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Why the lack of Full Array + Local dimming? - Page 2

post #31 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome 

I guess you have not looked at the post about Samsung's new 85in local dimming 4k TV? Full array and the reviews say it will be the best TV on the market because of the local dimming,beating out LG and Sony's 84in edge lit 4K tv.
High Samsung officials told HTGURu in december that the 85UNS9 is a Edge Lit Dimming. Till we see some pro/user reviews we won't know for shure what the S9 actually is.
post #32 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

You reaally don,t know anything! LG made the LV9500 to be thier top tv in 2012 and made a lot of them before they decided to go with 3D passive and drop the active LV9500 3D tv.
The LG LV9500 made it to retail on HSN and sold out fast,then sold out on online venders.My gain your loss,no you are not looking for local dimming,just looking to complain!
I guess you have not looked at the post about Samsung's new 85in local dimming 4k TV? Full array and the reviews say it will be the best TV on the market because of the local dimming,beating out LG and Sony's 84in edge lit 4K tv.
So go back to your edge lit tv and give it a hug and be happy,it's still a good tv,just not the BEST!

I really do know a lot.

First of all, I know that high-end TVs don't get put on Home Shopping Network when they are selling well. The LG you bought -- while it's doubtless a fine product was dumped at well below the intended price on HSN. You can be happy about your good fortune (and as I said you ought to). But to keep mistaking this for some sort of robust market for full array TVs is really a huge mistake.

For you to then cite a giant, $20,000+ TV as "proof" of said robust market is weird. That Samsung will sell well under 5,000 units globally this year. In the meantime, Sharp is moving away from its few full array locally dimmed sets and Sony has (it seems) also moved to offer fewer of those lately too.

There is simply no market for the technology. It's used in a handful of prestige/giant products? Great. It should be.

By the way, my TV is not edge lit. It has nearly 2 million "dimming zones". It's pixel-based full array local dimming. I'll let you figure out how it does that.
post #33 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

Just to be clear, "Direct Lit" LCDs are, in fact "full array".

Not exactly. The difference between "full array" and "direct lit" is that "direct lit" has far fewer number of LED in the back.

"Direct lit" TVs simply replaced CCFL with LED light source. That's why "direct lit" LED TVs are thick like older CCFL-lit LCD TVs.
post #34 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really do know a lot.

Humble, aren't we? biggrin.gif
post #35 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogo View Post

I really do know a lot.

First of all, I know that high-end TVs don't get put on Home Shopping Network when they are selling well. The LG you bought -- while it's doubtless a fine product was dumped at well below the intended price on HSN. You can be happy about your good fortune (and as I said you ought to). But to keep mistaking this for some sort of robust market for full array TVs is really a huge mistake.

For you to then cite a giant, $20,000+ TV as "proof" of said robust market is weird. That Samsung will sell well under 5,000 units globally this year. In the meantime, Sharp is moving away from its few full array locally dimmed sets and Sony has (it seems) also moved to offer fewer of those lately too.

There is simply no market for the technology. It's used in a handful of prestige/giant products? Great. It should be.

By the way, my TV is not edge lit. It has nearly 2 million "dimming zones". It's pixel-based full array local dimming. I'll let you figure out how it does that.

Ha! Ha! another plasma guy on the LCD forum to WHINE!
post #36 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Not exactly. The difference between "full array" and "direct lit" is that "direct lit" has far fewer number of LED in the back.

"Direct lit" TVs simply replaced CCFL with LED light source. That's why "direct lit" LED TVs are thick like older CCFL-lit LCD TVs.

