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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 135

post #4021 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

JJ -- although all the speakers are identical, the differing acoustic positions within the room can have a dramatic effect on low end output. That's why Audyssey actually measures the speakers and how they respond in your room as opposed to just going by the manufacturer's specs.
The Takes are spec'd down to 115Hz but the bottom end will change in room depending on how much bass reinforcement they are getting from nearby boundaries or other properties of their physical position. Are the front speakers pulled out from the wall, whereas the surrounds are wall-mounted? This is one example that could explain the discrepancy. Also, just due to the room shape you could be sitting in a slight "null" for one or both of the fronts that is sucking out a bit of the bass as the mic "hears" it.
Also, there is less granularity in the crossovers once you move away from the 80/90/100 mid-zone. From 120Hz the next crossover is 150Hz, so it's possible your fronts are measuring just above 120Hz and then the receiver has to bump it all the way up to the next option (150).
As a test, you could try swapping the fronts and the surrounds and re-running Audyssey, and see if you get similar results. Note that you can get slight changes with different Audyssey runs if you don't use the exact same mic positions -- the crossovers are calculated based on all the measurements. Sometimes repositioning the speakers slightly and re-running will change things, you might be able to get the fronts to clock in at 120Hz if they are right around there.
Regardless, I would raise the other crossovers up to 120Hz and call it a day.

Thanks for the excellent reply! I think you're exactly right, as there are accoustic reasons the speakers whould measure differently. The surrounds are wall-mounted, fairly close to the corners, the center is on a shelf of a TV stand/AV cabinet, and the fronts are on speaker stands almost 2 ft. from the wall. I suspected this was the reason, but I just wanted confirmation that such a disparity wasn't unusual. My own ears can hear the the difference in the bass from the Audyssey test chirps.

Also, good information on the crossover jump from 120 to 150; I didn't notice that. So far, I have not been bothered by the 150 crossover. However, if I start feeling like the directionality of the bass from the fronts is a bit off, do you think this is one case where I actually can experiment with lowering the crossover and see if 120 sounds better than 150? If, hypothetically, the fronts were measuring just over 120 (and I suspect there's no way to retrieve the actual number), then there shouldn't be much of a "hole" in the bass by lowering the crossover.
post #4022 of 10468
So, I'm watching Jurassic Park on cable last night and the sound was really interesting. I remember from previous HT setups I've had that the first time the T-Rex screams, it was quite loud. Last night it was more muted, and I suspect this is the Dynamic Volume kicking in. It's still on the "medium" setting that's set by default after running Audyssey. I haven't really had the house to myself since setting up the receiver, and the kid is sleeping just down the hall, so I didn't really want to play around with A/B comparisons (turning Dyn. Vol. on and off) last night, but now I'm really anxious to hear the difference. I have to say, it really is quite amazing to be watching a movie like this and have the dialogue at a comfortable level, but not feel like you have to jump for the mute button during the action sequences. As long as I can still turn it off and get the full "theater" effect when I am able to blast it, this will work out great! The WAF was shooting up last night as I was explaining to her what the receiver was doing.
post #4023 of 10468
^^^^

Speaking of Dynamic Volume - anyone got discrete IR hex codes for this?


Just got my 2113ci last Saturday and have been setting up/tweaking ever since! Overall, I am pleased as punch with this new reciever. My speakers have never sounded this good! The timbre match that Audyssey can accomplish is astonishing. With my old receiver, if a sound would pan from the FL or FR to center, the timbre difference was very noticeable. Now, I can't tell at all - the front soundstage is seamless. And, my LFE channel is smooth as butter now. smile.gif Audyssey XT kicks ***....can't help but wonder what XT 32 could do for me. cool.gif

Audio from my Directv Tivo sucks though. I'm sure it's the same with most cable providers - depending on channel or content, the 5.1 mix can be all over the place. Dialogue coming from the FL & FR, even from the surrounds at times. I thought I'd found a nice work-around for this problem - if I turn up the "Dialogue Level" to +12 and the "Subwoofer Level" to around +7-8 the dialogue pretty much stays anchored to the center speaker, and I still get great LFE effects although the surround effects are muted a bit.

Now, here's my problem - I thought that the dialogue and sub settings on the 2113 were INPUT specific...I switched over to my PS3 (my only other source) and played a Blu Ray and checked those setting and they were still where Audyssey set them, great!

Well, after more testing, I've found that those settings are NOT input specific...they are audio format specific. Playing a DD 2/0/0 signal from my PS3 brings up the same settings as my DirecTivo. I think it's even the same on a DD 3/2/1 signal if it's coming from streaming media, although not with Multi In 3/2/1.

