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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 167

post #4981 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

If I am reading this correctly, the Comcast guy has no clue. A single port router is just that, a router. A router with multiple ports is a router and a switch built into one. Most home networks run C class private addresses ie: 192.168.xxx.xxx. These addresses are not meant to to be routed, some routers will and some routers won't work with private addressing, and if yours will work with private addressing you need to set up a routing table. Dump the second router, install a 10/100/1000 switch and speed won't be the issue. If what you have downstairs is a true "hub" that can cause speed issues.

Thank you. Will I need Comcast to change the settings on the modem/router to take it off bridge mode? I will give the switch a shot; maybe first trying a direct connection to the receiver from the back of the comcast router. And if that works, then add the switch.
post #4982 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

1. Yup. The manual is misleading in this respect as any "high speed" HDMI cable can be used (ie. don't pay the extra money on a cable with ethernet capability as this feature has not been implemented on any current model AVR Denon or otherwise).
2. Of course it's intended for surround sound use. The limitation however, is that the HDMI(ARC) audio from the TV is limited to only stereo 2.0 audio on many TVs while using the optical audio out can pass DD 5.1 in some cases.
3. If your Roku and Apple TV are connected to the AVR as you indicate, then ARC audio does not come into play.

Tks JD for your response. re 3. Your response makes so much sense now that I think of it. If the HDMI from my media player Roku is going to the 2113, then I should get sound and video from the 2113. What happened when I did the install as such, I wasn't getting audio from the roku when I accessed media player from the remote. That started me to look for other solutions ie. ARC from the TV to the 2113 or digital output from the TV to the 2113. From what I have recently learned, I should forget about all this and work on getting audio from my Roku from the 2113 rather than the TV. Is this correct and if so, why would I not be getting audio and only video? Input assign needs tweaking?

Sorry, really not good as interfacing all my components at best standard practice as you can see.
post #4983 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bpolack View Post

Well kindof.. The new house came pre wired with ethernet. The comcast router upstairs has a single port which feeds to a panel/hub in the basement. The Comcast guy said I would be better off connecting another router there with multiple ports to feed the house (Than the alternative of a slower switch?) So basically the Dlink is the wired feed; AND I only connect wirelessly directly to the Comcast Router.

As others have posted, all your devices need to be on the same subnet. The Comcast single ethernet port and the Comcast wireless are on one subnet, and the Dlink ethernet ports and wireless are on ANOTHER subnet. There are many ways to solve this. One would be to connect your devices wirelessly only to the Dlink and the AVR to the Dlink as you are doing. If you have the ethernet cabling in place, another would be to get rid of the Dlink, connect the AVR to the single ethernet port on your Comcast, and continue to wireless connect to the Comcast. There are other ways too...
post #4984 of 10468
Hi, I've had a quick look through the thread, but not getting anywhere. Wonder if anyone can help, I'll be calling richer sounds tomorrow as thats where we bought it from. We are struggling with the 2 zones. They are both wired in and working OK, but can't get them to play different sources.

As soon as I select a different source for one zone, it changes on the other aswell. Driving me mad! How am I supposed to do it? I've tried using AVR Remote app on my phone, I've tried on the denon itself, I've tried on the denon remote.

Also, when I select 'media server' on the denon... i then can't do anything further... can't navigate in and select folders / songs which I was expecting.. however, if I select 'server' on AVR Remote app on my phone, I get my readynas come up on the denon screen. How come I can get the 'server' to appear through AVR remote, but not through the denon itself? So confused. If there's a thread you can point me towards, or some tips, that would be very welcome.

What I'm trying to achieve, is ideally... a separate internet radio station playing in each zone. However, if this isn't possible, internet radio in 1 zone, and streamed music from the server (our readynas) in the other? Is this do-able ?

I feel like I'm missing a GUI to control all this... is there nothing I can use apart from going to the ip address of the denon on my laptop?
post #4985 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

You can make a wired connection from the laptop to the AVR or try the following ...

http://ludwigstuyck.wordpress.com/2012/07/27/streaming-spotify-to-dlna-device-over-network/

Thanks for the link jd. I downloaded the program in the article (Jamcast). I wasn't able to get it working 100%, but I was on my way and it seems like a good program, especially for Grooveshark, as it has a direct login. They give a full 14 day free trial w/out having to give credit card info for anyone that wants to give it a try. Anyway, after downloading and using Jamcast, I tried to watch a film streaming from a website on my laptop to my TV via HDMI. I do this a lot and I always get sound from my AVR/5.1 speakers. I always have the volume muted on my laptop. Now I noticed I get no sound from my AVR/Speakers when I do this.

