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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 149

post #4441 of 8296
1/3/13 at 12:11pm
I went to d/l the latest firmware for my 2113 because I see it fixes the Pandora login and the unit has been stuck on "Authenticating" for 2 hours now (after hitting the start upgrade menu option). Checking for an update times out too. I know networking is working because I can still use my phone to change volume/input/etc. I see from the early posts that we can do a network reset but I also see that doing so will essentially perform a factory reset on the device. Soooo...

1) Can anyone else successfully check for and install a firmware update, or is it just me?

2) If I do the recommended network reset, will I lose my audyssy settings?

3) anything I can try before doing the network reset?

Thanks!
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post #4442 of 8296
1/3/13 at 12:32pm
I've had authentication timeouts on 3313 a couple of times. No number of microprocessor/network resets solved the issue.

On a hunch, I registered the receiver with its serial number on Denon's Product Registration website (http://usa.denon.com/us/support/pages/productregistration.aspx). Don't know if this was what was really required for firmware download authentication, or if the Denon servers just finally responded to the authentication request, but my firmware updates passed authentication and kicked off after I did this. You may want to try this and see.
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post #4443 of 8296
1/3/13 at 12:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

4. Analog inputs cannot be reset/assigned.
5. Huh? With the BDP set to "bitstream" and Secondary Audio set to "OFF", the bitstream DD/DTS track will pass to the AVR which will then decode it while displaying the track format (DD or DTS) on the front panel display. With the BDP set to PCM or LPCM, the BDP decodes the DD/DTS audio first and then passes it to the AVR which will display "Mult CH IN". If the BDP is only passing a stereo signal, the surround mode on the AVR can be changed from "Mult CH Stereo" to "DD PLII - Cinema" while pressing and holding the MOVIE button on the remote for a few seconds.
Also note that Audyssey doesn't set the speaker LARGE/SMALL or crossover settings, rather the AVR does this after Audyssey passes the -3db point to the AVR.

4) Ok I cannot rename RCA/analog inputs. How can I hook up my XM tuner's RCA's? Can I plug them into the RCA's labeled 'CD'. Is there a better way to hook up the XM tuner? Can I connect the (never used) VCR to the 'DVD' labeled RCA audio and Video inputs?

5) BD on display... My mistake. The display read Mult Ch Stereo when no disc was i player. When I put a disc in, display read DTS-HD. Sorry for that ignorance.
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post #4444 of 8296
1/3/13 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davekro View Post

3) Crossovers: Audyssey set my front L & R at 120hz crossover! WT heck?? What would cause this? I had manually set the fronts to small before running Audyssey. Should I have left them as large and let Audyssey change them to small ??(Axiom M-80 towers. My 1909's MultEq always set crossovers at 80hz for these.)
Center 80hz and Surr back 90hz were same as before. Side surr were set at 60hz. Was always 80hz before. (But with these 8" in wall spkrs, I can believe XT just saw them differently than MultEq.)

Still looking to find reason for 120Hz (now 150Hz after reran Aud.!) crossover on my mains with 2113:
a) I just noticed that my prev. 1909 was set on Audyssey = Flat (Because I noticed on the 2113, that there was a choice between Audyssey (default? It IS set to this) & Audyssey Flat)
b) My old 1909 settings:
Spkr Config. Check: Front =Large
Crossover Freq. Check: Front = Large
Audyssey/ Parameters: = Flat
Speaker Config. (Menu 2-1-1): Front = SMALL
Crossover Freq. -Advanced (Menu 2-1-5): Front = SMALL, 80Hz
This showing large, then small confuses me. I had assumed I manually had set them to Large and from Audyssey's calculations, the 1909 set the size to small and crossover to 80Hz. Is my problem that the 2113 defaulted to Audyssey vs. Aud. Flat? What is the proper setting?
c) The only room/ spkr location change, is that I changed where the RF main spkr points from the MLP to about 3' to the right. It is still not pointing at the right side of couch, but right of center. I thought that might give a slightly better sound to "the other" listening position. (not that my wife cares wink.gif).
EDIT: Could the location of the two new mic positions 7 & 8 right over the back of the couch be the culprit for the 150Hz mains xover? For XT's 8 positions, the mic positions from all previous Audyssey runs changed as follows: all #1 MLP (& 2-6) moved forward ≈ 6". Newly added positions 7 & 8 are back about 4" from where MLP used to be. tip of mic is 5"-6" above couch back. Pic shows mic in position #8.