Just to be clear, direct lit LEDs are in fact full array. Yes, they have fewer LEDs than "traditional" full array sets because the LEDs are set farther from the panel (and are brighter). But it's absolutely full array. If someone ever built a direct lit. local dimming set, it could have scores of dimming zones. The purpose of "direct lit" sets is that they are stupid cheap to make because they use these pre-assembled light bars instead of edge bars and light guides. They are thick and somewhat ungainly as a result. But they have an awful lot of LEDs. "Traditional" full array uses more because in order to stay thin, it needs to jam the LEDs right up to the panel and therefore the light cannot naturally diffuse. But there are plenty of LEDs on a direct-lit set and they are most certainly full array.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apostate View Post

Humble, aren't we? biggrin.gif

More than you'd think. I was just beating the troll on the snout.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

Ha! Ha! another plasma guy on the LCD forum to WHINE!

Since the forum recommends taking the high road, I won't say to you: "If you had any reading comprehension ability, you would understand that I'm not here to whine, I'm here to help share knowledge." As I said, I won't say that to you.
Edited by rogo - 2/9/13 at 1:12pm
post #37 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome 
Ha! Ha! another plasma guy on the LCD forum to WHINE!
Rogo tends to be neutral so you are making fun of the wrong guy.
post #38 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

Rogo tends to be neutral so you are making fun of the wrong guy.
Funny,Who came onto this site to make fun of local dimming?
By the way,How high can you plasma Guy;s Go? Sorry! My mistake,it should be low!
Edited by 6athome - 2/9/13 at 9:19am
post #39 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

Funny,Who came onto this site to make fun of local dimming?
By the way,How high can you plasma Guy;s Go? Sorry! My mistake,it should be low!

I think you're a bit out of your element here. Rogo is one of the most informed members on this site and generally his predictions and insights concerning the display market are spot-on.

Besides, it doesn't take a crystal ball or a background in the display industry to know that full-array local dimming sets are basically dead in the water. Your LV9500 was an anomaly -- a nice set, indeed, but despite what you say, it was a model that was entirely discontinued and scrapped before it ever hit any major retail chain. The LV9500 IIRC didn't even advertise that it came with active 3D, it was something that had to be unlocked via service menu -- not exactly a model that was ready for prime-time because it was being dumped as LG replaced it with the LW9800. The LW9800 actually made it retail markets. Your LV9500 was a model that LG wanted to get rid of, which is why it was so cheap, pricing was not in line with traditional full-array/local-dimming TV. If your LV9500 had been priced between $2600-$3000, would you still have bought it? I doubt it, which is generally why full-array sets don't do well, because that is the price range they normally occupy.


The Sony HX950 will probably be discontinued by the summer, and the Sharp Elite is hitting EOL status with no word from Sharp on a replacement. That only leaves the 2012 LG LM9600 as the sole available Full-array/LD set, and from what I saw from LG's 2013 lineup, there is no direct replacement for it either.
post #40 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I think you're a bit out of your element here. Rogo is one of the most informed members on this site and generally his predictions and insights concerning the display market are spot-on.

Besides, it doesn't take a crystal ball or a background in the display industry to know that full-array local dimming sets are basically dead in the water. Your LV9500 was an anomaly -- a nice set, indeed, but despite what you say, it was a model that was entirely discontinued and scrapped before it ever hit any major retail chain. The LV9500 IIRC didn't even advertise that it came with active 3D, it was something that had to be unlocked via service menu -- not exactly a model that was ready for prime-time because it was being dumped as LG replaced it with the LW9800. The LW9800 actually made it retail markets. Your LV9500 was a model that LG wanted to get rid of, which is why it was so cheap, pricing was not in line with traditional full-array/local-dimming TV. If your LV9500 had been priced between $2600-$3000, would you still have bought it? I doubt it, which is generally why full-array sets don't do well, because that is the price range they normally occupy.


The Sony HX950 will probably be discontinued by the summer, and the Sharp Elite is hitting EOL status with no word from Sharp on a replacement. That only leaves the 2012 LG LM9600 as the sole available Full-array/LD set, and from what I saw from LG's 2013 lineup, there is no direct replacement for it either.

