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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 263

post #7861 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffluck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Bass management means redirecting bass frequencies from one channel to another -- most typically, it means crossing over your speakers so that the bass below a certain point (the "crossover frequency") goes to the subwoofer. On most receivers, the "small/large" setting for each speaker controls bass management.

You have described a problem that you can't hear your subwoofer with 2ch music. The important thing to understand is that with 2ch inputs, there is no "LFE" channel built in (the LFE is the "point 1" in a 5.1 or 7.1 signal that goes directly to the subwoofer). So content in 2 channels will only activate the subwoofer if YOU activate the bass management in the receiver, so the bass gets re-routed from the L/R speakers to the subwoofer.

The most common cause of this issue is that your front speakers have decent bass performance, so when Audyssey calibration is complete the receiver sees the measurements and sets them to "large", or maybe "small" but with a very low crossover (like 60Hz). That's why if you read through any of the Audyssey 101/FAQ type documents (many collected here on my website) they always recommend checking bass management after Audyssey by going into the Speaker Config menus and changing the front speakers to "small" with an 80Hz crossover if they were set lower than that.

After that change your sub should wake up with 2ch music.

Very helpful. I'm going to turn the volume down on the sub itself and leave the crossover off and re-run Audyssey, then go into the speaker config and make the recommended changes you mentioned. I read in another post the bass volume should be about 0db in Audyssey, but for me it shows -12, which means the sub's volume is too high (although I don't know why it matters, one volume up and the other down is the same as one volume down and the other up, right??).

The problem is that Audyssey has only a limited range of volume levels over which it can do its equalizations. (about +/- 10dB). If it's already pegged at -12dB, it doesn't have another 10dB available to help reduce peaks in the subwoofer's output. Those peaks are excessive sound levels which show up at frequencies which are related to the dimensions of your listening room. They can make your subwoofer sound "boomy". Inexperienced people often mistake those peaks for "lots of bass" when in fact they are distortions and are not at all what was intended by the person who mixed the soundtrack.

Reducing the volume control knob on your subwoofer will cause Audyssey to turn up the gain of your receiver's subwoofer output, hopefully putting it into a range where Audyssey has the "breathing room" it needs.
post #7862 of 10468
Thread Starter 
While Selden is correct that you should turn down the volume on the sub and then re-run Audyssey so the level adjustment isn't "maxed out" at -12dB, there is one minor correction needed. The channel trim range doesn't have anything to do with the amount of boost/cut available for Audyssey's EQ filters. The EQ filters come in an earlier block than the channel level trims and are fully independent from them, so for example having your subwoofer trim at -8dB doesn't mean that Audyssey's EQ filters only have 4dB of "breathing room" available for taming peaks.
post #7863 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ceh383 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sahmen View Post

Multeq XT vs Multeq XT 32:

Until recently, I was dead set on picking up a 3313cl. Then I heard about the superior "magic" of the multeq xt32, which the 3313 does not have, and that has got me thinking of the Onkyo 818, although I have not heard it myself.

First question: is the Audyssey xt32 that much better than the xt?

I'm sure most, if not all, on this forum will disagree with me on this...

I have a 3313, I had it set up in my living room and I thought it sounded fantastic. I " upgraded" to a 4520, which has XT32. After running both versions I found, at least in my room, the 3313 with XT sounded better. The difference I heard was all in the low frequencies, XT sounded clean, XT32 sounded boomy. Both setups used the same speakers, placement, and setup routine.

If you are a Denon fan and don't want to go with XT, I'd wait until you can afford the X4000. Personally I would avoid the Onkyo, to many HDMI board issues...

@ceh383 -- Not to discount your experience -- as I'm sure you heard what you heard in your room and were careful with your setup methodology -- but I would caution that your experience is truly unique and should not be generalized to any broad conclusion about XT vs. XT32. As you already know, your experience runs contrary to that of nearly every other person who has stepped up to XT32. Plus, on a theoretical level, it simply doesn't make any sense. XT32 is a much enhanced version of XT (or as Splicer put it, "XT on steroids"). It not only has far greater resolution for calculating EQ filters, but it also appears to have an evolved philosophy of dedicated more of those enhanced resources to smoothing out the bass frequencies. There is no logical reason why XT32 would do a WORSE job of correcting the bass than XT, and I don't think anyone should worry that it will make the bass "boomier" -- if anything, it makes the bass so smooth that somebody who is used to the boomier bass of a less-corrected system might think the bass has been "turned down".

I can tell you that in my brief experience with XT32, having gone through regular MultEQ (2310) and XT (2113), my experience definitely parallels that of the majority. The bass is smoother, less boomy, and better defined than it has ever been, and the overall system cohesion and clarity is slightly better as well.

