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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 37

post #1081 of 7882
7/19/12 at 4:53pm
Thread Starter 
HDMI video should pass through untouched, 3D or otherwise. The theory that you should connect directly to the TV for video for "better PQ" is really a "purist" notion that doesn't have much relevance in real world setups these days. A modern HDMI receiver shouldn't tamper with the digital video passing through... analog>digital upconversion can be another story, but often even the flaws introduced there (e.g. high freq chroma roll-off) are invisible unless you are looking at test patterns.
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post #1082 of 7882
7/19/12 at 9:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

freakjim -- how'd you get the Ref Level Offsets into your Harmony? Did you find serial codes for the offset settings and then convert to hex, and then "hack" them in?
Any inkling these codes will also work with the 2113?
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post #1083 of 7882
7/20/12 at 2:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

... read several posts suggesting one connect the Blu-Ray deck's HDMI directly to the TV (to bypass the AVR video processing) to achieve better pq. And then connect the BR audio to the receiver separately (digital coax/toslink).

...

Also, neither digital coax nor toslink can carry high def multichannel audio to your AVR - so that's bye-bye to Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD-MA and multichannel PCM with that kind of setup.

Runing your Blu-ray HDMI through your receiver is your best option.
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post #1084 of 7882
7/20/12 at 5:40am
While AVR video circuitry ought not to damage the video signal, there have been enough examples of buggy designs that you can't assume that no damage will happen. You'll have to ask in appropriate forums for people's experience. Some older AVRs and pre/pros can't pass 3D video, which is why some of the more expensive 3D players have dual HDMI outputs -- one for getting video to the display and one for getting audio to the AVR.
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post #1085 of 7882
7/20/12 at 9:29am
Hi, I just bought a Denon AVR-2113 and I am so far quite happy with the buy... however my old crappy dvd player is showing some issues so I want to replace it. I have lots of DVDs from both region 1 and region 2, so it is a big plus if it is possible to unlock different regions on the new "dvd"-player. I would also like to have the possibility of playing higher than cd-quality formats like SACD and AudioDVD. I have found the Pioneer BDP-LX55 fills most of the points on my checklist, plus it is now on a decent discount.

I am wondering two things:

1) Will it be possible for my AVR-2113 to receive the LPCM bitstream signal from this Pioneer blu ray player? if not, does other standards (such as DTS) do the same?.

I have been trying to find info on this but so far I have been getting dizzy from reading without finding any answers.

2) is it really possible to unlock region 1 by using a remote?.

I should say that I really do not need a blu-ray player as I have a PS3 which does a superb job, but I see little point into buying an already obsolete dvd player... but If that's still the best option I will still consider it.

Thanks in advance,

Xair
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post #1086 of 7882
7/20/12 at 9:32am
Oh, another thing, on said AVR-2113, I have been trying to connect my old iPod classic 80 GB, and it connects, shows the denon screen, and I am able to play, pause, forward, etc. But no sound ever comes out. I have tried pressing the "music" button on the remote, and yes, the reciever is indeed on the ipod/USB signal. I tried an iPhone on the same port, with the same cable and it worked without any problem. The same iPod classic works with no problem on my car's stereo (it is a similar modern system where you manage the ipod remotely from the touchscreen of the stereo.

Any ideas?
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post #1087 of 7882
7/20/12 at 9:39am
Dumb question on my part, did you accidentally hit the mute button on the iPod? I do that a lot with my MP3 player.
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post #1088 of 7882
7/20/12 at 11:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
1) Will it be possible for my AVR-2113 to receive the LPCM bitstream signal from this Pioneer blu ray player? if not, does other standards (such as DTS) do the same?.

literally EVERY receiver on the market for the past 2-3 years at least can accept multich PCM over HDMI in addition to decoding all HD audio formats. HDMI audio support is no longer something that consumers need to investigate when purchasing receivers.

the only exception is really direct SACD suport (DSD decoding) or maybe some highly niche formats (like HDCD). But multich PCM, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-MASTER, etc. are all common standards just like regular Dolby Digital or DTS surround decoding 5-10 years ago.
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post #1089 of 7882
7/20/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

HDMI video should pass through untouched, 3D or otherwise... analog>digital upconversion can be another story, but often even the flaws introduced there (e.g. high freq chroma roll-off) are invisible unless you are looking at test patterns.

Thanks!
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post #1090 of 7882
7/20/12 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

While AVR video circuitry ought not to damage the video signal, there have been enough examples of buggy designs that you can't assume that no damage will happen. You'll have to ask in appropriate forums for people's experience.

