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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 162

post #4831 of 7904
1/16/13 at 11:49am
I'm planning on getting a Yamaha RX-V373, but I can get a Denon 2113 for £100 more. The speakers I'll be using are Polk Audio TSI-100's with the CS10 center channel. I'll only be using 5.1 sound. (for now)

The main reason I'm thinking of getting the Denon is the "discrete 95 watts x 7 channels" vs the V373's "non-discrete 85 watts x 2 channels, 0.9% THD"

Should I go with the Yamaha or the Denon?
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post #4832 of 7904
1/16/13 at 11:52am
Thread Starter 
The main reason you cite is the worst reason possible wink.gif

although the 2113 will have more powerful amps, the main reason would be because you are going from the bottom-of-the-line entry level Yamaha to a much more fully featured mid-level Denon. You will get a lot more features but, most importantly, Audyssey MultEQ XT room correction.

It's really not a fair fight in this sense, as you are comparing entry-level to mid-level.
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post #4833 of 7904
1/16/13 at 11:56am
Well, since you're posting in the Denon thread I'm guessing your gonna get mostly Denon recommendations. wink.gif

Sorry, but I'm not familiar with the Yamaha, so can't really help you there.

A4L still has the 2113 refurb for much less than retail if that helps sway your decision at all. I bought the same refurb about a month ago with no regrets.
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post #4834 of 7904
1/16/13 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The main reason you cite is the worst reason possible wink.gif

Could you explain if that's good or bad and if so in what way. I have very little knowledge about AVR's, as this is going to be my first, thanks. smile.gif
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post #4835 of 7904
1/16/13 at 12:24pm
Thread Starter 
My point is that most consumers focus on amp wattage but it's actually a relatively unimportant spec. Power is actually logarithmic -- you need 10 times the power to raise the volume 10 decibels. So the difference between 85 watts and 95 watts is almost meaningless in practical terms.

Furthermore, in actual usage you likely aren't going to be close to using that *max* wattage rating. A typical speaker like your Polks will have what's called a sensitivity rating of 90dB. That means it produces 90dB of SPL (sound pressure) at 1 meter distance with ONE watt of power. Going with what I said above, it will produce 100dB with 10 watts, 110dB with 100 watts, etc. 90dB is already VERY loud. There are some other variables to consider as I'm giving a really simplified explanation, but the bottom line is that in most typical "moderate volume living room" setups, you are likely not even going to use 10 watts per channel... so the difference between a 90 watt/ch receiver and a 100 watt/ch receiver is really irrelevant.

Thus, your decision should typically be based on FEATURES, not amp specs.
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post #4836 of 7904
1/16/13 at 1:05pm
Thanks for the help. Went with the 2113, and with amazon's 7 day free returns, I'm sure if any issues crop up it'll all work out. smile.gif
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post #4837 of 7904
1/16/13 at 2:18pm
For Zone 2 capabilities, is there much of a difference between the Denon 2113, 2213 or 3313? Where I am going with this is, my wife is very set on having the ability to listen to music throughout the house. I like the idea of not jeopordizing the AVR and being able to use the main speakers differently. Our house was not wired for pre-built ceiling speakers. What I am thinking can be done is I could potentially look at wireless speakers to hook up to the AVR on zone 2. That way you can still have that "whole home music" effect without having to instal physical wires all over the place. I am not looking for some acoustical wonder from these speakers and more for music playing while guests are over. I admit, I am a bit of a noob but want to make sure I dont buy the wrong thing. I am leaning on the 3313 because of the pre-outs for an external amp. Anyway, if my assumptions are correct. Do people have recommendations on what speakers whould work well in this setup or if there is something I am overlooking? You guys all rock! I love these forums. i am about week or two in and I know I am not leaving. I can't wait to get my first HT setup so I can start the upgrade process you all refer to smile.gif
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post #4838 of 7904
1/16/13 at 3:02pm
Thread Starter 
The main differences between these models (focusing only on the RCA pre-outs) are:

1) the 2113 has a basic set of Zone 2 pre-outs that output a fixed volume. You need to provide external volume control and have no ability to adjust bass/treble, etc.

2) the 2313 also just has a set of Zone 2 pre-outs, but also offers the ability to control volume via the pre-outs. Additionally, you have some extra options for Zone control like bass/treble adjustments and the ability to select mono or stereo output.

3) the 3313 offers the same options as the 2313, but adds a 3rd zone

All that said, if you are looking for a WIRELESS solution to send music to multiple rooms, I would not even worry about the built-in capabilities of the AVR and instead look at a 3rd party system. If you have all your music in iTunes and are using iDevices (iPhone, iPad, etc) then the obvious solution is just to go all Airplay. All you would need to do to put music in a room (assuming there's WiFi coverage in there) is to add an Airport Express, a small amp and speakers. (and if you get powered speakers then you don't even need the amp).