So not to poop on your post tongue.gif but just wanted to make sure that the "general public" is aware that your experience is well outside the norm in this context.
post #7864 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

While Selden is correct that you should turn down the volume on the sub and then re-run Audyssey so the level adjustment isn't "maxed out" at -12dB, there is one minor correction needed. The channel trim range doesn't have anything to do with the amount of boost/cut available for Audyssey's EQ filters. The EQ filters come in an earlier block than the channel level trims and are fully independent from them, so for example having your subwoofer trim at -8dB doesn't mean that Audyssey's EQ filters only have 4dB of "breathing room" available for taming peaks.

Thanks, I reran everything and got the sub back to -.5db in Audyssey which is pretty good. The X-overs were earlier reading 40hz on speakers and 120hz on the sub, and that was way off. I did 80hz for all and set all speakers to small and I definitely can hear the sub in music now. It is not as ridiculously loud as I expected, but I only listened to one band so we'll see how it sounds over time. Thanks again for your help.
post #7865 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
It is not as ridiculously loud as I expected

Remember that Audyssey is calibrating your system to flat response so "ridiculously loud" bass isn't the goal. If you want to pump up the bass for music (nothing wrong with that preference) you can adjust the subwoofer level trim after calibration using the Sub Level parameter in the Audio menu. Note that this setting is memorized by surround mode "family" so you can, say, bump it up 3-5dB for STEREO mode but that change won't copy over to multichannel modes, so you can goose the bass for stereo music and leave it at "reference" for multichannel content (movies).
post #7866 of 10468
I just raise the gain on my sub if I want more bass - easy enough. I have to turn the gain down when I run Audyssey to begin with.
post #7867 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Craig -- the problem with that approach is that (unless you have a digital gain control on the sub) after you adjust the gain knob on the sub there is no way to restore "reference" calibrated bass at a later point.

It's much better to use the digital level in the receiver -- not only can you easily revert back precisely to the "reference" calibrated setting at any time, but you can also take advantage of the ability to have different settings for stereo vs. multich modes. It's better to follow the rule of thumb that "after you run Audyssey, don't touch the knobs on the sub".
post #7868 of 10468
I recently purchased an AVR-2113CI. I was not planning on buying a receiver but when I went to get a new Plasma set I got a little carried away in the moment. I am currently using a Yamaha YST-SW015 subwoofer. Before I begin Audyssey I would like to make sure this sub is set up correctly. There are a few switches on this sub that I can't correlate to the Audyssey manual or the faq's and I need help determining what these switches should be set to in order to have a good calabration. I have the manual but I am not sure if it is allowed to be attached.

1. The YST-SW015 has a phase switch. The choices are "Reverse" and "Normal". The sub manual states that normally this switch is set to "Reverse". What would be the correct setting before running Audyssey?

2. The YST-SW015 has a switch called "Bass Action Selector System". You only have 2 choices and they are Movie and Music. From my experience the movie is much louder. Which position would be best to set it on to run Audyssey?

Any help would be appreciated.
post #7869 of 10468
I don't even know if I can do what I'm trying to do, but here goes. I have the AVR-1713. I have my computer hooked into it via HDMI so I can play audio from the computer and use the television that the AVR is connected to as a second monitor. What I want to be able to accomplish is to be able to play games on my PS3 while simultaneously having audio from the computer. I have been able to do so by having the PS3 connect straight to the tv, rather than through the AVR. But this is only half a solution as it requires me to switch the HDMI cable around when I want to just play games and not have music at the same time. I thought I should be able to do this using an optical cable from the PS3 to the AVR, but that has not worked. Is there something I am doing wrong? Thanks for any help.
post #7870 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BAMA92 View Post

I recently purchased an AVR-2113CI. I was not planning on buying a receiver but when I went to get a new Plasma set I got a little carried away in the moment. I am currently using a Yamaha YST-SW015 subwoofer. Before I begin Audyssey I would like to make sure this sub is set up correctly. There are a few switches on this sub that I can't correlate to the Audyssey manual or the faq's and I need help determining what these switches should be set to in order to have a good calabration. I have the manual but I am not sure if it is allowed to be attached.

1. The YST-SW015 has a phase switch. The choices are "Reverse" and "Normal". The sub manual states that normally this switch is set to "Reverse". What would be the correct setting before running Audyssey?

2. The YST-SW015 has a switch called "Bass Action Selector System". You only have 2 choices and they are Movie and Music. From my experience the movie is much louder. Which position would be best to set it on to run Audyssey?

Any help would be appreciated.