I goggled the issue and tried messing w/ the Sound menu on Control Panel on Windows, but that didn't work. Something w/ the Virtual Sound Card settings w/ Jamcast must have changed the settings. It happened right after I installed Jamcast so I know it has something to do w/ it. I uninstalled Jamcast and removed it from my computer and still have the same issue.

I'd appreciate any help.
post #4986 of 10468
Alden,

Invoking a restore point usually eliminates quirks introduced by poorly designed software packages. Some installs automatically create restore points, but at the worst you can go back to the one created just before the most recent Microsoft security update. Then reinstall the update, of course!
post #4987 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Alden,

Invoking a restore point usually eliminates quirks introduced by poorly designed software packages. Some installs automatically create restore points, but at the worst you can go back to the one created just before the most recent Microsoft security update. Then reinstall the update, of course!

Thanks Selden. But as a noob when it comes to this, I have no idea how to do this. Any chance you could give me the steps?
post #4988 of 10468
Based on Batpig's great comparisons, I would like a 2113 versus a 2112 for my first AVR. I hate to spend the extra $50 and the 1712 is still tempting at $310. My router is an internal wall away from the AVR and it seems silly not to have ethernet ability. The 1713 adds e'net and XT but drops back to 5.1. I only need 5.1 but like the 7.1 ability for a second zone. Still learning so hard to intelligently evaluate the options. TV and movies, no Apple or games.

Should I buy now or will prices have a worthwhile drop by April/May when the XX14s come out? Right now, using A4L prices, the XX12s are ~$20-$50 less than the XX13s. $450 doesn't break the bank, just want best value as I continue look for better speakers.
post #4989 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by aidenNYC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Alden,

Invoking a restore point usually eliminates quirks introduced by poorly designed software packages. Some installs automatically create restore points, but at the worst you can go back to the one created just before the most recent Microsoft security update. Then reinstall the update, of course!

Thanks Selden. But as a noob when it comes to this, I have no idea how to do this. Any chance you could give me the steps?

The instructions below are for Win7. Win8 is similar.. XP is more involved.

Instructions: http://pcsupport.about.com/od/fixtheproblem/ht/system-restore-windows-7.htm

Restore point info: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa378910%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Restore point FAQ: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/System-Restore-frequently-asked-questions#
post #4990 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The instructions below are for Win7. Win8 is similar.. XP is more involved.

Instructions: http://pcsupport.about.com/od/fixtheproblem/ht/system-restore-windows-7.htm

Restore point info: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa378910%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Restore point FAQ: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/System-Restore-frequently-asked-questions#

Thanks. I was able to create a restore point, but there are no other restore points listed, just the one i just created. I clicked on the box to find other restore point and no other ones came up. I created the restore point and restarted but still have the same issue. There are no restore points from before I installed the program, so the new one I created wouldn't have any affect (i assume, but don't know).

What I also noticed is when I have the laptop connected to the TV and the receiver turned to Cbl/Sat, I am getting the audio from the TV channel that is on, even though I am on a different input (the input for the hdmi cable to the laptop), not the receiver input. So I am hearing the TV audio but viewing my laptop on the TV. As far as I can remember I always had the receiver on Cab/Sat and the input of the HDMI cable from the laptop to the TV and had audio from my receiver, not the TV.
Edited by aidenNYC - 1/22/13 at 10:32am
post #4991 of 10468
I have a question about the 2113's Bi-Amping ability.

The 2113 I got gives you many options how to use the last 2 speakers in a 7.1 setup. Zone 2, next to your Fronts (Fronts B), above your fronts (Front Height), Surround Back, and Bi-Amp.

Does setting it to Bi-Amp then split the Fronts to Woofer and Tweeter on the Crossover section of the options menu? Because if not, then surly the same data will still be being sent to both the woofer and the tweeter, the woofer will still try to play the high notes, and the tweeter will still try to play the low notes.

