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The **OFFICIAL** Denon AVR-XX13 Model Owner's Thread & FAQ - Page 300

post #8971 of 10468
thanks everyone!
post #8972 of 10468
I just got a refurb 1913 from Accessories4Less and had to exchange it due to HDMI handshaking issues. I couldn't load an On Demand video off the cable box without it freezing up. I'm using the exact same cabling as i had with my prior AVR-591 (refurbed as well) which worked perfectly.

I got the replacement today and so far so good. Hopefully it was just a flaky unit. It's probably in my head but Spotify sounds MUCH better on this unit than the prior one. I was really disappointed in the quality before and spend hours obsessing over how to improve it. Now i'm using all default settings, Restorer off, and it sounds great. Rocking it right now.
post #8973 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Impala1ss View Post

NEED HELP WITH COMPLEX HDMI SETUP:

Wanted to send HDMI signal from AVR/TV wirelessly from inside of house to TV on patio. Bought the Monoprice Wireless 5G HDMI transmitter and Receiver to accomplish the wireless part; it works well. I had to also buy a Sewell 1X2 HDMI splitter and it also works well. All my connections from TV, Blu Ray, etc are connected to Denon 2113 AVR which sends all to TV via 1 HDMI connection. My problem is that the patio TV receives picture very well but no sound.

I set this system up by taking the one wire from AVR to TV and split it with the powered splitter. One wire from Sewell splitter to TV and 2nd. wire from splitter to the Wireless Transmitter. Inside TV works fine Wireless receiver connects to outside TV. Splitter and Transmitter and Receiver are all powered.

Since the video comes through very well I can not figure out why there is no audio. The audio on the outside tv works when I use an outside antennae so I know TV audio is working. Also, something very strange - if I turn TV in house off, sound comes on on outside TV ( no picture of course). Turn inside TV back on and sound disappears on outside TV while video comes back on outside.

Have checked all HDMI wires ( 4 of them) and connections and all seem to work properly. All settings on AVR, inside TV, and outside TV seem to be set up OK; i.e. speakers on, etc.

Any suggestions? Is this setup even possible? AM I missing something? Anyone see an error in my logic, or connections? eek.gif

PROBLEM SOLVED:

This morning I kept trying to solve sound problem. Whereas I had split the HDMI wire connecting the AVR to the TV, I reset the direct HDMI from the AVR to the TV. Instead I split the wire from the cable box to the AVR. Took the wire from the cable box, split it and connected one HDMI (from splitter) to AVR, and took the 2nd. HDMI (from splitter) and connected to Wireless HDMI transmitter.

VOILA! Outside TV now has sound and picture. I have no idea why it didn't work with original configuration but everything works great now. Here I stand TRIUMPHANT. Many dollars poorer, and with a configuration that would make Rube Goldberg proud. Now I can watch TV from in the pool, in the hammock, or just sitting in a patio chair. I AM THE MAN. If anyone can explain what I did, in simple layman's terms, I would appreciate it. BP? JDS?


BATPIG -PROBLEM BACK:

Well, I thought the problem was solved but after using this system on 2 separate nights perfectly, it now will not connect. The HDMI transmitter/receiver combo is working because it tells me the connection is made BUT I also get a message on TV saying to check the source. I also get what appears to be a handshaking problem (picture flashes on and goes right off). Nothing has changed since it worked on 2 different nights. I can not figure out why it no longer works. Any help
post #8974 of 10468
One thing that kind of bothers me about the 1713 is I cannot get adequate bass out of it. I've tried all kinds of different settings, turn Audyessy off and cranked up the sub and it's still weak sauce. I don't get it, because when I go into the test tones menu and turn the sub up it rubles like all hell. Then I go and play something that I know has a lot of bass and its still really low. Even if I crank the volume on the sub up to boot. It's like the signal it gets during play back is way too weak. Obvisouly from the test tones menu the AVR is capable of sending a stronger signal I just don't know why it doesn't show up when I'm actually playing something. Any ideas? With my old Yammy I actually had to turn the sub level down because it was too strong. Maybe I have a bad unit or something?
post #8975 of 10468
^^
So then what did you learn from reading the Audyssey Setup Guide as I suggested? Did you follow the tips?
post #8976 of 10468
I did and everything else sounds great. Basically my take is that I might be attenuated to a room effect that Audyessy is now adjusting for. That my sub placement greatly amplified the bass and that's being stripped down now...but even with Audyessy off there is less so I can only figure Denon does not send as strong a signal as Yamaha which is my only reference point. Maybe I'll just get used to it...I'm sure my neighbors appreciate it smile.gif