1. Normal
2. Music

In general when subs have a music/movie type setting the music setting is flat whereas the movie setting gooses the mid bass (for more thump with movie effects) at the expense of flat response and deep extension. That's why it sounds louder. Since Audyssey's trying to calibrate the sub to flat, you want to pick the flatter setting for calibration.
post #7871 of 10468
Does the 1713 know to switch to the correct audio modes? For instance if i put a blu ray on, will it by default pick the best track? Same goes for music?

Lastly I'm sure it was mentioned before, but us the dynamic volume recommended?
post #7872 of 10468
No to the first as the AVR can only play what it receives ... so if you don't manually select the HD audio track on the Blu Ray, then by default the BD may select the lossy DD/DTS track which the AVR with then play. Dyn Vol is recommended mainly for TV and light night movie viewing, although it can help to raise low level dialogue as well.
post #7873 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmacdo05 View Post

I don't even know if I can do what I'm trying to do, but here goes. I have the AVR-1713. I have my computer hooked into it via HDMI so I can play audio from the computer and use the television that the AVR is connected to as a second monitor. What I want to be able to accomplish is to be able to play games on my PS3 while simultaneously having audio from the computer. I have been able to do so by having the PS3 connect straight to the tv, rather than through the AVR. But this is only half a solution as it requires me to switch the HDMI cable around when I want to just play games and not have music at the same time. I thought I should be able to do this using an optical cable from the PS3 to the AVR, but that has not worked. Is there something I am doing wrong? Thanks for any help.

If the PS3 is connected via HDMI to the AVR, then connect the laptop via something other than HDMI to the same source name used for the PS3 and change the INPUT MODE for the PS3 to "Digital" or "Analog" whichever way you decide to connect the laptop.
post #7874 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No to the first as the AVR can only play what it receives ... so if you don't manually select the HD audio track on the Blu Ray, then by default the BD may select the lossy DD/DTS track which the AVR with then play. Dyn Vol is recommended mainly for TV and light night movie viewing, although it can help to raise low level dialogue as well.

So how do I know which to select? There are so many options typically.
post #7875 of 10468
On the BD, there's usually only 2 in English ... the HD track and the stereo or lossy track. On the AVR there are generally only 4-5 choices the most common selected being either DD or DTS whichever is playing at the time.
post #7876 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffluck View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

No to the first as the AVR can only play what it receives ... so if you don't manually select the HD audio track on the Blu Ray, then by default the BD may select the lossy DD/DTS track which the AVR with then play. Dyn Vol is recommended mainly for TV and light night movie viewing, although it can help to raise low level dialogue as well.

So how do I know which to select? There are so many options typically.

Just to be clear, IF you select the right track from the source, then the receive will "automatically" lock on to the "correct" surround mode. For example, if you pick the DTS-MASTER audio track, when the receiver receives that signal it will lock on to that surround mode. Typically the only time you have to make choices about surround mode on the receiver side is when you want to create "extra" channels that aren't in the source, for example scaling up a stereo (2ch) input to 5.1, or taking a 5.1 multichannel input and adding surround backs or front heights.
post #7877 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

1. Normal
2. Music

In general when subs have a music/movie type setting the music setting is flat whereas the movie setting gooses the mid bass (for more thump with movie effects) at the expense of flat response and deep extension. That's why it sounds louder. Since Audyssey's trying to calibrate the sub to flat, you want to pick the flatter setting for calibration.

Batpig, Thanks so much for the info. All the work that has been put into this forum is just tremendous. Thanks again.
post #7878 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffluck View Post

So how do I know which to select? There are so many options typically.
The vast majority of BDs only have one English language track, which plays by default. Some early releases had two tracks, a high res version and lossy DD 5.1, with the latter usually set as the default. That was done because most people did not have equipment that could handle lossless sources. These days, you may still find two or more choices on the disc audio menu with concerts, where stereo PCM is often an option. But, nearly all movies are released with just a single lossless track, usually DTS-HD Master Audio.
post #7879 of 10468
I have a friend who recently had a new vacation house built and had everything prewired for his two surround sound systems. He bought two 2313s and went to hook them up to the TV using the HDMI wire that was installed in the wall and couldn't get the Denon menu to show up on his TV (the connection was fine, correct input selected on TV, etc). He tried with both receivers and no luck. So, he then used his own exeternal HDMI wire to the TV from the reciever and the menu came up no problem.

So one would think it's a faulty HDMI wire in the wall... ....However, when connecting his blu-ray player or Dish box via the same inwall cable to the TV, the video and audio signals go over just fine.

Could there be something in the wire that would cause it to not work with the Denon but have it work fine with other input devices?