Then you can easily control music in any room using an iPhone or iPad.

If you aren't in the "apple universe" then I would probably go with Sonos, which is super slick and allows you to easily stream music around the house to any Sonos device.
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post #4839 of 7904
1/16/13 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by njtv View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by njtv View Post

It's a Samsung bd-emc7. I reset it 3 times and still sending stereo signal

This is the audio setup page with defaults. Sending stereo signals.


I changed them to bitstream unprocessed which I read to do on a google search, and same result. Still stereo. Should I change it to bitstream re-encoded DTS or Dolby d?

Here is another shot

How about PCM down sampling? Dynamic range control and down mixing mode? Thanks again for the help


This is very


Ok I got it fixed. Bluray player is now sending DTS hd signal out. I disconnected and unplugged the bluray following Samsung website. Then reconnected and plugged in. changed the audio to bitstream unprocessed.

Now however the audio is slightly ahead of the tv picture. Guess I have on search how to fix that now!!!

The delay in the video relative to the audio is caused by the time needed to do video processing in your TV. There are two things you can do to minimize this.
1. There should be settings in the TV to minimize that processing time (e.g. disable noise filtering, set sharpness to 0, etc) Some TVs have a "Game" setting which turns off all video processing.
2. Change the "lip sync delay" setting in your receiver.
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post #4840 of 7904
1/16/13 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
2. Change the "lip sync delay" setting in your receiver.

Just to avoid terminological confusion, there are TWO settings that need to be kept distinct:

1) the "Auto Lip Sync" setting in the "HDMI Settings" menu -- this won't help him here (I'm frankly not even sure if it does anything useful!), it's an On/Off setting that is global.

2) the "Audio Delay" setting in the "Audio" menu. This is the setting he's looking for, as it can be set variably from 0-200ms and is memorized per source. According the manual the delay range is reduced to 0-100ms when "Auto Lip Sync" is turned on.

Ideally though you are correct that he can turn off some unnecessary video processing in the TV itself to reduce or eliminate the delay.
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post #4841 of 7904
1/16/13 at 3:39pm
batpig,

Thanks a lot for the clarification! I have to admit that I didn't remember the exact details and was too lazy to look for them in the appropriate manual.
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post #4842 of 7904
1/16/13 at 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The main differences between these models (focusing only on the RCA pre-outs) are:

1) the 2113 has a basic set of Zone 2 pre-outs that output a fixed volume. You need to provide external volume control and have no ability to adjust bass/treble, etc.

2) the 2313 also just has a set of Zone 2 pre-outs, but also offers the ability to control volume via the pre-outs. Additionally, you have some extra options for Zone control like bass/treble adjustments and the ability to select mono or stereo output.

3) the 3313 offers the same options as the 2313, but adds a 3rd zone

All that said, if you are looking for a WIRELESS solution to send music to multiple rooms, I would not even worry about the built-in capabilities of the AVR and instead look at a 3rd party system. If you have all your music in iTunes and are using iDevices (iPhone, iPad, etc) then the obvious solution is just to go all Airplay. All you would need to do to put music in a room (assuming there's WiFi coverage in there) is to add an Airport Express, a small amp and speakers. (and if you get powered speakers then you don't even need the amp).

Then you can easily control music in any room using an iPhone or iPad.

If you aren't in the "apple universe" then I would probably go with Sonos, which is super slick and allows you to easily stream music around the house to any Sonos device.

Thank you, this confirmed what i was kind of thinking. I was hoping there was a silver bullet in the AVR solution though. That way my wife would be more on board smile.gif She hasn't asked me how much all of this costs just yet. I hope it stays that way. Thanks Batpig, you rock!
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post #4843 of 7904
1/16/13 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by elmorage View Post

Having an issue with a two week old 1713, couldn't find help in the troubleshooting thread. The unit randomly becomes unresponsive to input commands either from the remote or front panel. Sometimes it is source changes that won't register, other times it is the power button. It's as if the whole unit locks up. Should I just return it?