(forgive the OCD with the frame wink.gif )


My bottom line question is what caused my fronts to go from small/ 80Hz (1909) to small/(now) 150Hz (2113)?
Edited by davekro - 1/3/13 at 1:46pm
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post #4445 of 8296
1/3/13 at 1:26pm
Can I "Save" my Audyssey settings to my Mac? When on the web control from my Mac, and I click the (Save), the button just go away. I see nothing on the 2113's display (either when it was off or on prior to 'clicking' Save). Nothing shows up on my Mac. "Config.dat" sounds like a non Mac file, maybe it works only on Windows platform.
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post #4446 of 8296
1/3/13 at 2:15pm
I'm going to take back my unopened 1913 today, and see if they have a 2113 or 2313, probably just a 2113 is all I need, just the basics and get a great value.
Is $649 the best price I can expect to pay for it, via Best Buy or Amazon etc?
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post #4447 of 8296
1/3/13 at 3:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davekro View Post

Can I "Save" my Audyssey settings to my Mac? When on the web control from my Mac, and I click the (Save), the button just go away. I see nothing on the 2113's display (either when it was off or on prior to 'clicking' Save). Nothing shows up on my Mac. "Config.dat" sounds like a non Mac file, maybe it works only on Windows platform.

No, neither the saving nor loading of the config.dat file functions will work on a Mac. It is windows only for those. frown.gif
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post #4448 of 8296
1/3/13 at 3:44pm
Thanks for the reply. I'll get my Wife's laptop to save then.
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post #4449 of 8296
1/3/13 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

I'm going to take back my unopened 1913 today, and see if they have a 2113 or 2313, probably just a 2113 is all I need, just the basics and get a great value.
Is $649 the best price I can expect to pay for it, via Best Buy or Amazon etc?
I ordered my 2113 12/20 from ABT for $548 w/ free shpg. Check if they still have some. Electronics Expo told me at that time they were out but had some due in mid January ($550), so you could call them too.
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post #4450 of 8296
1/3/13 at 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davekro View Post

Can I "Save" my Audyssey settings to my Mac? When on the web control from my Mac, and I click the (Save), the button just go away. I see nothing on the 2113's display (either when it was off or on prior to 'clicking' Save). Nothing shows up on my Mac. "Config.dat" sounds like a non Mac file, maybe it works only on Windows platform.

If it's not working for you using Safari, try using Firefox which should then work.
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post #4451 of 8296
1/3/13 at 4:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by davekro View Post

Still looking to find reason for 120Hz (now 150Hz after reran Aud.!) crossover on my mains with 2113:
a) I just noticed that my prev. 1909 was set on Audyssey = Flat (Because I noticed on the 2113, that there was a choice between Audyssey (default? It IS set to this) & Audyssey Flat)
b) My old 1909 settings:
Spkr Config. Check: Front =Large
Crossover Freq. Check: Front = Large
Audyssey/ Parameters: = Flat
Speaker Config. (Menu 2-1-1): Front = SMALL
Crossover Freq. -Advanced (Menu 2-1-5): Front = SMALL, 80Hz
This showing large, then small confuses me. I had assumed I manually had set them to Large and from Audyssey's calculations, the 1909 set the size to small and crossover to 80Hz. Is my problem that the 2113 defaulted to Audyssey vs. Aud. Flat? What is the proper setting?
c) The only room/ spkr location change, is that I changed where the RF main spkr points from the MLP to about 3' to the right. It is still not pointing at the right side of couch, but right of center. I thought that might give a slightly better sound to "the other" listening position. (not that my wife cares wink.gif).

OK, there are a few points of confusion here:

confusion #1 -- the "Audyssey" curve is always the default. If your 1909 was set at "Flat", that means you did it manually.

confusion #2 -- the choice of target curve is done AFTER running Audyssey, and (as with any other setting) has zero impact on the calibration itself

confusion #3 -- the Config Check is showing the results of Audyssey calibration, which shows that your speakers were detected as LARGE (i.e. with bass response to 40Hz or below). YOU manually changed them to Small/80Hz, probably based on recommendations from people like me wink.gif

So, all of the above does nothing to resolve why your speakers used to be detected as LARGE but are not coming in with a 120-150Hz crossover recommendation. LARGE is actually what you'd expect given the size and capability of those tower speakers, which should easily reach 40Hz. This must mean there is some room acoustic issue at play.

