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Speakers ~$10K for rock, alternative and some pop. Not Jazz or Classical. - Page 8

post #211 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

"I" don't have to verify anything or determine where your goal posts have shifted to. That is logic 101 failure. You made claims. The onus rests squarely on you to support them.


We have zero data and thus nothing about about your system parameters or any correlation to subsequent claims.


...all of which are hypothetical (or worse, frivolous) and have zero to do with your specific/audibility claims about "cheap" parts affecting real loudspeakers as a generality.


Ok and you claimed to have done just that. So where is your data? Please be specific in how these "audible" benefits were correlated, by you. No more links to hypothetical benefits. Tangible ones as shown by your experimentation. Thanks again.

cheers,

AJ

"Hypothetical" benefits, yet they were quite measurable and audible for my own system. No problem.

BTW, still failed to answer a few questions, like where you source your Kef drivers from? And what passive xover do you use for the UniQ driver? Your own of Kef's? If Kef's from which model speaker?

Also VERY CURIOUS why your using a "parts xpress" Bash amp and running your 8" driver active? Why not keep it a passive design and make your own passive xover for it? Why the hybrid? And a sealed hybrid at that.
post #212 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

"Hypothetical" benefits, yet they were quite measurable and audible for my own system.

Yes, that is your claim.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

BTW, still failed to answer a few questions, like where you source your Kef drivers from? And what passive xover do you use for the UniQ driver? Your own of Kef's? If Kef's from which model speaker?

KEF, my own, Q100.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrain96 View Post

Also VERY CURIOUS why your using a "parts xpress" Bash amp and running your 8" driver active? Why not keep it a passive design and make your own passive xover for it? Why the hybrid? And a sealed hybrid at that.

Class D, weight, EQ, price and availability. Hoffmans Iron Law. In real room vs hypothetical response.

None of which applied to the OP, who should go out and listen to speakers with his own music...and decide for himself what to buy. That or base decisions on hypotheses.

cheers,

AJ
post #213 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post


You are going to have to respond same to others, so don't respond to me about keeping it on track when it is others who have taken it off track before me. No one likes a hypocrite.

I still think taking $10K and paying a well respected designer to do a custom set of speakers would be one very potential way to go to get the most for the $$.

I wasn't speaking of you, but rather to you. Ntrain's recommendations have not been within the OP's requirements, plain and simple. You saying his comments are reasonable is why I quoted you, because they do not have merit for this OP in this thread.
post #214 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

I wasn't speaking of you, but rather to you. Ntrain's recommendations have not been within the OP's requirements, plain and simple. You saying his comments are reasonable is why I quoted you, because they do not have merit for this OP in this thread.

So your speaking for the OP now huh? If he has issues with anything he reads he has shown to be able to speak for himself(And he has given no indications of having any issues with opinions, ideas etc posted on his thread). If anything yourself and a few select(same ones) others have posted on this thread soley to question and discredit any opinions and experiences I have because they do not jive with what you read. Time to let others think for themselves.
post #215 of 411
He did think for himself, ntrain. Go back and read where he states he's not interested in DIY or bookshelf speakers, which are all things you recommended. The OP has already spoken, which you've clearly overlooked.
post #216 of 411
if i had 10 grand to invest i would look into a pair of reference 3a grand veena's heres a manufacture that does not use cross overs in their designs.i have a pair of the mm de capo i 's and would not trade them for anythingin their price range they are that good and again this is just my opinion
post #217 of 411
Reading this thread is amuzing. First if I spending $10k I'm only buying what sounds the best to me. For rock music and such, I would want a bit of bite, but not so much its bright. Dynaudio sapphires on the demo/used market come to mind. I'm not saying those are what you should buy, but you could consider them; and other speakers like them. You should audition everything you can. Make up your own mind.
post #218 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


Except the OP does not give a rip about active or DIY. This topic belongs elsewhere, as we should keep the topic focused on the jima4a's wishes.

Jima4a, do find out if you can get out of work obligations and attend RMAF. I'll be attending for sure, as will a bunch of other guys that would enjoy meeting you and hanging out a bit. Keep us posted.

I hope that I can go to the RMAF, be great to meet you all too.

As I've stated, my interest is in towers, not monitors and subs, with primary objective of 2 channel (no sub) and then the ability to use them in HT with sub(s). I understand the advantages of the monitor setup, usually superior for HT (especially). I have built many things in the past including home speakers (three way with 12 inch woofers) and numerous battery chargers for Nicad packs in my cave diving days so I could do DYI but not interested for this. As I stated, later I might take on a DYI subwoofer, but too busy at the moment.