Thanks.
post #7880 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffluck View Post

Thanks, I reran everything and got the sub back to -.5db in Audyssey which is pretty good. The X-overs were earlier reading 40hz on speakers and 120hz on the sub, and that was way off. I did 80hz for all and set all speakers to small and I definitely can hear the sub in music now. It is not as ridiculously loud as I expected, but I only listened to one band so we'll see how it sounds over time. Thanks again for your help.

Are you listening to your music in 2 channel mode or through all of your speakers? If you are running them through all of the speakers, try changing the sound mode to Dolby PLII Music. To me, music sounds best on that setting and it may help boost your sub level also because of the extra sound processing.
post #7881 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by AMGala View Post

Are you listening to your music in 2 channel mode or through all of your speakers? If you are running them through all of the speakers, try changing the sound mode to Dolby PLII Music. To me, music sounds best on that setting and it may help boost your sub level also because of the extra sound processing.

I should clarify, Dolby PLII Cinema seems to boost the center channel for better dialogue clarity. Dolby PLII Music is much more balanced between the channels for better sounding music.
post #7882 of 10468
post #7883 of 10468
Hello,

I just recently purchased a 2313ci and was wondering where the firmware sits, I know it says that it can be updated but I haven't found a place that lets we know exactly what I'm using now, it's 1490-0168-0000-8130-1566. The Nov '12 update contains items that I'd use, but if I at least have that version then the two later updates don't really matter to me right now and I'll hold off.

Thanks for any info.
post #7884 of 10468
Thread Starter 
You can check firmware version in the GENERAL > INFORMATION section of the menu (p 131 of your OM). You can also check in the same section of the web browser interface.
post #7885 of 10468
hehe, sorry,

I meant that I know the version number I have, but I can only seem to find the release dates online, not the version number associated with those dates.
post #7886 of 10468
hmmm...

Actually found a post (only a single item shows up on google) referencing my version number from July '12 (still don't know if it's the original version or an updated one), so looks like I'll have to update.

Denon really should have a version history on their site. Of course I'm used to dealing with firmware for computer parts where there's always a history to look at, ah well tongue.gif
post #7887 of 10468
Once again, I am officially stumped trying to play SACD discs through my 3313CI using a Denon DVD-3910 with an analog connection. Unless I am misunderstanding something, using 6 RCA interconnects, shouldn't I be able to go from the 3910 to the analog connectors on the back of the 3313? For some reason, I cannot get audio out of the receiver. If I use an HDMI cable, the older 3910 will not pass the SACD signal through it. I know this is by design and was part of the original copy protection scheme for SACD. But, with my older 3805, I can either use the D-link cable or the analog interconnects to play SACD's on it without problem. Since D-link has changed with the new receiver, it is not compatible and I cannot get the analog connection to work. Does this mean I can no longer use my 3910 for SACD, DVD-A, & HDCD playback on the 3313-CI?

Another thing I noticed is that since I already have my sub-woofer plugged into the analog sub connector on the back of 3313, where should I plug in the sub output from the 3910? There is a "sub-woofer 2" connector on the back of the 3313, but Denon's typically vague, confusing owner's manual doesn't really explain its use.

As always, thanks in advance for any help you experts can provide. It's much appreciated!
post #7888 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Hate to break it to you but those are OUTPUTS not inputs.
post #7889 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitchman View Post

Once again, I am officially stumped trying to play SACD discs through my 3313CI using a Denon DVD-3910 with an analog connection. Unless I am misunderstanding something, using 6 RCA interconnects, shouldn't I be able to go from the 3910 to the analog connectors on the back of the 3313? For some reason, I cannot get audio out of the receiver. If I use an HDMI cable, the older 3910 will not pass the SACD signal through it. I know this is by design and was part of the original copy protection scheme for SACD. But, with my older 3805, I can either use the D-link cable or the analog interconnects to play SACD's on it without problem. Since D-link has changed with the new receiver, it is not compatible and I cannot get the analog connection to work. Does this mean I can no longer use my 3910 for SACD, DVD-A, & HDCD playback on the 3313-CI?

Another thing I noticed is that since I already have my sub-woofer plugged into the analog sub connector on the back of 3313, where should I plug in the sub output from the 3910? There is a "sub-woofer 2" connector on the back of the 3313, but Denon's typically vague, confusing owner's manual doesn't really explain its use.

As always, thanks in advance for any help you experts can provide. It's much appreciated!

Denon dropped the multi-analog inputs on the 331XCI series about 3 years ago so HDMI would be your best option. Just as the speaker "pre-outs" are outputs, so are the two sub "pre-outs" outputs as well.
post #7890 of 10468
Fwiw my 3311 still has analog inputs; don't know about 3312, since they did not send me a real om
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