Is there a chart or something that explains how the 2113 handles all the different audio formats?

Has anyone found a better solution to the crappy sound from cable/sat boxes? For now, I'm sticking with what I've come up with because I can't think of a better way to do it.
post #4024 of 10468
^^^

as you note, the audio from cable/sat is very channel specific, ranging from pretty darned good DD5.1 to outright terrible. Unless you want to be fiddling with the controls every time you change a channel, there isn't much you can do about it imo.
post #4025 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

^^^^
Speaking of Dynamic Volume - anyone got discrete IR hex codes for this?

Shoulda known, Batpig's got 'em. smile.gif

http://batpigworld.com/wp/?p=117

Thanks for all you do for us Denon-ites Batpig!

EDIT: I notice you don't have the discretes for Power On and Power Off on that list. I got 'em if you want to add them to the list. Can't get 'em 'til I get off work though.
post #4026 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Audio from my Directv Tivo sucks though. I'm sure it's the same with most cable providers - depending on channel or content, the 5.1 mix can be all over the place. Dialogue coming from the FL & FR, even from the surrounds at times. I thought I'd found a nice work-around for this problem - if I turn up the "Dialogue Level" to +12 and the "Subwoofer Level" to around +7-8 the dialogue pretty much stays anchored to the center speaker, and I still get great LFE effects although the surround effects are muted a bit.

As noted above broadcast audio streams are all over the map. I would try to avoid screwing up the Dialogue/Sub level settings just to compensate for this crappy audio, since it will screw up stuff for your other inputs. As you have found, these settings are tied to the Surround Mode "family" and NOT to the input.

The Audyssey settings however ARE tied to the input, so what you might want to do is tweak Dynamic Volume and the Reference Level Offset to help tame things a bit.

Quote:
EDIT: I notice you don't have the discretes for Power On and Power Off on that list. I got 'em if you want to add them to the list. Can't get 'em 'til I get off work though.

Thanks but no need smile.gif I can generate them myself if I wanted but that page is really intended to help users who want to add "bonus" codes to their universal remote. The basic commands like Power ON/OFF discretes are typically going to be included as part of the default codes (e.g. when you load a Denon receiver device to your Harmony), so to keep that page manageable I focus on the special commands that otherwise wouldn't be available...
post #4027 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JJMiller View Post

I think you're exactly right, as there are accoustic reasons the speakers whould measure differently. The surrounds are wall-mounted, fairly close to the corners, the center is on a shelf of a TV stand/AV cabinet, and the fronts are on speaker stands almost 2 ft. from the wall.

Yup, there you go. The fronts aren't getting ANY bass reinforcement from nearby boundaries, and the center is getting a bit from the nearby cabinet surfaces. The surrounds are getting the most boost possible being in a corner. That explains everything.

Quote:
Also, good information on the crossover jump from 120 to 150; I didn't notice that. So far, I have not been bothered by the 150 crossover. However, if I start feeling like the directionality of the bass from the fronts is a bit off, do you think this is one case where I actually can experiment with lowering the crossover and see if 120 sounds better than 150? If, hypothetically, the fronts were measuring just over 120 (and I suspect there's no way to retrieve the actual number), then there shouldn't be much of a "hole" in the bass by lowering the crossover.

Right, the "Audyssey rule" is don't lower crossovers, but this is the one situation where I will sometimes recommend deviating from "the book" slightly, because of the lack of granularity in crossover choices above 120Hz. Without measuring gear, you will have to just use your ears to see if 120Hz sounds better. I would put on some familiar music with good mid-bass and play in 2.1 (STEREO) mode (to avoid any distractions from the center + surrounds) and experiment with 120Hz vs. 150Hz. Sometimes opening a small hole in the EQ'd response is the "lesser of two evils" compared to an extremely high crossover. But I wouldn't go any lower than the next step down (120Hz).
post #4028 of 10468
Is an extremely high crossover inherntly bad? ie cause ear fatigue? My small side speakers are 250hz, not sure why
post #4029 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teletodd View Post

Is an extremely high crossover inherntly bad? ie cause ear fatigue? My small side speakers are 250hz, not sure why