I do appreciate the input and the passion (shows it is a worthwhile hobby), but I am looking for input on towers for my music tastes.

Thanks!
post #219 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by callas01 View Post

Reading this thread is amuzing. First if I spending $10k I'm only buying what sounds the best to me. For rock music and such, I would want a bit of bite, but not so much its bright. Dynaudio sapphires on the demo/used market come to mind. I'm not saying those are what you should buy, but you could consider them; and other speakers like them. You should audition everything you can. Make up your own mind.

Great recommendation. They definitely "rock" with rock music, and they do have that "bite" you mentioned, though it isn't overbearing or anything. I quite liked them for rock music at RMAF.
post #220 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

He did think for himself, ntrain. Go back and read where he states he's not interested in DIY or bookshelf speakers, which are all things you recommended. The OP has already spoken, which you've clearly overlooked.

Actually if you go back over posts after he stated that he wants to stick with towers, I let it be at that. In fact alot of the other posts were directed towards other members on other various topics brought up by other members own questions and thoughts. Again the OP hasn't stated he has had any problems with any of the side posts going on from other members including myself. Again, your trying to speak for the OP, let him do it himself. He seems to be fine with the discussion regardless. In fact rereading the post if you look closely 5 other members were asking questions or posting comments on their own off topic, yet you seemed to lay dormant which shows your obvious issues with me and to top it off this is at least the 4th or 5th post in this thread where you have shown to obviously have a beef with me(and at least one other forum member)directly and nothing to do with AV whatsoever, time to give it a rest. Otherwise why don't you PM me and tell me what your real issue is.
post #221 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I hope that I can go to the RMAF, be great to meet you all too.

CAF is 400 miles closer and 3 months earlier!! (shameless self promotion, I'll be there....handing out free beer like candy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I do appreciate the input and the passion (shows it is a worthwhile hobby), but I am looking for input on towers for my music tastes.

Thanks!

Shame on you for thinking you might know what you want better than someone else.....

cheers,

AJ
post #222 of 411
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

CAF is 400 miles closer and 3 months earlier!! (shameless self promotion, I'll be there....handing out free beer like candy).

cheers,

AJ

Hard not to give that a pretty strong consideration! :-)
post #223 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

CAF is 400 miles closer and 3 months earlier!! (shameless self promotion, I'll be there....handing out free beer like candy).


Shame on you for thinking you might know what you want better than someone else.....

cheers,

AJ

Hey AJ, given the OP's stated preferences so far and if you were hired to do a $10K speaker setup:

1. What else would you ask the OP in regards to needs assessment?
2. Where would you set your profit margin?
3. What would you look at putting together for them from both a design and materials perspective?
post #224 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by jima4a View Post

I hope that I can go to the RMAF, be great to meet you all too.

As I've stated, my interest is in towers, not monitors and subs, with primary objective of 2 channel (no sub) and then the ability to use them in HT with sub(s). I understand the advantages of the monitor setup, usually superior for HT (especially). I have built many things in the past including home speakers (three way with 12 inch woofers) and numerous battery chargers for Nicad packs in my cave diving days so I could do DYI but not interested for this. As I stated, later I might take on a DYI subwoofer, but too busy at the moment.

I do appreciate the input and the passion (shows it is a worthwhile hobby), but I am looking for input on towers for my music tastes.

Thanks!

As fun as RMAF is, it's almost completely worthless for guidance on this kind of thing. All the systems that sound good are in the six figure range and the rooms suck. I would not go to RMAF to shop, but I would go to listen to Opiate on a one hundred thousand dollar stereo.
post #225 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

Hey AJ, given the OP's stated preferences so far and if you were hired to do a $10K speaker setup:

I'd tell him to give me $5k and keep the rest for himself, since that amount simply isn't required to fulfil his acoustic parameters. I have a real job that pays the bills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

1. What else would you ask the OP in regards to needs assessment?
Color.
2. Where would you set your profit margin?
30-40%
3. What would you look at putting together for them from both a design and materials perspective?
A speaker made out of wood + drivers.

You know the routine, smooth/uniform global response, room is friend not enemy, prodigious bass capability for size, low dynamic compression, etc, etc.

cheers,

AJ
post #226 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I'd tell him to give me $5k and keep the rest for himself, since that amount simply isn't required to fulfil his acoustic parameters. I have a real job that pays the bills.