First try unplugging it for 10 minutes (soft reset, no settings changed). And if still no joy, try resetting the microprocessor (p. 126 OM) after saving the config.dat file to a PC using the Web Control feature (pp. 76-77 OM). If still no joy after all that, then go ahead and exchange it.
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post #4844 of 7904
1/16/13 at 8:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak Gara View Post

Thanks for the help. Went with the 2113, and with amazon's 7 day free returns, I'm sure if any issues crop up it'll all work out. smile.gif

buy the most power you can afford in an avr... get one with pre out so can always add amp power in the future.... clean power sonic nirvana!!!!
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post #4845 of 7904
1/17/13 at 2:25am
^^
This advice really only applies to a very small minority as for the vast majority, pre-amp outputs will never be required and the power in the 2113 (or even lower model) will be more than sufficient then what they would ever need. smile.gif
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post #4846 of 7904
1/17/13 at 7:52am
I narrowed down my receiver search to the Denon 1613. I went to Bestbuy last night and they had two 1613's open box. I asked the 13 year old sales guy how low they could go and he came back and said $250. I pulled the trigger and brought it home. I unhooked my Onkyo 604 and with my excitement, I didn't mark all the speaker wire. After a few frustrating search for speaker wire, I got the 1613 hooked up. I ran Audyssey and popped in Elton John's 60 concert bluray. It sounded like crap and I feared I was going to have to take it back. I then learned how to turn the speakers to small and set the crossover to 80 and it sounded awesome. It made my jbl l830 speakers come to life. I sat there with a stupid grin on my face for 45 minutes.

I haven't had a chance to read this entire thread and I haven't memorized the owners manual yet, but I have a quick question. My sub was set by audyssey at 24' and was down to -12. I turned the gain down below 50% and ran audyssey again with the same settings. Should I set the sub even lower?
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post #4847 of 7904
1/17/13 at 7:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sojodave View Post

Should I set the sub even lower?

Yup. Keep going until you get Audyssey to set it between -3/+3.
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post #4848 of 7904
1/17/13 at 8:17am
so i havent set my equipment up yet and im in the process of buying a new house. closing is march 8th if all goes well.
i downloaded pandora for my samsung galaxy s3 and i knowticed the 2113ci and all others usually say they are compatable with iphones. does that mean i can not use my S3 even if i plug it in to a usb port and start playing the pandora station?
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post #4849 of 7904
1/17/13 at 9:29am
^^^

The 2113 has an app for Pandora built in, no need to use your phone at all. wink.gif
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post #4850 of 7904
1/17/13 at 9:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Just to avoid terminological confusion, there are TWO settings that need to be kept distinct:

1) the "Auto Lip Sync" setting in the "HDMI Settings" menu -- this won't help him here (I'm frankly not even sure if it does anything useful!), it's an On/Off setting that is global.

2) the "Audio Delay" setting in the "Audio" menu. This is the setting he's looking for, as it can be set variably from 0-200ms and is memorized per source. According the manual the delay range is reduced to 0-100ms when "Auto Lip Sync" is turned on.

Ideally though you are correct that he can turn off some unnecessary video processing in the TV itself to reduce or eliminate the delay.



thanks very much. i was able to find the audio delay and played around with it for about 40 minutes last night. i think i got it ok now, 120ms delay. wish there was a way to pin it down exactly. i was not able to find the "auto lip sync" option. i'd rather not mess with the video settings on the tv. i used some pretty detailed settings found in another thread here for my tv
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post #4851 of 7904
1/17/13 at 11:49am
FWIW i found THIS listing for a 2113 for $499 including shipping. Seems like a good deal to me unless someone knows of better. Or when the xx14 models will be out.
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post #4852 of 7904
1/17/13 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCHellblazer View Post

FWIW i found THIS listing for a 2113 for $499 including shipping. Seems like a good deal to me unless someone knows of better. Or when the xx14 models will be out.

I'm always surprised that people don't care about warranty service... sure, one hopes it's never needed. But I personally wouldn't purchase from a place where Denon will not honor the warranty.
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post #4853 of 7904
1/17/13 at 12:06pm
I'm about to purchase a 1513--I'm aware it has no Audyssey, but it's kind of a stopgap receiver until I can afford a much better one.

Is there anything I need to know about potential HDMI handshake problems (which I'm very nervous about, as they seem to be common on many receivers)?

I'm connecting a Panny 220 Blu-ray (HDMI), Panny GT50 TV (optical), and an Apple TV (HDMI). FYI I'll probably be driving the little Andrew Jones Pio bookshelves.
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post #4854 of 7904
1/17/13 at 12:15pm
@batpig & @jdsmoothie;
My current HT setup is, Sharp 80" 3D, Denon AVR-3310ci, NHT Power5 (200watt x 5), B&W 804s, B&W CMC2, Velodyne sub, and HTPC.

I was looking at upgrading my 3310ci so i can get 3D through my AVR, but i was thinking instead of upgrading it, i could just by a BD Player with dual HDMI and just run the audio optical to the 3310ci and the hdmi to the TV.

Upgrading from the 3310ci to something like AVR-3311ci, AVR-3312ci, AVR-3313ci, or even going one step down to the 2313ci. The audio/video chipsets from upgrading from 3310 to 3311, 3312, 3313 or 2313, is there that big of an improvement in quality?