No! I think it is because guy's like you will buy cheep junk and rave how good it is!
post #41 of 67
Common sense has left the building. If you want to get personal, I also have a TV that has 2 million+ dimming zones and certainly cost me more than $1500, so I have no idea where you're getting this "cheap junk" line from.
post #42 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome 
Funny,Who came onto this site to make fun of local dimming?
By the way,How high can you plasma Guy;s Go? Sorry! My mistake,it should be low!
I bought four flatscreens in my life, all of 'em LCd's (my main TV is a full array local dimming) smile.gif so somebody calling me a Plasma guy is kind of weird confused.gif btw if i had the money i would also own a APLSAM - probably a 500A/M biggrin.gif
post #43 of 67
Quote:
"Funny,Who came onto this site to make fun of local dimming?"

Well, I've been here since 1999 and have never "made fun of local dimming" so I can't even see how this relates to me.

I do thank the people who note my neutrality and my state of being "informed'.

It's also pretty clear that the accusations are quite baseless.
post #44 of 67
rogo 28,621 6athome 0
post #45 of 67
You Plasma guy's have to speak louder! I can't hear you your plasma is buzzzzing too loud! Maybe you should take it off the wall,it is up to high and buzzzzing.
post #46 of 67
Nice way to avoid the legitimate points we've brought up
post #47 of 67
All the years I been on this forum I have wonder why Plasma people come on to the LCD forum and just tell us how bad LCD'S are!
Yes I owned a Plasma and I could not wait to get rid of it. I do not go onto the Plasma forum and rave about LED LCD'S.
I don't tell Plasma people thier TV uses to much power and you can cook marshmellows on them,or how they BUZZZZ! Don't care about plasma,I want to lessen my inpact on the earth with my TV
This debate is geting like the gun law debate! Thier are law's on the books and no enforcement,thus dead laws.In PA you don't have to be a citizen of the US to get a gun permit? Judges in Phily are suppose to gvie former fellons with a gun 5 years,and refuse to do it???
You see I can RANT ON TOO!
post #48 of 67
I think you're being overly-sensitive. When did I, or Rogo, or anyone else for that matter trash LCDs anywhere in this thread? Did you see the thread title? We were simply addressing the question posed in the thread title : "Why the lack of full array + local dimming?" in which Rogo posted information on market realities, never once did he say LCDs were bad or inferior. You're distorting the arguments made in this thread in order to help knock your straw man down. We simply claimed that the market for local dimmers is near-nonexistent, because, well, it is. Just because you bought a clearance model from two years ago and Samsung is making one that's $30,000 doesn't mean the market for full array sets is healthy.

And owning a plasma doesn't bar me from posting in other forum areas. I have four LCDs in my house to a single plasma.
post #49 of 67
OK FATBOY! What is with this quote! If you want to get personal, I also have a TV that has 2 million+ dimming zones and certainly cost me more than $1500,
post #50 of 67
That was in direct response to you accusing me (and everyone else who disagrees with you) of buying "cheap junk" (your words, not mine).
post #51 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome 
OK FATBOY! What is with this quote! If you want to get personal, I also have a TV that has 2 million+ dimming zones and certainly cost me more than $1500,
Only a Plasma has ''2 million dimming zones'' smile.gif
post #52 of 67
What are the chances that there will be NO full array local dimming LCD sets in 2014?

I'll say what a lot of people here won't say.

NO full array local dimming LCD sets would equal LCD is going BACKWARDS picture quality wise.

I don't like LCD. But what I would hate worse would be a world with NO full array local dimming LCD.

Why?

Because if plasma dies that is what I would be FORCED to buy.

Let me ask all of you LCD lovers here: Does it bother you that there are LESS and LESS full array local dimming LCD sets to choose from?

Do you LIKE the trend towards LESSOR quality Edge Lit sets?

Oh by the way--I read all of rogo's posts and he does know everything!
post #53 of 67
Artwood,

Why do you think it will be 2014? Both the Elite and Sony XBR950 have already been discontinued with no replacements which I think means there are no more local dimming sets being manufactured and it is Feb 2013!