I assume you don't have any measurement capability on hand, so you might have to do some experimentation. What I would do (to make it quicker to run Audyssey) is to temporarily unplug all speakers but the front towers + subwoofer (2.1 setup). Then you can quickly do a one-position Audyssey measurement, let it calculate, and check the parameters. Repeat this processing, experimenting with different mic positions and/or speaker positions, and you might find the culprit.

Outside possibility, though not likely, is that there may be a blown woofer in one of the speakers that you hadn't noticed, but is now being picked up by the measurements,
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post #4452 of 8296
1/3/13 at 4:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

...The change in crossover could be due to room acoustics, there may be a null around 100Hz or so that is causing Audyssey to "see" a higher roll-off on the front speakers. The crossover is calculated based on all measurement points, so the fact that you are getting a different result than with the 1909 could be due to slightly different physical locations of the mic. I would recommend trying to adjust the speaker position slightly and trying again.

I stumbled across graphs of the EQ (S/Up > Spkrs > Audyssey S/Up > Parameter Check > Equalizers > Audyssey)
Top is LF spkr, bottom is RF spkr. The LF shows a 3dB drop just below what looks like 80Hz. THis is the graph for when Audyssey set the fronts at 150Hz! (prev run set them at 120Hz)



In case there was any chance that the ottoman to the left of the RF could cause this (above)...


I run Audyssey for 3rd time (only 3 mic positions) with ottoman removed and me laying on floor behind couch (instead of sitting next to kitchen counter behind left back surround.)
Front mains are now set in Spkr. Config. to Large/ Full band!

So I run a 4th Audyssey with all 8 positions (these multi runs ARE allowing me to dial in my two subs' dB).
Result: Still front mains are set in Spkr. Config. to Large/ Full band! Here is the graph NOW. Note huge difference in LF speaker (upper graph).



I thought when SUbwoofer was set to Yes, The AVR automatically set the fronts to 'small'. Sub IS set to yes.
I am just trying to get to Fronts = small, crossover ≈ 80Hz.
Edited by davekro - 1/3/13 at 4:48pm
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post #4453 of 8296
1/3/13 at 4:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

If it's not working for you using Safari, try using Firefox which should then work.
I got "Saving" on Denon display. Then the file showed up on my Mac's desktop and I saved it. done Sweet. Thanks JD ! ! (yet again) biggrin.gif
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post #4454 of 8296
1/3/13 at 4:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

OK, there are a few points of confusion here:
confusion #1 -- the "Audyssey" curve is always the default. If your 1909 was set at "Flat", that means you did it manually.
confusion #2 -- the choice of target curve is done AFTER running Audyssey, and (as with any other setting) has zero impact on the calibration itself
confusion #3 -- the Config Check is showing the results of Audyssey calibration, which shows that your speakers were detected as LARGE (i.e. with bass response to 40Hz or below). YOU manually changed them to Small/80Hz, probably based on recommendations from people like me wink.gif
So, all of the above does nothing to resolve why your speakers used to be detected as LARGE but are not coming in with a 120-150Hz crossover recommendation. LARGE is actually what you'd expect given the size and capability of those tower speakers, which should easily reach 40Hz. This must mean there is some room acoustic issue at play.
I assume you don't have any measurement capability on hand, so you might have to do some experimentation. What I would do (to make it quicker to run Audyssey) is to temporarily unplug all speakers but the front towers + subwoofer (2.1 setup). Then you can quickly do a one-position Audyssey measurement, let it calculate, and check the parameters. Repeat this processing, experimenting with different mic positions and/or speaker positions, and you might find the culprit.
Outside possibility, though not likely, is that there may be a blown woofer in one of the speakers that you hadn't noticed, but is now being picked up by the measurements,
Batpig, Thanks for clearing up my confusion(s). smile.gif
So having stumbled across the speaker EQ graphs in the 2113, I made some changes to try to affect the <100Hz problem with my LF spkr (see my post #4452). Now the speakers are being set by the AVR to Large/Full band.

"YOU manually changed them (on the 1909) to Small/80Hz, probably based on recommendations from people like me wink.gif" I'm sure. wink.gif

So, I think you may be saying that Large/Full range is what my 1909 would have set these same speakers at and I listened to some yahoo (with a strange name) on the web and manually changed them to small/ 80Hz crossover. If this is correct, I will you yet again 3 years later for repeating the same advice. ("Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most." wink.gif )
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post #4455 of 8296
1/3/13 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
I thought when SUbwoofer was set to Yes, The AVR automatically set the fronts to 'small'. Sub IS set to yes.

