my listening environment, the logistical nature alone of going through that much equipment in a month or two would seriously get on my nerves. Not to mention the fact that I would have to find buyers for the used equipment. So based on my research I ran through all of that equipment for my setup.

I ultimately decided to go the DIY (actually AIY because I will just be piecing everything together) based on the stellar reputation of similar rigs that many of the (dare I say) more seasoned AVS members have ultimately ended up with. I hear what you are saying about not really having many opportunities to push your system to its peak, but a lot can be said about headroom and being able to scratch that itch when it arises.


Understood. Unfortunately for me, I don't have many options when it comes to placement because my room is so small. (14W x 12L x 8H) I have yet to really experiment with REW or room treatments as well (on my short list), but I know both will make a noticeable difference.


That's Notnyt's. 130db at 10Hz... Respect. Might not be for some people, but I smile just thinking about being able to touch output like that


Again, I never purchased the FV15HP. Honestly, I think you will be more than pleased with that purchase.


I've drawn the same conclusions with my research as well. Do it... Do it...


Ahhh, the ol' WAF. It's a great looking sub regardless of the finish you get. It's significantly larger than you Velodyne though, so be sure to disclaim that to the wifey first.


I researched that TRW Rotary Sub awhile back. I thought I remember the pricing being something like $17K for the purchase and install. Just checked back and now it's around $25K. Pricing out Not's system (LFE only), I assume he paid around:

LMS Subs x 8 = $8K
LG Clone Amps x 4 = $4K
DIY Boxes x 4 = $2K
Misc LFE Components = $3K
Total: $17K

I think I'm being liberal with those #'s and giving more of a worst case scenario.

Maximum acoustic output at 10Hz for the TRW is 115db, compared to 130db from Not's. Primary difference between the two setups, besides sheer output, would be the fact that the LMS setup would be able to accommodate fq's above 40Hz. Guess you can't really pass up the fact that you have to have a large room to accommodate all of those speakers as well...

stew,

Where are you located? Seems to be a used FV15HP for sale here in the forums.

He's in Austin, TX though. $899 seems to be a decent deal, but I bet you could talk him down lower if he doesn't get any bites. Or, at least negotiate shipping into that $899 deal. Can't really beat that.