I've got a 5 year old Sony XBR5 that looks great, but I do have the upgrade itch since it is 46 inch. And while newer LCDs do have better blacks, they also have glossy screens and IMO have worse off axis viewing than "old school" CCFL backlighting.

Now that the local dimming sets have been discontinued, I must admit that your posts have me thinking that I might need to get plasma in the next year or so because if OLED doesn't materialize then my next set might be worse than my current one!
post #54 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by 6athome View Post

All the years I been on this forum I have wonder why Plasma people come on to the LCD forum and just tell us how bad LCD'S are!

I wonder how someone can be so insecure and so interested in dividing people that you would define someone as a "plasma person". Long ago, I was vehemently opposed to breaking up the flat-panel forum by technology type because I believed it would serve no actual valuable purpose to someone actually shopping for a flat panel who was open minded and would simply serve to allow people to wallow in their own ignorance. Ever since, I've participated much less at AVS. And, boy, was I right.
Quote:
Yes I owned a Plasma and I could not wait to get rid of it. I do not go onto the Plasma forum and rave about LED LCD'S.

I own a plasma and an LCD. When I went to replace my plasma, I shopped both technologies for a year. Clearly, one of us is objective about the two technologies and one of us isn't.
Quote:
I don't tell Plasma people thier TV uses to much power and you can cook marshmellows on them,or how they BUZZZZ!

You can't hear my plasma unless the volume is off and the screen is full white. You can, however, place your hands on it for hours without them getting burned. You can't cook a marshmallow. Oh, and I have posted about its relatively poor power consumption in what I'd estimate is two dozen separate posts. Again, I am clearly objective about the technology, seeking to inform people.
Quote:
Don't care about plasma,I want to lessen my inpact on the earth with my TV

Thanks for helping. I make 6000 kw/hours per year from my solar panels, which are now 7 years old. It's estimated they took about 18 months worth of their energy output to make, so the past 5 1/2 years are all gravy. As will the next 20 years be. In the meantime, my plasma uses about 300 watts and runs about 4 hours per day. I could save 200 watts with an LCD or 0.8 kw/hours. That's about 300 kw/hours per year or 1500 over the lifetime of the TV. It's not nothing, but most people would save far more power by replacing some light bulbs. People who are running incandescent throughout the house really have little claim to "lessening their impact on earth" because they bought an LCD TV. If you've also done that, thanks for helping. The point is, I very much do my part, even though I run a plasma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatuglyguy View Post

I think you're being overly-sensitive. When did I, or Rogo, or anyone else for that matter trash LCDs anywhere in this thread?

Nowhere.
Quote:
never once did he say LCDs were bad or inferior.

It should be noted, I don't believe they are bad or inferior. In fact, I'm aware of the tradeoffs between LCD and plasma and chose viewing angle and price:performance ratio over better brightness, better power consumption, lack of ABL, etc. I've also posted several dozen times in the OLED threads my belief than LCD will continue to dominate in the presence of OLED for at least the next several years.
Quote:
And owning a plasma doesn't bar me from posting in other forum areas. I have four LCDs in my house to a single plasma.

I only own the one LCD, but I will note that I bought the 2012 plasma to replace a 2006 plasma and I doubt very much I'll ever get another plasma. By contrast, I'm almost sure I'll get another LCD. And none of that is an endorsement or criticism of either technology, it's just reality.
post #55 of 67
Hey guys thx for all the input but at this point the technical jargon and emotions are going way over my head. Maybe I can simplify my query:

With the new model year, where can i get the most outstanding 55-60 in.picture for $1500 max?

Older stock is FINE if available and what im really hoping for. I had assumed the full array local dimming thing would be the deal maker but you all would know better than me. Lastly, it would ideally be an amazing performer in a bright room. THANKS!
post #56 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by alohamikel View Post

Hey guys thx for all the input but at this point the technical jargon and emotions are going way over my head. Maybe I can simplify my query:

With the new model year, where can i get the most outstanding 55-60 in.picture for $1500 max?