Not that it matters, as my TSI-100's aren't Bi-ampable. (yet monitor 30's are?)
post #4992 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ak Gara View Post

I have a question about the 2113's Bi-Amping ability.

The 2113 I got gives you many options how to use the last 2 speakers in a 7.1 setup. Zone 2, next to your Fronts (Fronts B), above your fronts (Front Height), Surround Back, and Bi-Amp.

Does setting it to Bi-Amp then split the Fronts to Woofer and Tweeter on the Crossover section of the options menu? Because if not, then surly the same data will still be being sent to both the woofer and the tweeter, the woofer will still try to play the high notes, and the tweeter will still try to play the low notes.

Not that it matters, as my TSI-100's aren't Bi-ampable. (yet monitor 30's are?)

It's a passive biamplification, without the benefits that an active crossover would provide, nor the benefits that discrete power supplies would offer. In short, while there is a capability there, many of us do not see the point in using it.
post #4993 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewleh View Post

Hi, I've had a quick look through the thread, but not getting anywhere. Wonder if anyone can help, I'll be calling richer sounds tomorrow as thats where we bought it from. We are struggling with the 2 zones. They are both wired in and working OK, but can't get them to play different sources.

As soon as I select a different source for one zone, it changes on the other aswell. Driving me mad! How am I supposed to do it? I've tried using AVR Remote app on my phone, I've tried on the denon itself, I've tried on the denon remote.

Also, when I select 'media server' on the denon... i then can't do anything further... can't navigate in and select folders / songs which I was expecting.. however, if I select 'server' on AVR Remote app on my phone, I get my readynas come up on the denon screen. How come I can get the 'server' to appear through AVR remote, but not through the denon itself? So confused. If there's a thread you can point me towards, or some tips, that would be very welcome.

What I'm trying to achieve, is ideally... a separate internet radio station playing in each zone. However, if this isn't possible, internet radio in 1 zone, and streamed music from the server (our readynas) in the other? Is this do-able ?

I feel like I'm missing a GUI to control all this... is there nothing I can use apart from going to the ip address of the denon on my laptop?

You didn't mention what model you have, but since you mention TWO different additional zones does that mean you have the 3313ci? Or when you talk about "2 zones" are you referring to main zone and zone 2?

Regardless, it sounds like the issue is simply that you are trying to do two separate NETWORK sources to each zone, which is not possible. The receiver can only support one active network stream at a time. As a test, for example, try playing a non-network source (e.g. your cable box or Blu-ray player) in main zone and then see if you can fire up internet radio independently in the other zone.
post #4994 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by b33b View Post

Based on Batpig's great comparisons, I would like a 2113 versus a 2112 for my first AVR. I hate to spend the extra $50 and the 1712 is still tempting at $310. My router is an internal wall away from the AVR and it seems silly not to have ethernet ability. The 1713 adds e'net and XT but drops back to 5.1. I only need 5.1 but like the 7.1 ability for a second zone. Still learning so hard to intelligently evaluate the options. TV and movies, no Apple or games.

Should I buy now or will prices have a worthwhile drop by April/May when the XX14s come out? Right now, using A4L prices, the XX12s are ~$20-$50 less than the XX13s. $450 doesn't break the bank, just want best value as I continue look for better speakers.

IMO if you are ready to buy now go for it, no sense waiting for 4-5+ months for the new models. I don't think there are any earth-shattering new features on the way, if you are concerned about "future proof" then getting a current CI model for 4k support/scaling makes sense and should ease any concerns about the new models.
post #4995 of 10468
Thanks Batpig, I wasn't worried about new features just lower prices for the 2112/3.
post #4996 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You didn't mention what model you have, but since you mention TWO different additional zones does that mean you have the 3313ci? Or when you talk about "2 zones" are you referring to main zone and zone 2?

Regardless, it sounds like the issue is simply that you are trying to do two separate NETWORK sources to each zone, which is not possible. The receiver can only support one active network stream at a time. As a test, for example, try playing a non-network source (e.g. your cable box or Blu-ray player) in main zone and then see if you can fire up internet radio independently in the other zone.

Damnit. This is exactly what we are trying to do. And what I was beginning to suspect. (We have the 2113, just 2 zones).