I will say that movies sound great in the little details that were always lost in my previous setup even when it was 5.1. Can't wait to go back to that at some point when we get a bigger place again.
post #8977 of 10468
Try doing the sub crawl to better locate your sub ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV3oLLMgS-M
post #8978 of 10468
Hey everybody, I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but seeing as how this thread is now 300 pages long I was hoping somebody could give me a quicker answer. I got the 1613 about 8 months ago and have been loving it, especially the internet radio. However, about a month ago I went to use the internet radio and it just keeps saying "connecting" and never does connect. Does anybody have a explanation or solution to this? I've tried unplugging the router already and that didn't seem to help

Thanks!
post #8979 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpwoods View Post

Hey everybody, I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but seeing as how this thread is now 300 pages long I was hoping somebody could give me a quicker answer. I got the 1613 about 8 months ago and have been loving it, especially the internet radio. However, about a month ago I went to use the internet radio and it just keeps saying "connecting" and never does connect. Does anybody have a explanation or solution to this? I've tried unplugging the router already and that didn't seem to help

Thanks!
What other troubleshooting steps have you taken? If none, start there. I found that once I set a static IP it cleared up my sporadic connections issues I was having. I have the 1613 as well.
post #8980 of 10468
Back out of any Internet source, when you are through listening.
post #8981 of 10468
Does anyone know if the AVR-3313 takes an i2s http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C2%B2S signal over HDMI?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
post #8982 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by bpwoods View Post

Hey everybody, I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but seeing as how this thread is now 300 pages long I was hoping somebody could give me a quicker answer. I got the 1613 about 8 months ago and have been loving it, especially the internet radio. However, about a month ago I went to use the internet radio and it just keeps saying "connecting" and never does connect. Does anybody have a explanation or solution to this? I've tried unplugging the router already and that didn't seem to help

Thanks!

As Sancho suggests, rather than simply selecting another source, make sure you press/Hold the ENTER key on the remote to close the network audio source before moving on to your next source.
post #8983 of 10468
This thread is too large to browse anymore. I've searched and advanced searched but can't seem to find an answer to my questions.

Setup:
Receiver: Denon AVR 1713
Source: Samsung PN60F5500 sending audio to receiver via ARC. TV does HDMI 1.4 source switching (Cable box, HTPC) due to its slick user interface. Receiver has one input which is the TV via ARC.
Speakers: Boston Acoustics A360 front L/R, A225C center, A26 surrounds

I have two complaints.
1.) I need to hold the volume button down / turn the volume knob forever to perceive a small change in loudness.
2.) I can't get this system LOUD for the life of me. Approx. 90db at full volume (pink noise). I'd expect an 80W amp to do much better.


Question 1.) Is there a way to adjust the volume sensitivity? That is, volume adjustments in 1db (or greater) vs. 0.5db increments? This may satisfy my desire for quick reaction when adjusting the volume. Turning the encoder 5 full revolutions doesn't seem to do it.

Question 2) How do I get the internal amplifiers gains high enough to really drive the speakers? I've re-run Audyssey numerous times at various locations and mic mounting options. Doesn't seem to matter much as far as overall system loudness. In contrast, my 10+ year old Yamaha RX-V995 (100W /ch) can blow the AVR 1713 away at 1/3 it's volume knob travel. For a 20W /ch difference this should not be...

I realize the Bostons are not the most efficient loudspeakers on the face of the earth. But, should be able to hit 90db at 2W to 4W. That's the max the Denon AVR 1713 is giving me. Heck, even my Klipsch Promedia 5.1 computer speakers can blow the Denon away connected to external 15W amps.

Please help if you can. I like the Denons feature set. But it's amps are disappointing.

Thanks,

Gerb
post #8984 of 10468
Same here. Wouldn't know it was a refurb unless they told me. However, having problems getting the receiver to honestly drive a 5.1 channel setup to acceptable volume levels.

Gerb
post #8985 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbermultit00l View Post

Same here. Wouldn't know it was a refurb unless they told me. However, having problems getting the receiver to honestly drive a 5.1 channel setup to acceptable volume levels.

Gerb

Uhmmm.... Where is the original message I quoted? Sorry for the confusion everyone.

Gerb
post #8986 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerbermultit00l View Post

This thread is too large to browse anymore. I've searched and advanced searched but can't seem to find an answer to my questions.

Setup:
Receiver: Denon AVR 1713
Source: Samsung PN60F5500 sending audio to receiver via ARC. TV does HDMI 1.4 source switching (Cable box, HTPC) due to its slick user interface. Receiver has one input which is the TV via ARC.
Speakers: Boston Acoustics A360 front L/R, A225C center, A26 surrounds

I have two complaints.
1.) I need to hold the volume button down / turn the volume knob forever to perceive a small change in loudness.
2.) I can't get this system LOUD for the life of me. Approx. 90db at full volume (pink noise). I'd expect an 80W amp to do much better.