I don't know about "bad", but it's my understanding that the "generic" recommended crossover of 80Hz is because that's the threshhold below which we can't discern direction (where it's coming from) and above which we start to be able to. At 250Hz, I would think a lot of sounds (especially dialog) that should sound like they're coming from specific speakers, will sound odd coming from the subwoofer. My new HT is my frist one with a subwoofer, though, so I'm not speaking from experience. I'll leave mine at 150Hz for a while and see how it sounds to me.
post #4030 of 10468
Thread Starter 
no, not "inherently bad". The issues could be twofold: (1) is if your sub simply doesn't play that high, many subs roll off steeply above 120-150Hz or so, which may mean there's a hole in the system response, and (2) higher crossover is more likely to make the sub bass sound "localized", which could be an issue if the sub is in a corner or something (e.g. it could make the bass sound "lopsided).
post #4031 of 10468
I can think of two potential problems related to high crossover frequencies:

1. Subwoofer limitations: some subwoofers might produce distorted audio at the higher frequencies (possibly leading to "ear fatigue"), and some subwoofers are designed such that their low-pass-filters block all audio above 150 Hz. (The latter is why you should use an LFE connection, if it's available on the subwoofer. That connection normally bypasses all filters built into the subwoofer.)

2. Sound coming from the wrong direction: Most people can tell where the sound is coming from when it's at a frequency above 80 Hz. It can be somewhat distracting if sounds that are supposed to be coming from the surround speaker come from the position of the subwoofer instead.

ETA: Of course, batpig beat me to it. smile.gif
post #4032 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

As noted above broadcast audio streams are all over the map. I would try to avoid screwing up the Dialogue/Sub level settings just to compensate for this crappy audio, since it will screw up stuff for your other inputs. As you have found, these settings are tied to the Surround Mode "family" and NOT to the input.
The Audyssey settings however ARE tied to the input, so what you might want to do is tweak Dynamic Volume and the Reference Level Offset to help tame things a bit. .

Great idea! I'll try that out tonight. This is exactly the advice I was looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Thanks but no need smile.gif I can generate them myself if I wanted but that page is really intended to help users who want to add "bonus" codes to their universal remote. The basic commands like Power ON/OFF discretes are typically going to be included as part of the default codes (e.g. when you load a Denon receiver device to your Harmony), so to keep that page manageable I focus on the special commands that otherwise wouldn't be available...

Some of us DON'T use a Harmony, y'know. wink.gif I still love my MX-700 (I've even got a backup I bought on Ebay a couple years ago) and you can have it when you pry it from my cold, dead hands. smile.gif

How about a discrete code for the "Information" screen? I'm use it a lot right now and it's buried really deep in the menus.


How about this one: I like having just the one HDMI cable running to my TV, but my video settings for my two inputs (DirecTivo & PS3) vary quite a bit. For now, I've adjusted the picture for PS3 in the 2113's video adjustments menu (contrast, brightness and saturation) and have gotten a great looking pic on both inputs. Is this a bad idea? I'm not sure if the video processing of the Denon is introducing any unwanted artifacts or not...doesn't look like it to me.

I'm trying to avoid connecting my Tivo directly to the TV in order to keep the GUI overlay from the Denon.
post #4033 of 10468
After shopping around new/used Denons to replace my 1909 with fried subwoofer channel, I am happy to be joining the 2113 family soon! redface.gif)

Electronics Expo was out of stock until mid January, probably due to this sites 5 star recommendation of them! smile.gif

Lucky for me, ABT was willing to match the discounted price with $548 w/ free shipping. Thank You ABT. It will ship tomorrow and I will hopefully have it by next Friday, or soon after. Not an expenditure I was liking to make, but happy to have found an excellent upgrade at a good price.

Thanks to JDsmoothie for his help in the threads and to Batpig for all the info he provides to help weed through all the variables involved in the decision process. (especially for my OCD tendencies! wink.gif )
post #4034 of 10468
Swapped out my small klh side speakers for the 140 watt klh 900b's, ran Audessey and all speakers came in at 60hz. I raised them to 80hz. Sounds great. I'll add the small klhs as back speakers next, just wanted to hear the difference in the 5.1 set up first. Too much fun.
post #4035 of 10468
I am having a Zone 2 issue I'm hoping someone can help me with. I've read this thread and searched to find if anyone has a similar situation, and didn't see any solutions that fit my problem. Here's my set up:

3313CI connected to a Projector in Zone 1 and a TV in Zone 2. Want to be able to watch the same source concurrently on both Projector and TV, or different sources concurrently, or watch only one or the other. Here is how the outputs are connected:

Projector: 3313CI Zone 1 Output -> 25' High Speed HDMI -> HDMI Extender -> 6' High Speed HDMI -> Epson 8700UB

Here are the 2 different configurations I've tried on the TV to get it to work, neither of which solves the problem.