So, what would people advise to get internet radio in 2 zones? What's the cheapest option I guess I mean. Buy a standalone internet radio, and wire it in via the 'aux' input?
post #4997 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewleh View Post

Damnit. This is exactly what we are trying to do. And what I was beginning to suspect. (We have the 2113, just 2 zones).

So, what would people advise to get internet radio in 2 zones? What's the cheapest option I guess I mean. Buy a standalone internet radio, and wire it in via the 'aux' input?

Sorry.. just to add some more in fo on our setup, incase it helps..

We have 2 floors in the building. And these are our 2 zones. Main zone upstairs, zone 2 downstairs. We also have a readynas duo on the network with lots of music. So was hoping to play music from the readynas in main zone (upstairs), and internet radio in zone2 (downstairs). But obviously both are NETWORK sources like you said. We could move the readynas down, so it is wired in next to the Denon.. could we then wire it in as some form of 'local' storage/source and get around the 2 'network' problem? Hmm, back to the drawing board if not. Really welcome any advice, as I'm so lost with all this smile.gif
post #4998 of 10468
Thread Starter 
A little story about sound quality...

Yesterday I had the day off for MLK Day and I ended up at a local Best Buy which has a Magnolia department. Apparently all of the employees were on vacation too because there was nobody around... which is how I like it, because the BB sales monkeys only make my life harder when I'm browsing.

So I wandered into the empty "high end" Magnolia listening room which contains a wall full of receivers as well as multiple different subs, speakers, etc. on tap to test out. There is a touch screen computer interface to control what combo of source + receiver + speakers are being used, which was pretty easy for me to figure out, so I fired up their demo disc and started listening to the various speakers.

I noticed they had four Denon models available -- 1713, 2113, 2313, and 3313 (interestingly, the non XT models, 1613 and 1913, are in the "regular" Best Buy stereo section). I confirmed that all four receivers were set up identically (the Best Buy monkeys just leave them at factory defaults but I verified speaker trims, bass management, etc. just in case) and set them all to DIRECT mode to eliminate any other variables. I set each receiver to the same obnoxiously loud volume (65-70, or -10 to -15 on the dB scale) and cranked some music in 'pure' 2 channel stereo. After futzing around with various speakers, I settled on a pair of B&W CM9 towers which are extremely nice, $3k/pair of tower speakers with strong bass and a very detailed, revealing sound. I made sure that there was no subwoofer or additional speakers playing, so this was as pure of a test of full-range 2ch stereo quality possible.

With each receiver set to the identical volume, playing the identical source, all in DIRECT mode with these very nice speakers playing some high quality music demo material, I was able to easily toggle between any of the four Denon models and see if I could hear any difference in "raw" sound quality.

Bottom line: I couldn't. Even cranked to close-to-uncomfortably-loud volumes with a $3k pair of speakers, the little $449 msrp 1713 sounded identical with the $1,200 msrp 3313ci.

The touch screen setup allowed me to do near instantaneous (1-2 second pause while switching) A/B comparisons of any pair of receivers I wanted... so I tried 3313 vs. 2313, 2113 vs. 1713, 3313 vs. 1713, etc. There were times when switching from the 3313 to the 1713 I thought I detected that the more expensive unit had a bit more refinement, perhaps a little more "air" in the treble and a bit more "fullness" in the bass... but I found it difficult to hear this reliably and I doubt it would have held up in a blind test if I had a partner to do the switching for me.

Complicating this potentially tiny difference however, I was examining the front panel displays and noticed that the 3313 read "ANA" whereas the 1713 showed "DIG / PCM", meaning that the 3313 model was hooked up with analog RCA's whereas the 1713 had an optical digital input. So it is entirely possible (even likely) that any minuscule perceived difference could simply have been due to the ADC stage in the 3313.

As we know, all of these receivers have the same basic components, same DACs, same DSP chips, etc. so this really confirmed for me that there is no real difference in "raw" quality among these consumer units. So don't pay more for the higher level unit unless you actually will use the extra features!! To be fair, there could be a situation where the sturdier amp section of the 2313/3313 models (which are larger and heavier and have a different chassis) could provide some small benefit, but I think it's safe to assume that any difference in SQ among the current Denon lineup will come only from different room correction (regular MultEQ vs. XT) or other processing (e.g. Audyssey DSX).