Question 1.) Is there a way to adjust the volume sensitivity? That is, volume adjustments in 1db (or greater) vs. 0.5db increments? This may satisfy my desire for quick reaction when adjusting the volume. Turning the encoder 5 full revolutions doesn't seem to do it.

Question 2) How do I get the internal amplifiers gains high enough to really drive the speakers? I've re-run Audyssey numerous times at various locations and mic mounting options. Doesn't seem to matter much as far as overall system loudness. In contrast, my 10+ year old Yamaha RX-V995 (100W /ch) can blow the AVR 1713 away at 1/3 it's volume knob travel. For a 20W /ch difference this should not be...

I realize the Bostons are not the most efficient loudspeakers on the face of the earth. But, should be able to hit 90db at 2W to 4W. That's the max the Denon AVR 1713 is giving me. Heck, even my Klipsch Promedia 5.1 computer speakers can blow the Denon away connected to external 15W amps.

Please help if you can. I like the Denons feature set. But it's amps are disappointing.

Thanks,

Gerb

The vast majority of owners complain the volume changes far to rapidly so there may be an issue with your remote ... the volume knob itself would expect to take awhile as it is only manual. Note however, that the average volume levels on modern AVRs is generally 50-70 as they use logarithmic scales unlike your V995 where 2/10 is raising the roof.
post #8987 of 10468
The 2113 has to be a disaster for Denon. We have received our 3rd refurb and it doesn't work either. There is no output from the right channel. How they can continue to get away with sending out allegedly fixed units is beyond my comprehension. This time I am asking for my money back or taking them to small claims court. Keep in mind I only got stuck with the original crap unit. The two refurbs I have sold in their factory sealed refurb boxes to two different buyers. We can't all be crazy or have difficult speakers. Sorry for the rant but this has been going on since May. Can you imagine how upset you would be to keep going through the hassle of installing and dis-installing these from a good system. I suspect the company they hired to refurbish these is the culprit. And to be fair, they have tried replacing them with a working unit. I can't imagine I am the only one getting duds. They have to be scaring off a lot of people from ever purchasing their products again.
post #8988 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Sucks but if everyone was experiencing that you would hear about. People LOVE to complain on Internet forums. You do hear reports of failures on refurb units for sure, but overall reliability has seemed excellent on these units. My 2113 chugged along happily for a year with zero issues.
post #8989 of 10468
I dug this thread back up so I could update folks on my 2113 problems I have been having since last November. Then I read the post just a few back and I can confirm that this is a real problem. Mine has been in for service almost continually since last November. It has been to several authorized Denon repair centers and I have been through more than one unit. The ordeal is longer than I have the time to type up here. It would take a very very long time for me to recount all of the problems I have had with several of these units. I guess it is luck of the draw. If you have a good one I would suggest counting your blessings.

Unfortunately, these units appear to be cheaply made and I have lost confidence in Denon's affordable line of AVR's. I was told by the Denon repair man that these AVR's are some of the first to come out of a new facility in Asia. My old Denon 987 is still chugging along so I thankfully had something to fall back on for the last (almost) year of troubles. The weight difference between the two units is dramatic and the materials that they are made out of are completely different. Different chassis and plugs, etc.

I just can't continue like this. I will give it one more shot to correct the problems through the helpful folks on this forum. But, I won't go through Denon any longer. I need to get this refurb unit working properly or I will have to sell it and go with another brand.

So my remaining problems are with audio.

1. Netflix gives me an annoying static sound with treble but only on some shows which is strange. My old 987 plays those same shows without problems. When I bypass the AVR and go straight to the TV I have no problems.

2. There are lip sync problems but only with some sources and some TV channels. This is weird and I tried to blame it on my cable provider and had them out to look at it but they could not find a problem with their side of things. I have tried hooking up an optical cable but it did not fix the problem. That was actually last November so I can try that again I suppose.

-I have the auto lip sync set to on. I don't even know how it really works. Can someone explain it to me?

-The audio delay function is not of use for every channel because the audio is actually behind the video in many cases. There is no option that I can find for adjusting the audio in the other direction. So now what?
post #8990 of 10468
hhawk,

It sounds like you might be having the same problem I had with one of my units. It ended up being the surround processor. I talked to the repair center and they said they are having two problems with the surround processor. One is that the connections with these boards are many times faulty so you may get intermittent sound as the connection is barely made and then goes out again. The other problem is that the board itself is sometimes bad. I actually had BOTH of these problems present in my unit. I think it is just poorly manufactured.