TV Configuration #1: 3313CI Zone 2 Output -> 25' High Speed HDMI -> HDMI Coupler -> 25' High Speed HDMI (diff brand) ->HDMI Coupler -> 3 ft High Speed HDMI -> Sony LCD TV.


Note the projector works FINE with all sources in this configuration with the TV even though nothing changed on the Projector configuration, the only thing broken is the Cable box source on the TV - projector displays audio and video fine for it.


TV Configuration #2: 3313CI Zone 2 Output -> 25' High Speed HDMI -> HDMI Coupler -> 25' High Speed HDMI (diff brand) -> HDMI Extender -> 3 ft High Speed HDMI -> Sony LCD TV.



Inserting the HDMI extender on the Zone 2 output feed seems to disrupt the whole set up. The exact same model of extender is on the Zone 1 output with no problem.

Any idea what might be causing me to not get the TV to work or what configuration I need to try?
post #4036 of 10468
OK, I love my new 2113ci, but I'm already thinking of upgrading...I got an unexpected windfall in the mail today. smile.gif

So, a question for you:
If money was no issue, would you choose 3313ci or 4311ci?
post #4037 of 10468
Although the 3313CI offers some additional functionality that neither the 2113CI nor 4311CI has, it features the same version of Audyssey MultEQ XT as does the 2113CI rather than the much more advanced XT32 used on the 4311CI.
post #4038 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelton325 View Post

I am having a Zone 2 issue I'm hoping someone can help me with. I've read this thread and searched to find if anyone has a similar situation, and didn't see any solutions that fit my problem. Here's my set up:
3313CI connected to a Projector in Zone 1 and a TV in Zone 2. Want to be able to watch the same source concurrently on both Projector and TV, or different sources concurrently, or watch only one or the other. Here is how the outputs are connected:
Projector: 3313CI Zone 1 Output -> 25' High Speed HDMI -> HDMI Extender -> 6' High Speed HDMI -> Epson 8700UB
Here are the 2 different configurations I've tried on the TV to get it to work, neither of which solves the problem.
TV Configuration #1: 3313CI Zone 2 Output -> 25' High Speed HDMI -> HDMI Coupler -> 25' High Speed HDMI (diff brand) ->HDMI Coupler -> 3 ft High Speed HDMI -> Sony LCD TV.

Note the projector works FINE with all sources in this configuration with the TV even though nothing changed on the Projector configuration, the only thing broken is the Cable box source on the TV - projector displays audio and video fine for it.
TV Configuration #2: 3313CI Zone 2 Output -> 25' High Speed HDMI -> HDMI Coupler -> 25' High Speed HDMI (diff brand) -> HDMI Extender -> 3 ft High Speed HDMI -> Sony LCD TV.

Inserting the HDMI extender on the Zone 2 output feed seems to disrupt the whole set up. The exact same model of extender is on the Zone 1 output with no problem.
Any idea what might be causing me to not get the TV to work or what configuration I need to try?

The 3313CI is actually working as designed as only the rear panel HDMI inputs can pass through the Zone2(HDMI) output which is why the component video connection is not working to the TV. Connect an HDMI cable from the cable box to the AVR and your problem should be solved (unless of course you have the component connection to mitigate HDMI handshake issues from the cable box).
post #4039 of 10468
Hi guys. I've got a TV connected to Zone 2 HDMI output. If I want to play the TV Audio through my Zone 2 speakers, can I simply connect an optical cable to the optical audio input of the 3313 and press TV AUDIO on the remote?
post #4040 of 10468
Although that would work on any of the prior years 331XCI models, that is not a feature of the 3313CI, rather as is the case with the lower level XX13 Zone 2 models, you'll have to either (1) connect an analog cable from any external source you want to pass to Zone 2, or (2) connect the Zone2(HDMI) to a second AVR with the Zone 2 speakers and Zone 2 TV connected to that second AVR.
post #4041 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The 3313CI is actually working as designed as only the rear panel HDMI inputs can pass through the Zone2(HDMI) output which is why the component video connection is not working to the TV. Connect an HDMI cable from the cable box to the AVR and your problem should be solved (unless of course you have the component connection to mitigate HDMI handshake issues from the cable box).

I am having HDMI issues from my cable box to AVR, hence the component connection. So to confirm, component video can flow out the zone 1 output but not the Zone 2 output? Darn, I must've missed that in all my research!

I may pull the cable box out and test with some other TV's directly with HDMI to see if it's a handshake issue or whether the HDMI out on it just plain stopped working (this only started a month ago with this box).
post #4042 of 10468
Correct. From your Owner's manual (p. 103) ...