Unfortunately they didn't have a 4520CI to compare; apparently Best Buy Magnolia isn't stocking these in-store anymore. It would have been interesting to hear this model as, in theory, it should have superior raw sound quality due to much beefier construction, better DAC's, more DSP chips, etc.

In case anyone was wondering, I also spent some time comparing the Denon models to a Pioner Elite VSX-60. I am not as familiar with Pios but I tried my best to configure it the same, setting it to "Source Direct" mode in stereo so it was also playing a full-range, unprocessed stereo signal. I also had to level match by ear because couldn't be certain that the volume scale was the same. But, for what it's worth, I couldn't hear a lick of difference there either. This confirms what really should be expected -- modern, solid state electronics gear should sound essentially identical in a controlled, level matched A/B sound comparison. Any differences in SQ between brands are only due to room correction and other DSP processing.
post #4999 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewleh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You didn't mention what model you have, but since you mention TWO different additional zones does that mean you have the 3313ci? Or when you talk about "2 zones" are you referring to main zone and zone 2?

Regardless, it sounds like the issue is simply that you are trying to do two separate NETWORK sources to each zone, which is not possible. The receiver can only support one active network stream at a time. As a test, for example, try playing a non-network source (e.g. your cable box or Blu-ray player) in main zone and then see if you can fire up internet radio independently in the other zone.

Damnit. This is exactly what we are trying to do. And what I was beginning to suspect. (We have the 2113, just 2 zones).

So, what would people advise to get internet radio in 2 zones? What's the cheapest option I guess I mean. Buy a standalone internet radio, and wire it in via the 'aux' input?

Do you have any devices that can serve as a DLNA streaming client? Or can stream music themselves? Game systems (like PS3) and most current Blu-ray players have network features built in. You could use one to stream to main zone and the built-in receiver network streaming to stream to the other zone.
post #5000 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by aidenNYC View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

The instructions below are for Win7. Win8 is similar.. XP is more involved.

Instructions: http://pcsupport.about.com/od/fixtheproblem/ht/system-restore-windows-7.htm

Restore point info: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/aa378910%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

Restore point FAQ: http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows-vista/System-Restore-frequently-asked-questions#

Thanks. I was able to create a restore point, but there are no other restore points listed, just the one i just created. I clicked on the box to find other restore point and no other ones came up. I created the restore point and restarted but still have the same issue. There are no restore points from before I installed the program, so the new one I created wouldn't have any affect (i assume, but don't know).

What I also noticed is when I have the laptop connected to the TV and the receiver turned to Cbl/Sat, I am getting the audio from the TV channel that is on, even though I am on a different input (the input for the hdmi cable to the laptop), not the receiver input. So I am hearing the TV audio but viewing my laptop on the TV. As far as I can remember I always had the receiver on Cab/Sat and the input of the HDMI cable from the laptop to the TV and had audio from my receiver, not the TV.

Sorry, I can't help with the latter problem. I don't use an external cable box, just the TV's internal tuner.

Unfortunately, without a pre-existing restore point to invoke, the problem isn't going to be changed, and fixing your system is going to be much more difficult. Something you might try is CCleaner (http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner) Do both a registry and a disk cleanup. Otherwise, try contacting the program's authors or forum. They should be able to help.

There really, really should have been a restore point created when the monthly Microsoft patches were applied a couple of weeks ago. Were restore points previously disabled, perhaps? If you have updates disabled, then you're leaving your computer vulnerable to serious malware infestations, even if you only occasionally install software recommended by others ... like the package you installed recently and had to remove. At any rate, you mignt consider increasing the amount of space preallocated on your system disk for restore points to make sure they continue to be recorded.
post #5001 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by fewleh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

You didn't mention what model you have, but since you mention TWO different additional zones does that mean you have the 3313ci? Or when you talk about "2 zones" are you referring to main zone and zone 2?

Regardless, it sounds like the issue is simply that you are trying to do two separate NETWORK sources to each zone, which is not possible. The receiver can only support one active network stream at a time. As a test, for example, try playing a non-network source (e.g. your cable box or Blu-ray player) in main zone and then see if you can fire up internet radio independently in the other zone.

Damnit. This is exactly what we are trying to do. And what I was beginning to suspect. (We have the 2113, just 2 zones).