True, but you can also go by history and Denon AVR's have always scored quite well in video test benchmarks (e.g. at HT Mag) for digital video passthrough. The only test they tend to fail is the clipping of the high freq chroma burst pattern, but most receivers (all brands) fail this test, and it's not visible with real world program material.

So it's not like we are operating in an information vacuum. There was the issue last year with clipping BTB/WTW but that was fixed with a firmware update. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that there is no material PQ risk with passing HDMI video through a xx13 Denon model.
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post #1091 of 7882
7/20/12 at 1:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by freakjim View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

freakjim -- how'd you get the Ref Level Offsets into your Harmony? Did you find serial codes for the offset settings and then convert to hex, and then "hack" them in?
Any inkling these codes will also work with the 2113?

I really can't know for sure. I assumption would be "yes" but that's speculative.
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post #1092 of 7882
7/20/12 at 2:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

True, but you can also go by history and Denon AVR's have always scored quite well in video test benchmarks (e.g. at HT Mag) for digital video passthrough. The only test they tend to fail is the clipping of the high freq chroma burst pattern, but most receivers (all brands) fail this test, and it's not visible with real world program material.
So it's not like we are operating in an information vacuum. There was the issue last year with clipping BTB/WTW but that was fixed with a firmware update. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that there is no material PQ risk with passing HDMI video through a xx13 Denon model.

Interesting, I was doing some reading on the threads for the newer Onkyo receivers and some were commenting on how upscaling done by the receiver was actually improving PQ? Does anyone know how the newer Denons compare to the newer Onkyos in this regard? On the Onkyo thread they seemed to give the edge to the Onkyos which would be an understandable bias since most people on that thread are into Onkyos so I thought I'd ask over here to get the flip side of the coin? How does Denon's video upscaling stack up?
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post #1093 of 7882
7/20/12 at 2:08pm
Ref My 1713 not displaying anything (Video) on my KDL46Z5800

Denon are trying to help and asked me to use Entech to get them the EDID information for my TV. Seems this utility is only available on PC not MAC ?

Has anyone come across this or equivalent software on Mac ? I checked their site and around.
Would really appreciate a link.

Also - Am I correct in assuming I will just need any video link from my Mac to the TV to get this information ?? Still can believe that I seem to be the only person with HDMI handshake issues with this combination ? Have checked all my cables again and even got the wife to turn the receiver off and on again and check my cabling ? Appreciate the help.
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post #1094 of 7882
7/20/12 at 3:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchrisbrown View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

True, but you can also go by history and Denon AVR's have always scored quite well in video test benchmarks (e.g. at HT Mag) for digital video passthrough. The only test they tend to fail is the clipping of the high freq chroma burst pattern, but most receivers (all brands) fail this test, and it's not visible with real world program material.
So it's not like we are operating in an information vacuum. There was the issue last year with clipping BTB/WTW but that was fixed with a firmware update. I think it's a pretty safe assumption that there is no material PQ risk with passing HDMI video through a xx13 Denon model.

Interesting, I was doing some reading on the threads for the newer Onkyo receivers and some were commenting on how upscaling done by the receiver was actually improving PQ? Does anyone know how the newer Denons compare to the newer Onkyos in this regard? On the Onkyo thread they seemed to give the edge to the Onkyos which would be an understandable bias since most people on that thread are into Onkyos so I thought I'd ask over here to get the flip side of the coin? How does Denon's video upscaling stack up?

Onkyo has switched to a Marvell QDEO chipset for video scaling which gets excellent reviews. So I would believe that the current Onkyo lineup has excellent video scaling, and it's not just bias. When you look at bench tests (e.g. Home Theater Mag's review of the 609 or 1009) they perform very well, although they fail or are borderline on the highest frequency chroma burst pattern. I mentioned this before as being typical with Denon AVR's and most other brands.