You know the routine, smooth/uniform global response, room is friend not enemy, prodigious bass capability for size, low dynamic compression, etc, etc.

cheers,

AJ

Me likey the sound of that, AJ. Do you have a "full range" tower speaker?
post #227 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

I'd tell him to give me $5k and keep the rest for himself, since that amount simply isn't required to fulfil his acoustic parameters. I have a real job that pays the bills.


You know the routine, smooth/uniform global response, room is friend not enemy, prodigious bass capability for size, low dynamic compression, etc, etc.

cheers,

AJ

So there is no need for a Revel Salon 2 or Status 8T's?
post #228 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

So there is no need for a Revel Salon 2 or Status 8T's?

Buy a sub 3K speaker and spend the remaining to build a dedicated treated listening room. Sure beats any Revel in a normal room. Most DIY guys are poor folks who can't afford the room but with lots of time so they compensate. Most audiophiles spend so much $ on "good" sounding equipments but don't know any better since they don't have much time. Regardless ignorance is bliss but unforgivable.

We need somebody who can afford anything but who is a cheap bastard with a passion to the hobby that prompts him to research daily on the shops and the net. We need someone who isn't too cheap or too lazy to order and audition ID speakers and post unbiased reviews! We need a hero! (not the Kimber kind)
post #229 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Buy a sub 3K speaker and spend the remaining to build a dedicated treated listening room. Sure beats any Revel in a normal room. Most DIY guys are poor folks who can't afford the room but with lots of time so they compensate. Most audiophiles spend so much $ on "good" sounding equipments but don't know any better since they don't have much time. Regardless ignorance is bliss but unforgivable.


I think it's safe to make the assumption that all other things being equal...
post #230 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmichaelf View Post

As fun as RMAF is, it's almost completely worthless for guidance on this kind of thing. All the systems that sound good are in the six figure range and the rooms suck. I would not go to RMAF to shop, but I would go to listen to Opiate on a one hundred thousand dollar stereo.

The problem with RMAF is that it's often a madhouse, very large, near impossible to see everything (much less all the ones you thought you might want to see) and rooms tend to get crowded. Not great for the consumer who wants to get a good feel for the item. The elevators breaking down last year didn't help with a multi-story building where the stairs are a PITA also.
CAF otoh, was big enough where there is plenty to see in 2 days and you can actually sit, listen and ask questions. Much better for the attendee imho.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

Me likey the sound of that, AJ. Do you have a "full range" tower speaker?

Yep. Come to CAF and see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinjuku View Post

So there is no need for a Revel Salon 2 or Status 8T's?

The market decides that, I don't.

cheers,

AJ
post #231 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Buy a sub 3K speaker and spend the remaining to build a dedicated treated listening room. Sure beats any Revel in a normal room.

Based on what psycho-acoustic science? Let's see the factual evidence to back up that claim. Thanks.
post #232 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by psgcdn View Post

Sorry, but looks like an upright casket to me...

Yes, but one with nice veneer...
post #233 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Buy a sub 3K speaker and spend the remaining to build a dedicated treated listening room. Sure beats any Revel in a normal room. Most DIY guys are poor folks who can't afford the room but with lots of time so they compensate. Most audiophiles spend so much $ on "good" sounding equipments but don't know any better since they don't have much time. Regardless ignorance is bliss but unforgivable.

We need somebody who can afford anything but who is a cheap bastard with a passion to the hobby that prompts him to research daily on the shops and the net. We need someone who isn't too cheap or too lazy to order and audition ID speakers and post unbiased reviews! We need a hero! (not the Kimber kind)

Unbiased reviews? There is no such thing my good man. The only way that'd be possible is if someone had Harman's speaker shuffling/level matching system and listened blind without any other human contact during the sessions. He'd then be told which speakers he liked best at the end of the auditioning sessions. With that said, where's the fun in that? Also, if you were that guy you'd have to trust in the person giving you information regarding which speaker you actually heard, as you wouldn't have an actual way of knowing besides what you were told. Bias will always be part of reviews unfortunately. The good news is only you need to be satisfied with your purchase, so only you should be deciding what sounds good and what doesn't. Purchasing based on someone else's opinion is a very bad idea unless you're sure you can return said product for a full refund in the event you do not care for it.