HDMI handshake issues with cable/sat boxes are quite common when connected to an AVR. Additionally, it's not uncommon for a new firmware update to the cable/sat box to create an HDMI handshake issue where one did not exist prior to the update.
post #4043 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

OK, I love my new 2113ci, but I'm already thinking of upgrading...I got an unexpected windfall in the mail today. smile.gif

So, a question for you:
If money was no issue, would you choose 3313ci or 4311ci?

the 4311...
post #4044 of 10468
Hi everyone just picked up my 2113 today and I got a few questions,

Should the volume on whatever source be set as high as it can ?

What volume on the avr should I not be going over ? atm I'm using a pair of mordaunt short aviano 1's rated at 100w (until my surround set gets delivered) im listening to the fm radio at -35 and it's not exactly loud, I'm just worried about the avr maybe getting too warm if I set the volume too high.

and, I have my hd tv receiver plugged into the cbl/sat input, will it not pass through that if I've selected another input, Say i want to watch the tv but listen to internet radio ?
post #4045 of 10468
^^^
In your first question, I'm assuming you're talking about the 'source level' adjustment? I think the idea for that is to allow you to balance the inputs so you don't get big changes in volume just by changing the source selection. And of course, to bring up/down a source that seems too weak or strong.

My 2113 is set to default to -40 on power on and I most often listen at -30 for mornings/late night and around -15 to -20 for rock the house levels during some action flick.

I don't think you can listen to internet radio while viewing a different source.
post #4046 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I would put on some familiar music with good mid-bass and play in 2.1 (STEREO) mode (to avoid any distractions from the center + surrounds) and experiment with 120Hz vs. 150Hz

OK, I have to confess, I'm not really an audiophile, so I'm not sure how to turn this advice into something useful. What instruments produce mid-bass in the 100-150Hz range? Are we talking songs where the bass guitar really stands out? Any specific artists or genres come to mind? My music collection is fairly diverse---not a lot of pop/top 40 or hip-hop, but a good bit of rock, jazz, blues, classical, movie soundtracks.
post #4047 of 10468
Good day,

I finally got around to hooking up my AVR1713 on Tuesday and it worked perfectly. As of yesterday, it no longer picks up a network connection preventing me from using the denon app and internet radio. I reran the network setup to re establish the connection and it worked fine again for about 15 minutes. Once again, it won't pick up a connection no matter what I do. The unit is directly plugged via ethernet cable from my Uverse router.

I've reset the router, changed ethernet cables and powered off and powered back on my unit with no sucess. My xbox is also directly connected to the router so I know my router isn't faulty.

Any other suggestions??

I did a search for "network issue" and only found posts related to apple airplay. Sorry if this question has been repeated already.
post #4048 of 10468
@ batpig

Now that you've had the 2313CI for a while, has your reasoning changed about why one would or would not make the jump from the 2113CI? I guess I'm asking are there things that, once you got the 2313CI, you implemented that you originally thought you would never use?

Thanks
Ed
post #4049 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by lparsons21 View Post

^^^
In your first question, I'm assuming you're talking about the 'source level' adjustment? I think the idea for that is to allow you to balance the inputs so you don't get big changes in volume just by changing the source selection. And of course, to bring up/down a source that seems too weak or strong.
My 2113 is set to default to -40 on power on and I most often listen at -30 for mornings/late night and around -15 to -20 for rock the house levels during some action flick.
I don't think you can listen to internet radio while viewing a different source.

Thanks, By source in my first question I meant my HD TV box, Should I have the volume on that all the way up when using it throught the avr ?

Couple more tings aswell now, for some reason iTunes isn't seeing the avr so I cant use airplay ? not a massive problem as I dont have an iphone and can stream the music from my pc without it anyway.

and the last is while I can stream mp3, wma, aac and whatnot from my pc, FLAC wont work, wether I try direct from the avr or stream from pc ??


I noticed there is a firmware update for my avr but haven't done it yet, Would this fix those problems ? and if i do update it will I have to go through the audyssey setup again ?
post #4050 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daveyyy View Post

Thanks, By source in my first question I meant my HD TV box, Should I have the volume on that all the way up when using it throught the avr ?

I'm confused a bit. What is your 'HD TV' box? Are you talking about the TV itself?

If you connect your input sources (cable/sat/whatever) to the Denon first via HDMI and then to the TV via HDMI, the volume setting on the TV itself doesn't matter as it isn't doing the audio at all.

I've got 2 Satellite HDDVRs, an AppleTV(2), BluRay, HDDVD player all connected to the Denon via HDMI and then to the TV for the video. All audio handled by the Denon. None of those boxes has a volume control at all.
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