Older stock is FINE if available and what im really hoping for. I had assumed the full array local dimming thing would be the deal maker but you all would know better than me. Lastly, it would ideally be an amazing performer in a bright room. THANKS![/quote
Vizio use to have full array local dimming led tv that didn't cost alot,but when samsung came out with thier edge lit,I can make a lot more profit,slim led's tv.s every one went to them.
If you wait you might be able to pick up a tv cheep when modles change, That what I did when I pick up my first local dimming tv,the samsung 81f.I paid 1/3 of the price.
post #57 of 67
Wow. Very entertaining thread to read through. I agree full array just didn't financially make sense for these companies who already are losing boatloads of money manufacturing tvs.

I'm one of those few who did pay for full array, but only after swapping out multiple 65VT50s due to dead pixels and abnormally loud buzzing and multiple 65ES8000s for dead pixels and noticeable banding.

I finally won the panel lottery with the Sony 65HX950 on the first try as I got one with no dead pixels, no noticeable banding and no noticeable DSE.

I immediately could see the difference with blacks and contrast with the 65HX950 compared to the 65ES8000 and was still able to get the brighter image that I couldn't get with the 65VT50.

By no means us it a perfect set and I do feel I paid way more than what this set is worth, but in the end the full array provided me with the bright and colorful image of the 65ES8000 but with black levels similar to the 65VT50.

Glad I was able to get this set before it is officially discontinued and removed from the Sony website.
post #58 of 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfogarty5 View Post

Artwood,

Why do you think it will be 2014? Both the Elite and Sony XBR950 have already been discontinued with no replacements which I think means there are no more local dimming sets being manufactured and it is Feb 2013!

I've got a 5 year old Sony XBR5 that looks great, but I do have the upgrade itch since it is 46 inch. And while newer LCDs do have better blacks, they also have glossy screens and IMO have worse off axis viewing than "old school" CCFL backlighting.

Now that the local dimming sets have been discontinued, I must admit that your posts have me thinking that I might need to get plasma in the next year or so because if OLED doesn't materialize then my next set might be worse than my current one!

I wasn't aware the HX950 had gotten the axe along side the Elite. I was told that since the HX929 ha lasted well into 2012 that HX950 was the refresh for 2012/2013. As for 2014 you will find full array (local dimming?) Sharp above 80", Samsung will only offer Full array (local dimming?) in their 85" 4k set. Samsung claims to have software that can produce edge-lit displays that will match plasma and full array contrast and uniformity. The future will tell,so unless Sony can release their Crystal LED or OLED w/Panasonic at an affordable price and stablility I am not sure. I know not all of us on this forum can drop 20-30,000$ on a television. Maybe we should be looking closer to 2017-18 for this technology to be affirdable
post #59 of 67
I, for one, am saddened that full array local dimming appears to be dead in the water. I currently have three sets that I absolutely love: A last generation 60" Elite KURO, a Sony 55" XBR8, and a 60" Sony XBR SXRD. All three of these sets were state of the art when I purchased them. I am now looking to upgrade the SXRD in my basement to something larger, and I'm left with few options. IMHO, the only set that is 70" or larger that has as good of an overall picture as any of my existing three sets is the Sharp Elite. This kind of sucks. While edge lit technology has continued to improve, I truly do believe that flat panel technology as a whole has been somewhat stagnant. You would think all these years later I could easily find superior TV's to my existing sets in every size. Unfortunately, this is not the case.
post #60 of 67
Yeah like everyone already stated, the majority of consumers just want "thin and cheap". And this is exactly what the manufacturers are selling. frown.gif

This is the only local dimming set announced for 2013: (that I could find)

http://www.lg.com/sg/tvs/lg-84LM9600
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