Someone else mentioned HDMI handshake issues. I also had my fair share of these problems. My HDMI board needed to be replaced and the repair man said it was the most common problem with this line of Denon AVR's.

BTW I don't want anyone to think I have lost all faith in Denon. In fact I bought a 4311 to use in my nearly finished dedicated room. But, I am going to stay away from the newer cheaper AVR's. I have lost countless hours of my life to this so I am sure people can understand that.
post #8991 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The vast majority of owners complain the volume changes far to rapidly so there may be an issue with your remote ... the volume knob itself would expect to take awhile as it is only manual. Note however, that the average volume levels on modern AVRs is generally 50-70 as they use logarithmic scales unlike your V995 where 2/10 is raising the roof.

JDS,

Thank you for your tireless contributions to this thread. Thank you for taking the time out to answer my questions.

As far as volume sensitivity is concerned. Nothing appears to be wrong with my remote. It works fine. The difference between the Yammy and the Denon is not that one is logarithmic or not. Analog volume knobs used logarithmic potentiometers. The difference is that the Yammy's volume is scaled to go from zero to full in about 3/4 of a full revolution of the knob. Whereas the Denon uses a rotatory encoder. It simply sends pulses to a micro as you turn it. It is up to the software to determine how many pulses mean X increment in gain. Denon scaled this so it would take multiple full revolutions to go from zero to full volume. I was wondering if the scale factor was a parameter that could be modified (either through the user GUI or special service mode). Maybe, maybe not?

Regardless, this still does not explain why I can only get approx. 90db out of the receiver with volume at full scale. I can get 6 to 9 db more out of it if I over-ride Audyssey's attenuation factors after its done calibrating. But that's it. Not that I need to listen to movies / music at elevated volumes all the time. But, sometimes you want to "kick it up a notch" to get significant audible impact. I'm currently unable to do this. Something is limiting the gain of this receiver. I'd like to determine root cause.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Gerb
post #8992 of 10468
Thread Starter 
Nothing is limiting the gain. The pink noise test tones are 30dbfs (decibels below full scale). Have you tried cranking it on actual content (with a Blu ray action movie for example)? I guarantee you will record 100db+ on peaks with the volume set to reference level.

You seem like you know enough to understand that a 20w "on paper" difference in amp spec per ch is irrelevant to this discussion.
post #8993 of 10468
^

To reinforce "the pink noise test tones are 30dbfs (decibels below full scale)": the point is that the pink noise test tones are set very "low" or "soft" compared to the loudest tone that can exist on a disk or other digital source, which is 0 dbfs or full scale. The reason for this setting is to allow you to set your system to the reference level using the test tones and an SPL meter, without the test tones sounding extremely annoying, or sending any part of your system into clipping or limiting or compression. (BTW, on many systems, the components that will first reach severe compression and distortion if you "crank up the volume" are the speakers.)

When the test tones measure 90 dB at the main listening position, your system is set to 15 dB above reference level. Then movies on DVD or BluRay should sound very LOUD (15 dB above the reference = "movie theater" = "intended by the mastering engineers" level). Normal dialog will then be about 90 dB, which might sound like the actors are "shouting at the tops of their voices".

When the test tones measure 75 dB at the main listening position, movies on DVD or BluRay are playing at the reference = "movie theater" = "intended by the mastering engineers" level. Normal dialog will be about 75 dB, which should sound good and loud but not shouting. HOWEVER, many music disks or tracks, as well as television digital audio, will sound "OMG waay too loud!" to most people at "movie reference level", keep reading for explanation ...

Music is typically recorded louder than the movie reference level. The volume probably needs to be turned down anywhere from 5 dB to 15 dB (from movie reference level) to play a music disk or track at its "intended" level, which unfortunately is not well-defined (in contrast to movies, there isn't a standard reference level for recording and playing back music). The "turn down the volume at least 5 dB to 15 dB from movie reference level, for listening to music" suggestion is made by Audyssey in their discussion of the Reference Level Offset feature of Dynamic Eq.

And Audyssey suggests that "effective reference level" for TV audio is 10 dB below movie level. So the test tones will measure 65 dB with the system set at "TV audio reference".