No, that's the way it SHOULD be but Audyssey doesn't control bass management. The receiver will set the speaker to small if it is detected as having low freq response down to at least 40Hz. Basically, people who buy tower speakers get pissed off when they are told their speakers are "small".

That's why all the Audyssey FAQ's recommend doing this manually afterwards.

Glad you figured out it was an acoustic issue, I would keep experimenting.
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post #4456 of 8296
1/3/13 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

That's why all the Audyssey FAQ's recommend doing this manually afterwards.
Glad you figured out it was an acoustic issue, I would keep experimenting.
Good to get reminded that I need to now go back and change the fronts to small/ 80Hz. Woo hoo.

What did you have in mind on experimenting? I think I need to try again with the ottoman back, just to confirm that was it or at least part of my <100Hz problem on the LF spkr. tks

Any recommendations on how to connect my:
a) XM receiver's two RCA/analogs to the 2113? I have them plugged in to the input RCA's labeled 'CD', but no go as 'CD' get me the CD player via optical input.
I got the VCR working being plugged into DVD audio and yellow video plugs. Since the other RCA analog inputs share names with already used digital sources, am I left only with the DVD audio input as an option for the XM? If I ever need to watch a Video tape, I guess I could just swap the XM's rca's with the VCR's.
Or does 'renaming' an HDMI input remove the conflict between matching names with the audio in labels?

Edit: Speaking of long lost "how to's", now off to relearn how to change settings on the Harmony One. smile.gif
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post #4457 of 8296
1/3/13 at 5:46pm
I've been having a hard time finding a blu-ray player that won't have a HDMI handshake issues with my 1913. Does anyone have any recommendations for blu-rays they know work with a 1913, preferably in the $100-$200 price range.

Just to say it as well cause I'm guessing someone will suggest it, it is not an option for me to hook the blu-ray directly to the TV with my setup. I have verified it is not an issue with the HDMI cable itself as well.

Thanks.
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post #4458 of 8296
1/3/13 at 5:47pm
More often then not, if the BDP has a "Deep Color Output" setting, then setting it to OFF resolves any video issues.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1334369/the-official-denon-avr-xx12-model-owners-thread/0_100#user_L18
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post #4459 of 8296
1/3/13 at 5:57pm
Thanks for the quick reply. I was under the impression the Deep Color Output was just an issue on PS3s. I'll have to double check that.

Assuming that isn't it, does anyone have any suggestions they could share? Thanks.
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post #4460 of 8296
1/3/13 at 6:43pm
Okay I just got a new 2113CI today and I have never used these type of speaker binding posts before.

I went ahead and got banana plugs for all wires but just to make sure,

Do you leave the AVR posts completely tightened and then insert the banana plug or do you loosen and then tighten to draw the banana plug forward?

I don't want to mess up something this simple, so any replies greatly appreciated.
Edited by spoidz - 1/3/13 at 7:09pm
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post #4461 of 8296
1/3/13 at 7:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Here is a good read on "Reference Level" from the Audyssey 101/FAQ: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_a3
Audyssey is doing a lot more than simply calibrating the volume, setting the levels is a pretty simple task, the magic is in the room EQ filters that correct the acoustic response.
The thing with "reference level" though is that it's only actually relevant when a source is mixed to that reference... in short, movies. And then that's when played from a "good" source like a Blu-ray or DVD... who knows what happens to the levels when you get a Netflix stream or a movie on a cable TV channel.
Other sources -- video games, music, broadcast TV, etc. -- are NOT mixed to any universal reference standard, unlike the film industry. So the actual levels could be all over the map, although they tend to be louder than film, and/or with more compressed dynamic range as was just discussed above. This is why there is a "reference level offset" setting which allows you to trim back how much boost Dyn EQ is applying for these non-film sources. This is a good read on that topic: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51750#user_g3
So in summary, you only know what "reference level" is with film sources, and in these cases reference level is calibrated specifically by Audyssey to be 0dB (or 80 on the regular scale) precisely. So if you listen to a movie at -15dB (or 65) on the volume dial, you know you are hearing the movie precisely at 15dB lower than what would have been heard by the mixer in the dubbing stage or in a calibrated cinema. Layering on Dynamic EQ then helps maintain the tonal balance, because as you turn the volume down for more realistic home volumes, you start to lose the sense of bass response, surround immersion, and also soft sounds can become less audible as they fall closer to the noise floor.