So, what would people advise to get internet radio in 2 zones? What's the cheapest option I guess I mean. Buy a standalone internet radio, and wire it in via the 'aux' input?

Do you have any devices that can serve as a DLNA streaming client? Or can stream music themselves? Game systems (like PS3) and most current Blu-ray players have network features built in. You could use one to stream to main zone and the built-in receiver network streaming to stream to the other zone.

FWIW, BD players (like Sony's) often provide reasonable streaming functionality. Roku's USB "stick" has gotten good reviews, too (http://www.roku.com/streamingstick). Since they're both external devices, their audio streams would be separately selectable in the different zones.
post #5002 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Do you have any devices that can serve as a DLNA streaming client? Or can stream music themselves? Game systems (like PS3) and most current Blu-ray players have network features built in. You could use one to stream to main zone and the built-in receiver network streaming to stream to the other zone.

Thanks for the input everyone, really appreciate it.

We have a Readynas Duo which could serve as a streaming client DLNA. But, I tried exactly as you suggested... and doesn't that still come into the same problems? Thery are both seen as a 'network' input, and the Denon can't two seperate ones. I.e. I load intrenet radio on zone1, and then try and select 'media server' in zone 2, and they both change. I think I will need an external device as mentioned. I'll look at that usb stick, thank you.. and also thinking an old squeezebox would do the job nicely?
post #5003 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Do you have any devices that can serve as a DLNA streaming client? Or can stream music themselves? Game systems (like PS3) and most current Blu-ray players have network features built in. You could use one to stream to main zone and the built-in receiver network streaming to stream to the other zone.

We could move the 'readynas duo' on the network, so it is physically sat on top of the denon. Is that any help? Or does it stil need to be accessed over the network?
post #5004 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

A little story about sound quality...

Yesterday I had the day off for MLK Day and I ended up at a local Best Buy which has a Magnolia department. Apparently all of the employees were on vacation too because there was nobody around... which is how I like it, because the BB sales monkeys only make my life harder when I'm browsing.

So I wandered into the empty "high end" Magnolia listening room which contains a wall full of receivers as well as multiple different subs, speakers, etc. on tap to test out. There is a touch screen computer interface to control what combo of source + receiver + speakers are being used, which was pretty easy for me to figure out, so I fired up their demo disc and started listening to the various speakers.

I noticed they had four Denon models available -- 1713, 2113, 2313, and 3313 (interestingly, the non XT models, 1613 and 1913, are in the "regular" Best Buy stereo section). I confirmed that all four receivers were set up identically (the Best Buy monkeys just leave them at factory defaults but I verified speaker trims, bass management, etc. just in case) and set them all to DIRECT mode to eliminate any other variables. I set each receiver to the same obnoxiously loud volume (65-70, or -10 to -15 on the dB scale) and cranked some music in 'pure' 2 channel stereo. After futzing around with various speakers, I settled on a pair of B&W CM9 towers which are extremely nice, $3k/pair of tower speakers with strong bass and a very detailed, revealing sound. I made sure that there was no subwoofer or additional speakers playing, so this was as pure of a test of full-range 2ch stereo quality possible.

With each receiver set to the identical volume, playing the identical source, all in DIRECT mode with these very nice speakers playing some high quality music demo material, I was able to easily toggle between any of the four Denon models and see if I could hear any difference in "raw" sound quality.

Bottom line: I couldn't. Even cranked to close-to-uncomfortably-loud volumes with a $3k pair of speakers, the little $449 msrp 1713 sounded identical with the $1,200 msrp 3313ci.

The touch screen setup allowed me to do near instantaneous (1-2 second pause while switching) A/B comparisons of any pair of receivers I wanted... so I tried 3313 vs. 2313, 2113 vs. 1713, 3313 vs. 1713, etc. There were times when switching from the 3313 to the 1713 I thought I detected that the more expensive unit had a bit more refinement, perhaps a little more "air" in the treble and a bit more "fullness" in the bass... but I found it difficult to hear this reliably and I doubt it would have held up in a blind test if I had a partner to do the switching for me.