For what it's worth, according to Floyd Toole's research a really good speaker should still be able to give you a good impression of its sound characteristics above the Schroeder Frequency in most rooms. The real problems within a room are below 200-300Hz, and those can be fixed. You can't easily fix a lousy speaker, though (active crossovers don't count for obvious reasons, though that's not to discount their advantages).
post #234 of 411
Just get a list of speakers that have great measurements on-axis & off-axis. Factor in aesthetics, price, fit. Eliminate the ones with bad measurements - like the ones that don't even measure as well as the Infinity P362. Then audition the great ones. You will find that although they won't sound identical, the great accurate speakers will all sound great and you can't lose with any of them.
post #235 of 411
Thread Starter 
Here is the list that I tried to glean from the Thread plus some suggested outside. Many are above budget and only a few are under. I eliminated the monitors on the ones I looked at. There are quite a few that I have not had a chance to look at yet, just thought I post the list.

Aerial Acoustics Model 7Ts
B&W 803D
Danley Synergy horns
Dynaudio Confidence C2
Dynaudio Sapphires
Focal Electra 1028 Be
Focal Electra 1038 Be
JBL Synthesis 1400 Array
Kef 205/2
Kef 207/2
Klipsch P-37F
Klipsch LaScala
Legacy Focus SE
Paradigm Signature 8
Pioneer S-1EX
Reference 3A Grand Veena
Revel Salon 2
Revel Studio 2
Salk Soundscape 8
Thiel CS2.4
Thiel CS3.7
post #236 of 411
That is a very solid list, jima4a. The Salk's, Revel's and Kef's would be my top three, with Dynaudio and Thiel CS3.7 rounding out the top five. The top three choices will sound more similar than not; I cannot see anyone being unhappy with any of them, but YMMV and to each their own.
post #237 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post

With that said, where's the fun in that? Also, if you were that guy you'd have to trust in the person giving you information regarding which speaker you actually heard, as you wouldn't have an actual way of knowing besides what you were told. Bias will always be part of reviews unfortunately.

Ain't fun but you only had to do it once. It's part of the research prior to buying. I can sure trust my wife as she has zero interest in decorating the room or the price tag of my toys. Or I can tell my staff to do it for me. Not an issue, not sure about you guys.
post #238 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJinFLA View Post

Based on what psycho-acoustic science? Let's see the factual evidence to back up that claim. Thanks.

It's not a claim, it's a fact. Check out my living room and imagine your Revel in it. Now imagine an accurate pair of tower under 3K in a dedicated room built for listening. But you're free to believe that spending on the most expensive speaker out there and putting them in your untreated living room is the ultimate setup.
post #239 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

Ain't fun but you only had to do it once. It's part of the research prior to buying. I can sure trust my wife as she has zero interest in decorating the room or the price tag of my toys. Or I can tell my staff to do it for me. Not an issue, not sure about you guys.

I'm pretty confident you don't have all the resources necessary to properly perform or partake in a double blind (or even single blind), level matched bias-free listening comparison, even with your staff's help. Unless, of course, there's some things you haven't told us (like you're really Dr. Sean Olive).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veda View Post

It's not a claim, it's a fact. Check out my living room and imagine your Revel in it. Now imagine an accurate pair of tower under 3K in a dedicated room built for listening. But you're free to believe that spending on the most expensive speaker out there and putting them in your untreated living room is the ultimate setup.

It's time read read Floyd Toole's white papers and books my friend. With that said, of course a dedicated, built from the ground up listening room would be ideal, but what percentage of us can actually accommodate that, really?
post #240 of 411
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuance View Post


For what it's worth, according to Floyd Toole's research a really good speaker should still be able to give you a good impression of its sound characteristics above the Schroeder Frequency in most rooms. The real problems within a room are below 200-300Hz, and those can be fixed. You can't easily fix a lousy speaker, though (active crossovers don't count for obvious reasons, though that's not to discount their advantages).

So you really can't "fix" a bad speaker? Again, can you give us some examples(make/model) of some "bad" speakers?

And you state you can't fix a bad speaker, but the frequencies BELOW 2-300hz can be fixed?

So to sum it up, what your saying is you can't "fix" a bad speaker, but you can "fix" frequencies below 2-300hz, which must also mean that the frequencies above 2-300hz cannot be fixed? LOL!

And speaking of FLoyd Toole, alot of his "research" completely contrasts the finding of other well known individuals on sound reproduction and the effects of the speaker/room relation with people like Bob Carver, Kevin Voeks, John Dunlavy etc..........he has alot of good and useful info, but I notice you lovetossing his name into your posts like he is Jesus of the AV world, LOL! Books only get you so far man.

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