Finally (I remember seeing this in another Audyssey document), most listeners find reference level too loud, and prefer 5 dB to 10 dB below reference or "effective reference" level. So, taking into account all these factors, "typical preferred" levels are:
Movies: master volume (MV) at -5 dB to -10 dB, pink noise test tones 65 dB to 70 dB
Music: MV -10 db to - 25 dB, test tones 50 dB to 65 dB
TV audio: MV -15 dB to -20 dB, test tones 55 dB to 60 dB


BTW, for experiments in setting different volume levels with test tones and then listening to program material, the following settings are recommended: Audyssey on, all settings especially trim levels at default values, Dynamic Eq off, Dynamic Volume off.
Edited by Sonic icons - 8/18/13 at 2:47pm
post #8994 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic icons View Post

^

When the test tones measure 75 dB at the main listening position, movies on DVD or BluRay are playing at the reference reference = "movie theater" = "intended by the mastering engineers" level. Normal dialog will be about 75 dB, which should sound good and loud but not shouting. Many music disks or tracks will sound "OMG waay too loud!" to most people at that level.

Important to note that although the test tones are put out at 75db, the reference level "range" used by the AVR is 85db-105db (speakers)/115db (LFE), So then after running Audyssey, with the AVR's master volume set at say an average listening level for movies of -20db/60, you would expect to hear audio in the "range" of 65db-85db/95db using a SPL meter at the main listening position.
post #8995 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Nothing is limiting the gain. The pink noise test tones are 30dbfs (decibels below full scale). Have you tried cranking it on actual content (with a Blu ray action movie for example)? I guarantee you will record 100db+ on peaks with the volume set to reference level.

You seem like you know enough to understand that a 20w "on paper" difference in amp spec per ch is irrelevant to this discussion.

Batpig,

I'm certain the AVR 1713 will have more than ample headroom for those dynamic movie scenes. However, the fact of the matter is I can't seem to get it very loud even when playing highly compressed modern rock. At least in comparison to more modest systems I have around the house. If I have some spare time perhaps I'll throw on some 0dbfs test tones and measure power delivered to each loudspeaker. This will be a good reference point. In the mean time there are no "not so obvious" settings that you know of that could be limiting the receiver, right?

Regards,

Gerb
Edited by Gerbermultit00l - 8/18/13 at 3:05pm
post #8996 of 10468
The only "obvious" settings that would limit the volume would be ...having Dynamic Volume set to ON and/or having the Source Level setting for that particular source set to a positive number (eg. +12db) rather than it's default setting of 0db, although this would simply limit the max master volume setting rather than the "actual" SPL.

What do you have the master volume setting at when you are achieving the max 90db SPL?
post #8997 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Important to note that although the test tones are put out at 75db, the reference level "range" used by the AVR is 85db-105db (speakers)/115db (LFE), So then after running Audyssey, with the AVR's master volume set at say an average listening level for movies of -20db/60, you would expect to hear audio in the "range" of 65db-85db/95db using a SPL meter at the main listening position.

I somewhat disagree with that, or at least think your explanation is not the best. I get unhappy with the way most people explain and talk about reference level. Here is how I would put it:

When you set your system to "movie reference level" by making the test tones play at 75dB at listening position, the following happens. The loudest possible sound from a full-range channel ("speaker") is 105dB. That's the "full scale" or 0 dBFS level. But the engineers usually leave some headroom (at least for movies), so any sound actually recorded on the disk is at least a few dB below 105 dB. The volume level for people talking normally ("dialog") is usually about 30 dB below "full scale", in other words close to the test tones. And all we can say about other sounds is, they are below 105 dB and they vary. Playing the movie at "reference level" means the LOUD sounds are as LOUD as the creators intended, and the medium sounds are as medium, and the soft sounds are as soft wink.gif The "anchor levels" to remember are full scale = 105 dB, test tones = 75 dB, dialog about 75 dB.
post #8998 of 10468
Feel free to disagree ... however, it comes straight from the Audyssey Co-founder's mouth ... wink.gif

post #8999 of 10468
I apologize for starting a topic and not being able to follow through. I got busy unexpectedly. It may be a few days before I can address. Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far.

Regards,

Gerb
post #9000 of 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

Feel free to disagree ... however, it comes straight from the Audyssey Co-founder's mouth ... wink.gif


Context is important ... I believe Chris was talking about calibration using test tones 20 dB below full-scale, then the SPL meter ("C-weighted, slow") reading should be 85 dB. I believe that's the practice in professional audio (recording studios). In home audio, we use test tones 30 dB below full-scale, and the SPL should measure 75 dB. (Maybe those prof audio folks need louder test tones because of high background noise in their environment.) The more general rule is:

desired SPL meter reading = 105 dB - X, where X is the test tone "offset" below full-scale (20 dB, 30 dB, whatever)

I'm sure Chris didn't mean that a movie soundtrack should have a fixed SPL of 85 dB every second from beginning to end, that wouldn't be a fun movie eek.gif
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