Denon has been using newer Analog Devices video chips which don't have the reputation of the Marvell QDEO, however they have also done very well in bench tests. With the xx12 models the scaling chip was only in in the 2312 and 3312 models, whereas with the xx13 it's in the 1913 and higher. However, if you look at the bench test for the AVR-3312ci it did just as well as the Onk 1009, although they didn't do any subjective tests of scaling quality.
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post #1095 of 7882
7/20/12 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Onkyo has switched to a Marvell QDEO chipset for video scaling which gets excellent reviews. So I would believe that the current Onkyo lineup has excellent video scaling, and it's not just bias. When you look at bench tests (e.g. Home Theater Mag's review of the 609 or 1009) they perform very well, although they fail or are borderline on the highest frequency chroma burst pattern. I mentioned this before as being typical with Denon AVR's and most other brands.
Denon has been using newer Analog Devices video chips which don't have the reputation of the Marvell QDEO, however they have also done very well in bench tests. With the xx12 models the scaling chip was only in in the 2312 and 3312 models, whereas with the xx13 it's in the 1913 and higher. However, if you look at the bench test for the AVR-3312ci it did just as well as the Onk 1009, although they didn't do any subjective tests of scaling quality.

Thanks, the level of knowledge by you and others on this thread is beyond impressive.
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post #1096 of 7882
7/20/12 at 5:37pm
does my reciever need to be 24p to pass the signal to a 24p hdtv
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post #1097 of 7882
7/20/12 at 5:57pm
Not if you don't plan on using the "i/P scaler" setting, but if you are upscaling to 1080p/24, then yes.
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post #1098 of 7882
7/20/12 at 7:59pm
As before, setting up my 1713.

Both the Blu-Ray deck (Sony BDP-S570) and the receiver can decode the audio. Is it best to let the 1713 do the decoding?

If so I'm not sure how to make this BR deck output the right thing. Here are the Audio options ... Setting-name: option / option. The first option listed is what I have it set to currently.
Audio HDMI: Auto / PCM
DTS Neo6: Off / Cinema / Music
Downmix: Surround / Stereo

If it's better to let the deck do the decoding will the 1713 auto detect that or do I need to set/adjust something?

Same question re the AppleTV (v3) - it only outputs Dolby Digital (or stereo).

Thanks!
s
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post #1099 of 7882
7/20/12 at 8:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

As before, setting up my 1713.
Both the Blu-Ray deck (Sony BDP-S570) and the receiver can decode the audio. Is it best to let the 1713 do the decoding?

Hi sdg4vfx, IMO I don't hear the difference. But do prefer the my receiver to do the decoding because of the blue HD light (AVR-1910).

For the BDP-S570 to bitstream (for receiver to decode), set Audio HDMI to "Auto" and BD Auto Mix to "Off".
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post #1100 of 7882
7/20/12 at 10:49pm
Thanks - that worked.
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post #1101 of 7882
7/21/12 at 4:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Hooking up a new 1713.

I was under the impression that the video from the HDMI inputs just "passed through" and wasn't processed. Is this true? Does only 3D video pass through?

I ask because I have recently read several posts suggesting one connect the Blu-Ray deck's HDMI directly to the TV (to bypass the AVR video processing) to achieve better pq. And then connect the BR audio to the receiver separately (digital coax/toslink).

If I had a Blu-Ray deck that could output 4:4:4 would that make a difference?

The simplicity of being able to switch both audio and video with one button push on the receiver is convenient and desirable (esp. for other family members), but I just got a new panny plasma and don't want to unknowingly comprise the BR pq ; )

Thanks!

as batpig notes, unless the avr is "broken", it should pass it through unmolested... note that all avr's are not "not broken"...

also, be VERY careful when reading posts about "how much better the video processing is" in a given unit.... VERY careful... ime, unless you have a very
large screen (think projector), scaling/deinterlacing is essentially indistinguishable in any modern piece of equipment in "real world viewing"... even then, it can be subtle... it can (and does) often get said that "the vp in unit x is so much better than in unit y"... ime, this is more "repeating what someone has heard from someone else", rather than "reality"... vp is pretty much a commodity now...

as a "general video note"... it's actually better to pass 4:2:2 in almost all cases...
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post #1102 of 7882
7/21/12 at 6:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdg4vfx View Post

Thanks - that worked.
Secondary audio needs to be on if you want to hear what's being said in the PIP (Picture-In-Picture) extras available on some BDs. There is no quality difference between bitstreamed and non-bitstreamed (LPCM) audio. The difference is only in where the bitstreamed audio is decoded into LPCM -- in the player or in the receiver. Many of us who have "audio OCD" wink.gif like to see the HD audio decoder lights illuminated on the receiver. You won't see them when sending decoded (LPCM) audio from the player.
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post #1103 of 7882
7/21/12 at 7:33am
I know this might be a tough one to answer because it can be so subjective, but would I hear the difference if I bought a new receiver?

I have a strict budget and I'm considering a 1712 or 1713. I would get the 12 to save some money, but if the 13 would sound better then I would go for it.