Complicating this potentially tiny difference however, I was examining the front panel displays and noticed that the 3313 read "ANA" whereas the 1713 showed "DIG / PCM", meaning that the 3313 model was hooked up with analog RCA's whereas the 1713 had an optical digital input. So it is entirely possible (even likely) that any minuscule perceived difference could simply have been due to the ADC stage in the 3313.

As we know, all of these receivers have the same basic components, same DACs, same DSP chips, etc. so this really confirmed for me that there is no real difference in "raw" quality among these consumer units. So don't pay more for the higher level unit unless you actually will use the extra features!! To be fair, there could be a situation where the sturdier amp section of the 2313/3313 models (which are larger and heavier and have a different chassis) could provide some small benefit, but I think it's safe to assume that any difference in SQ among the current Denon lineup will come only from different room correction (regular MultEQ vs. XT) or other processing (e.g. Audyssey DSX).

Unfortunately they didn't have a 4520CI to compare; apparently Best Buy Magnolia isn't stocking these in-store anymore. It would have been interesting to hear this model as, in theory, it should have superior raw sound quality due to much beefier construction, better DAC's, more DSP chips, etc.

In case anyone was wondering, I also spent some time comparing the Denon models to a Pioner Elite VSX-60. I am not as familiar with Pios but I tried my best to configure it the same, setting it to "Source Direct" mode in stereo so it was also playing a full-range, unprocessed stereo signal. I also had to level match by ear because couldn't be certain that the volume scale was the same. But, for what it's worth, I couldn't hear a lick of difference there either. This confirms what really should be expected -- modern, solid state electronics gear should sound essentially identical in a controlled, level matched A/B sound comparison. Any differences in SQ between brands are only due to room correction and other DSP processing.

Great info Batpig! Will put a lot of minds at ease, I think.

This should be at the start of the thread somewhere so people can see it, not buried here on page 167...
post #5005 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

A little story about sound quality...

Yesterday I had the day off for MLK Day and I ended up at a local Best Buy which has a Magnolia department. (---snip---)

Nice post, thank you. I'm not surprised at your results, and I agree, pay more for features, they all sound very good.
post #5006 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by fewleh View Post

We could move the 'readynas duo' on the network, so it is physically sat on top of the denon. Is that any help? Or does it stil need to be accessed over the network?

Sorry, now I understand better having thought about it. The readynas wouldn't work as a 'local player' would it? But, we do have a spare xbox360 that could possibly be wired in to the denon direct, and then stream from the readynas? And then control it with an app on phone.. rather than set up a screen next to it? Is my thinking along the right lines? smile.gif
post #5007 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Sorry, I can't help with the latter problem. I don't use an external cable box, just the TV's internal tuner.

Unfortunately, without a pre-existing restore point to invoke, the problem isn't going to be changed, and fixing your system is going to be much more difficult. Something you might try is CCleaner (http://www.piriform.com/ccleaner) Do both a registry and a disk cleanup. Otherwise, try contacting the program's authors or forum. They should be able to help.

There really, really should have been a restore point created when the monthly Microsoft patches were applied a couple of weeks ago. Were restore points previously disabled, perhaps? If you have updates disabled, then you're leaving your computer vulnerable to serious malware infestations, even if you only occasionally install software recommended by others ... like the package you installed recently and had to remove. At any rate, you mignt consider increasing the amount of space preallocated on your system disk for restore points to make sure they continue to be recorded.

Thanks Selden. I will check the Jamcast forums. I checked and restore points were turned on so it is strange that none show up. Anway, thanks a lot for your time/help. I downloaded CCleaner as well as Malwarebytes and Microsoft Security essentials just to be safe.
post #5008 of 10468
You're very welcome. Best of luck!
post #5009 of 10468
I made an interesting observation today.

When I toggle from FM tuner to the STB, I notice a very significient difference in volume coming from the speakers. The volume from the STB is much lower. As a fact, I can easily crank the volume to max. while in STB mode and it a bit loud but no where close to earth moving. If I crank it up to max or close to while in FM mode, my speakers feel that they are at their limit and its real LOUD.I tried another source (my Roku) I would say that the volume is like the the FM tuner.

Why is my STB providing a much lower volume than my other sources?
post #5010 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

A little story about sound quality...

Yesterday I had the day off for MLK Day and I ended up at a local Best Buy which has a Magnolia department. Apparently all of the employees were on vacation too because there was nobody around... which is how I like it, because the BB sales monkeys only make my life harder when I'm browsing.