Good reading, and, thanks for the response.
The correlation you point out between the db scale and the old scale seems about right.
I had no idea "Reference Level" was a film industry only standard...I can't understand why, but it is what it is...
The information you provided will be very useful this weekend when I attempt to dial my system in.

Thanks again, Chuck
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post #4462 of 8296
1/3/13 at 7:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisjmccord View Post

I'm going to take back my unopened 1913 today, and see if they have a 2113 or 2313, probably just a 2113 is all I need, just the basics and get a great value.
Is $649 the best price I can expect to pay for it, via Best Buy or Amazon etc?

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR2113CI/DENON-AVR-2113CI-7.1ch-Networking-Receiver-w/AirPlay-3D-Ready/1.html
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post #4463 of 8296
1/3/13 at 7:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by spoidz View Post

Okay I just got a new 2113CI today and I have never used these type of speaker binding posts before.
I went ahead and got banana plugs for all wires but just to make sure,
Do you leave the AVR posts completely tightened and then insert the banana plug or do you loosen and then tighten to draw the banana plug forward?
I don't want to mess up something this simple, so any replies greatly appreciated.

Posts should be tight before inserting the banana plugs...that kinda sounded dirty. wink.gif
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post #4464 of 8296
1/3/13 at 7:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Question:
I have 2 subs and my main listening position is not equidistant from each sub. One is about 5' away, the other about 10'.
Using my 2113ci, what should I set the sub distance to be? Or, should I just leave it at the distance Audyssey calibrated?

Anybody?
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post #4465 of 8296
1/3/13 at 8:03pm
Alan P,

Thanks for the info, I couldn't find it anywhere in the thread or manuals
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post #4466 of 8296
1/3/13 at 8:13pm
Just got the Panasonic DMP BDT-220 on sale for $79.99 at Fry's. It works amazingly well with my new 1913.
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post #4467 of 8296
1/3/13 at 8:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

Question:
I have 2 subs and my main listening position is not equidistant from each sub. One is about 5' away, the other about 10'.
Using my 2113ci, what should I set the sub distance to be? Or, should I just leave it at the distance Audyssey calibrated?

Anybody?

Unless you have a way to measure what's happening, you are best served just leaving the distance where Audyssey sets it.
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post #4468 of 8296
1/3/13 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/DENAVR2113CI/DENON-AVR-2113CI-7.1ch-Networking-Receiver-w/AirPlay-3D-Ready/1.html

Refurbished and 1 year warranty, no thanks. I want a legit Denon dealer, so I guess $649 is the price, not a big deal, thats a good place to be, just wondered if they went on sale anywhere?
I'll keep an eye out, I have some time.
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post #4469 of 8296
1/3/13 at 9:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by davekro View Post

I ordered my 2113 12/20 from ABT for $548 w/ free shpg. Check if they still have some. Electronics Expo told me at that time they were out but had some due in mid January ($550), so you could call them too.

Whats ABT? Are they a licensed dealer with Denon? Same with Electronics Expo? I think EE is from batpigs recommendations.
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post #4470 of 8296
1/3/13 at 9:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jake51 View Post

Strider: About the merit of Denon Link HD
They like it a lot in this German review (kind of translated by Google, then refined by me smile.gif): Thanks to Denon Link HD, the Denon AV receiver acts as the master clock. It alone determines the clock, which means that timing inaccuracies are a thing of the past. Also, the dynamic range increases. In listening tests, we were hearing extremely precise, vivid and spatially smooth playback - especially with current HD audio formats Denon Link enhances the audio quality noticeably.

I suppose you also think that gold plated oxygen free speaker cables make a difference?

All you're doing is regurgitating the marketing claptrap. The only reason why people think it sounds better is because they want it to sound better. HDMI uses TMDS signalling, which ensures that the AVR can precisely recover the timing from the HDMI signal. No external clocking required. There are always enough transitions to ensure full clock recovery. As far as an "Increase in Dynamic Range" that's a load of barnyard droppings as well. By definition, the dynamic range of your signal is governed by the bit depth of your source material. If your source material was digitized at 24bits, you have about 144dB dynamic range available to you, which is greater than the dynamic range of human hearing. It has NOTHING what so ever do do with timing accuracy.

All the slight timing errors will produce is very small amount of phase noise. Fortunately, the human brain is very bad at discerning phase noise, otherwise Dolby PLII sound-tracks would be hell to listen to. (The surround channels are encoded onto PLII by playing with the phase in the mix).
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