Here's what I have: a 12 year old Yamaha RX-V795a. (Everything I have that is audio related is at least 10 years old.)

Quick specs:

Power, Min. RMS Output power/ch., 8 ohms MAIN: 20 to 20 kHz, 0.04% THD = 85W, CENTER: 20 to 20 kHz, 0.04% THD = 85W, REAR: 20 to 20 kHz, 0.04% THD = 85W
Dynamic Power Per Channel (Main Channels) 8/6/4/2/ohms = 115/140/170/200W
Damping Factor 20 to 20 kHz, 8ohms = 80
Frequency Response 20 to 20 kHz = +/-0.5 dB (CD)

For speakers I have:

Mains: Klipsch Fortes
Center: Klipsch RC-3
Rear (2): Klipsch RS-3
Sub: BA PV800

I'm thinking the adjustments (Audyssey) available on the new receivers might yield better sound for me. We just replaced the carpeting in our family room with hardwood floors and the room became relatively 'live' as you can imagine. I can't do much about the new floor and the acoustics the room has now, but the newer receivers and their standard features intrigue me.

By the way, the 'liveliness' of the room is not huge for us, it's just different, and there isn't much I can do about it with my Yamaha. All of the 'preset' sound fields actually make it worse. It the room was a 10 sound-wise with carpeting, I would rate it an 8 now.

My main question is will a new receiver, whether we put it in my room before or after the new floor, sound better to me? The most my Yamaha will do is DTS, by the way, so I'm thinking for Blu-rays we would be better off with a new one, although that is only about 10% of our viewing right now.
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post #1104 of 7882
7/21/12 at 7:51am
The primary distinguishing factor between an older AVR and newer model is that the newer model will more likely use an AUTO EQ program and therefore will sound better and in the case where the same EQ version is used in both models (ie. MultEQ XT: 1712 vs. 1713) they will sound the same.
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post #1105 of 7882
7/21/12 at 8:56am
Thanks for the quick response, and the links in your sig!
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post #1106 of 7882
7/21/12 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Athlon646464 View Post

I know this might be a tough one to answer because it can be so subjective, but would I hear the difference if I bought a new receiver?
I have a strict budget and I'm considering a 1712 or 1713. .

If you have a Fry's nearby, they currently have the 1913 on sale for $299.99. Sales started today until the 26. They had at least 3 or 4 that I could see at their Chicago (Downer's Grove) store
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post #1107 of 7882
7/21/12 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by vandre View Post

If you have a Fry's nearby, they currently have the 1913 on sale for $299.99. Sales started today until the 26. They had at least 3 or 4 that I could see at their Chicago (Downer's Grove) store
That's an incredible deal. Thanks. Unfortunately I live near Boston, and there aren't any near me.
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post #1108 of 7882
7/21/12 at 1:56pm
Just received an AVR2113CI replace an AVR1910 that got zapped during a thunder storm and am having issues accessing the Denon Set Up Menu.

My Samsung LN52A630 LCD TV does not show the AVR as a source on the Source List. When I try to connect to the HDMI input I have plugged the AVR into I get a No Signal message.

I tried connecting my HR23 DVR and Panasonic Blu ray player directly into each TV HDMI input and had no issues connecting on each one. I also tried a different HDMI cable from the AVR to the TV but still can't access the Denon Set Up Menu.

I also did a microprocessor reset and network reset.

Any suggestions? My cables are about 3 years old. Does this receiver require a special HDMI cable?
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post #1109 of 7882
7/21/12 at 2:05pm
Nevermind, I started pressing buttons on the remote and the wizard popped up. Not sure what the issue was.
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post #1110 of 7882
7/21/12 at 3:45pm
Brand new AVR-1913 owner

I just picked up this receiver at a local instance of a big-box store chain that caters to geeks. Their weekly ad had a "famous maker" receiver on sale for effectively half price. Turns out it was the AVR-1912 that they were closing out, but when I inquired, they had none left and were honoring the ad on the 1913--and had sold out of them. I went to another location in my town and picked one up. I doubt I will see this price again on the 1913 until Black Friday. Was going to get a close out on a 2112CI but I couldn't pass this up and will actually use the SiriusXM feature. Not sure I'll miss the higher-level room EQ modes, and at this price I'm not too concerned about the extra warranty. Pretty stoked.

Will have to wait to unbox until I have my new in-wall speakers installed. Upgrading from an old Kenwood THX Ultra certified AVR that didn't have HDMI capabilities, pretty sure this will be a big jump!
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