So I wandered into the empty "high end" Magnolia listening room which contains a wall full of receivers as well as multiple different subs, speakers, etc. on tap to test out. There is a touch screen computer interface to control what combo of source + receiver + speakers are being used, which was pretty easy for me to figure out, so I fired up their demo disc and started listening to the various speakers.

I noticed they had four Denon models available -- 1713, 2113, 2313, and 3313 (interestingly, the non XT models, 1613 and 1913, are in the "regular" Best Buy stereo section). I confirmed that all four receivers were set up identically (the Best Buy monkeys just leave them at factory defaults but I verified speaker trims, bass management, etc. just in case) and set them all to DIRECT mode to eliminate any other variables. I set each receiver to the same obnoxiously loud volume (65-70, or -10 to -15 on the dB scale) and cranked some music in 'pure' 2 channel stereo. After futzing around with various speakers, I settled on a pair of B&W CM9 towers which are extremely nice, $3k/pair of tower speakers with strong bass and a very detailed, revealing sound. I made sure that there was no subwoofer or additional speakers playing, so this was as pure of a test of full-range 2ch stereo quality possible.

With each receiver set to the identical volume, playing the identical source, all in DIRECT mode with these very nice speakers playing some high quality music demo material, I was able to easily toggle between any of the four Denon models and see if I could hear any difference in "raw" sound quality.

Bottom line: I couldn't. Even cranked to close-to-uncomfortably-loud volumes with a $3k pair of speakers, the little $449 msrp 1713 sounded identical with the $1,200 msrp 3313ci.

The touch screen setup allowed me to do near instantaneous (1-2 second pause while switching) A/B comparisons of any pair of receivers I wanted... so I tried 3313 vs. 2313, 2113 vs. 1713, 3313 vs. 1713, etc. There were times when switching from the 3313 to the 1713 I thought I detected that the more expensive unit had a bit more refinement, perhaps a little more "air" in the treble and a bit more "fullness" in the bass... but I found it difficult to hear this reliably and I doubt it would have held up in a blind test if I had a partner to do the switching for me.

Complicating this potentially tiny difference however, I was examining the front panel displays and noticed that the 3313 read "ANA" whereas the 1713 showed "DIG / PCM", meaning that the 3313 model was hooked up with analog RCA's whereas the 1713 had an optical digital input. So it is entirely possible (even likely) that any minuscule perceived difference could simply have been due to the ADC stage in the 3313.

As we know, all of these receivers have the same basic components, same DACs, same DSP chips, etc. so this really confirmed for me that there is no real difference in "raw" quality among these consumer units. So don't pay more for the higher level unit unless you actually will use the extra features!! To be fair, there could be a situation where the sturdier amp section of the 2313/3313 models (which are larger and heavier and have a different chassis) could provide some small benefit, but I think it's safe to assume that any difference in SQ among the current Denon lineup will come only from different room correction (regular MultEQ vs. XT) or other processing (e.g. Audyssey DSX).

Unfortunately they didn't have a 4520CI to compare; apparently Best Buy Magnolia isn't stocking these in-store anymore. It would have been interesting to hear this model as, in theory, it should have superior raw sound quality due to much beefier construction, better DAC's, more DSP chips, etc.

In case anyone was wondering, I also spent some time comparing the Denon models to a Pioner Elite VSX-60. I am not as familiar with Pios but I tried my best to configure it the same, setting it to "Source Direct" mode in stereo so it was also playing a full-range, unprocessed stereo signal. I also had to level match by ear because couldn't be certain that the volume scale was the same. But, for what it's worth, I couldn't hear a lick of difference there either. This confirms what really should be expected -- modern, solid state electronics gear should sound essentially identical in a controlled, level matched A/B sound comparison. Any differences in SQ between brands are only due to room correction and other DSP processing.


Thanks much for the info!

It makes me feel a lot better about my decision. I went into a local BB/Magnolia with all intents to buy the 3313ci. They had the 2313ci
marked down $200 off for an unadvertised special. I couldn't resist.

Thought I might need the 3313 for the pre-outs but that hasn't been the case, especially with a powered SVS sub in the system.
I was still wondering if the 3313 would have been better though..... rolleyes.gif
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