Hopefully this isnt confusing, basically what im asking is, get the BD Player Dual HDMI or update my AVR?
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post #4855 of 7904
1/17/13 at 3:35pm
Thread Starter 
Honestly I would recommend upgrading the receiver. The 3310 had some issues -- defective network card, and only regular MultEQ. Upgrading to the 3312 or 3313 will get you better networking (including AirPlay, Pandora, etc), better sound quality with MultEQ XT, iPad / smartphone app control, more flexibility for DSX speaker installs, etc. I wouldn't necessarily say overall quality will be better in terms of build or amps, but you will get more features and reliability.

You can't go to the 2313 because it doesn't have pre-outs for your NHT Power5 amplifier, you have to stick to the 33xx level or higher. I don't know what your budget is but if you REALLY want to step it up in sound quality I would start looking around for any leftover 4311ci that are floating around. That will step you up to MultEQ XT32, the best room correction available, and also allow you to expand your system beyond 7 channels. And if you add a second sub it has sophisticated dual sub correction (SubEQ HT).

Won't be a huge difference in video performance as the 3310 already has the very competent ABT video chip.
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post #4856 of 7904
1/17/13 at 3:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenA01 View Post

I'm about to purchase a 1513--I'm aware it has no Audyssey, but it's kind of a stopgap receiver until I can afford a much better one.

Is there anything I need to know about potential HDMI handshake problems (which I'm very nervous about, as they seem to be common on many receivers)?

I'm connecting a Panny 220 Blu-ray (HDMI), Panny GT50 TV (optical), and an Apple TV (HDMI). FYI I'll probably be driving the little Andrew Jones Pio bookshelves.


The thing with HDMI handshake problems is that they aren't consistent or predictable. You might be perfectly fine, and experience no issues. Or you might. The good news is that most components have no problems, it's almost always isolated to either Cable/Sat boxes or HTPC's.

I know this is only a stopgap but I would still strongly recommend against the 1513. Others have reported finding 1613 open box models for under $250 at Best Buy, or you can find good deals on refurb models at Accessories4less.com with 1-year warranties. You can get a 1612 refurb for $199 and it will crush the 1513 in features and sound quality. The difference that MultEQ + Dynamic EQ/Vol makes in terms of real world sound quality is profound, it's really worth it.
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post #4857 of 7904
1/17/13 at 4:12pm
Hi guys - I have a 2113 and have been noticing that the scaler does not seem to activate whenever I initially fire up my components to watch satellite. I have the scaler set to output 1080p to my Panny plasma. If I cycle the scaler on/off everything appears to work fine. Is it possibly the order that I am turning components on that is causing the issue?
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post #4858 of 7904
1/17/13 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnCHellblazer View Post

FWIW i found THIS listing for a 2113 for $499 including shipping. Seems like a good deal to me unless someone knows of better. Or when the xx14 models will be out.

ABT will get pretty darn close to that with the benefit of being an authorized dealer.
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post #4859 of 7904
1/17/13 at 4:18pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by stixx View Post

Hi guys - I have a 2113 and have been noticing that the scaler does not seem to activate whenever I initially fire up my components to watch satellite. I have the scaler set to output 1080p to my Panny plasma. If I cycle the scaler on/off everything appears to work fine. Is it possibly the order that I am turning components on that is causing the issue?

Definitely sounds like an HDMI handshake issue. You can test this for yourself by simply changing the order/timing of power on for your components.
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post #4860 of 7904
1/17/13 at 8:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

The main differences between these models (focusing only on the RCA pre-outs) are:

1) the 2113 has a basic set of Zone 2 pre-outs that output a fixed volume. You need to provide external volume control and have no ability to adjust bass/treble, etc.

2) the 2313 also just has a set of Zone 2 pre-outs, but also offers the ability to control volume via the pre-outs. Additionally, you have some extra options for Zone control like bass/treble adjustments and the ability to select mono or stereo output.

3) the 3313 offers the same options as the 2313, but adds a 3rd zone

All that said, if you are looking for a WIRELESS solution to send music to multiple rooms, I would not even worry about the built-in capabilities of the AVR and instead look at a 3rd party system. If you have all your music in iTunes and are using iDevices (iPhone, iPad, etc) then the obvious solution is just to go all Airplay. All you would need to do to put music in a room (assuming there's WiFi coverage in there) is to add an Airport Express, a small amp and speakers. (and if you get powered speakers then you don't even need the amp).

Then you can easily control music in any room using an iPhone or iPad.

If you aren't in the "apple universe" then I would probably go with Sonos, which is super slick and allows you to easily stream music around the house to any Sonos device.

I'm thinking about going with the 2113. I would like to eventually run zone 2 outside on the patio. How loud is the fixed volume? How would I provide external volume control?
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