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Receiver vs. Preamp + amp - Page 3

post #61 of 86
There's some rock songs that fade in, that probably have more than a 40 dB dynamic range, and similar examples...if you want to count fade ins and fade outs, as soon as the signal is above the noise floor
post #62 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblademan View Post

what speakers was your 4311 powering that the receiver was inadequate for?

Infinity Primus Series. 153's for heights, wides, surrounds, and rears. 351's for left, center, right.

The power in the 4311 isn't going to be inadequate for everyone. I am very sensitive to harsh highs and almost always prefer soft dome tweeters and "laid back" amplification like NAD. I love that sound and it is very non fatiguing especially with music. Switching to external amplification absolutely, without a doubt, made things smoother with my gear.
post #63 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelscott73 View Post

I agree 100 percent with this statement as I did the same.

What amp did you go with?
post #64 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post

I said that there is some material out there that does have 30db range. Walbert said he has measured some old vinyl recordings with 40db range, so I don't see why you think my statement is so far out there. I did not say all material. I did not say most material. I said that there is material out there with 30db range. I also said most modern music does not have the range that you find in a lot of movies.


By Walbert
"From looking at some very old recordings (vinyl restoration) on a DAW, the largest dynamic range I've ever seen is around 40 dB."

Folks who listen to classical (and some jazz) music will find 30 dB and greater dynamic range is not uncommon. Until (as I understand it) very recently there has been zero loudness war in teh classical field, and likely only very gentle compression, if any, of the original tapes.

Pop music has (almost) always, at least since the 60s, been compressed for effect. A bit of output bus compression can sound very good indeed, without damaging the overall sound of the recording. The huge slamming that gets done too much today renders recordings that I cannot listen to loud. Many sound fine to me at low to moderate levels, but are hugely fatiguing to my ears, and just "sound wrong" if I want to hear them at anywhere near rock-approved levels.

On another topic, WRT power compression in speakers, IDK how you can fix it with amp power. If I have 3 dB of compression at, say 100 dB, I know I'll need more than 3 dB (double the power) of boost to fully overcome that compression, because the power compression gets worse and worse as you get louder and louder. If I turn up the volume control by say 4 dB, my should-be 100 dB sounds are at 100 dB, but the average (let's say it was at 80, for a 20 dB dynamic range) is also 3 or 4 dB louder, so I still don't have the dynamic range. Just louder more compressed sound, at say 84 to 100 dBinstead of 80 to 97 dB. Without something like a multichannel expander precisely tailored to one's speakers' actual input voltage versus output curve, the added power can only get you louder, but but cannot supply the missing dynamic range, as I understand it.
post #65 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

What amp did you go with?

Sherbourn 7/200. There is a matching 5 channel I am in the market for that I will use for the surrounds and rears. In a prior set up I had (3) NAD S200's which was perfection for me...believe it or not I had no itch to upgrade...but that was when I was single...I don't think 6 of them would fly with the wife. It was hard enough sneaking a VTH-15H down the basement.
post #66 of 86
I owned a Sherbourn 7/200 for years. A great amp. They don't make them like that anymore.
post #67 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

There's some rock songs that fade in, that probably have more than a 40 dB dynamic range, and similar examples...if you want to count fade ins and fade outs, as soon as the signal is above the noise floor

Quite a bit of information on the range dynamic range for digital audio here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

Doesn't really pertain to vinyl, though.
post #68 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

There's some rock songs that fade in, that probably have more than a 40 dB dynamic range, and similar examples...if you want to count fade ins and fade outs, as soon as the signal is above the noise floor

Oh that too. If you look at modern tracks that "fade in" you might see jumps in the 70-80 dB range from nothing to "full blast."

I was talking more actual material though. I agree with JHAz as well.
post #69 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Folks who listen to classical (and some jazz) music will find 30 dB and greater dynamic range is not uncommon. Until (as I understand it) very recently there has been zero loudness war in teh classical field, and likely only very gentle compression, if any, of the original tapes.

Pop music has (almost) always, at least since the 60s, been compressed for effect. A bit of output bus compression can sound very good indeed, without damaging the overall sound of the recording. The huge slamming that gets done too much today renders recordings that I cannot listen to loud. Many sound fine to me at low to moderate levels, but are hugely fatiguing to my ears, and just "sound wrong" if I want to hear them at anywhere near rock-approved levels.

On another topic, WRT power compression in speakers, IDK how you can fix it with amp power. If I have 3 dB of compression at, say 100 dB, I know I'll need more than 3 dB (double the power) of boost to fully overcome that compression, because the power compression gets worse and worse as you get louder and louder. If I turn up the volume control by say 4 dB, my should-be 100 dB sounds are at 100 dB, but the average (let's say it was at 80, for a 20 dB dynamic range) is also 3 or 4 dB louder, so I still don't have the dynamic range. Just louder more compressed sound, at say 84 to 100 dBinstead of 80 to 97 dB. Without something like a multichannel expander precisely tailored to one's speakers' actual input voltage versus output curve, the added power can only get you louder, but but cannot supply the missing dynamic range, as I understand it.

I agree, but you can't just ignore the fact that you have power compression. So how else should you look at it since power compression starts around 1/10th the rated power of a speaker. I am not adding it on, I am subtracting 3db for power compression and 3db is probably a conservative estimate, once you start pushing a speaker.
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post #70 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

What I noticed when adding an ATI 2007 is that the harshness which bothered me so much with the Denon 4311ci amps disappeared and that details and sounds seemed to spring from my surrounds.

Could be psychological....I don't know...but I like my system now.

Glashub, No, it's not ur imagination not is it psychological. In most AVRs, u have one power supply for all channels driven. In seperates, u hv a power supply for the amp section and one for the preamp section. Usually, when u seperate things, you're going to get better dynamics, better separation, better soundstage, etc. You'll really hear the difference in the subtle nuances of a movie soundtrack as well as in music. After all, it's mostly about the current, not the watts...right? Which speakers are u using?
post #71 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblademan View Post

Hello all

I'm planning to build a new home theater system

I'm trying to decide what to get, a receiver or a preamp + amp combo

A preamp and amp combo costs more than a receiver, but if the watts per
channel are the same (or sometimes more in the case of a receiver), what are the advantages of getting the combo?

example:

preamp 7 x 140W Continuous Power

vs

receiver: 160 watts per channel

I'm getting a pair of Polk Audio speakers, Rtia9 and a pair of Fxia6 and
a Csia6

I would appreciate any feedback

Thanks

Blademan, Don't be too concerned with watts. I would be more concerned with the current output. Like someone said earlier, all watts are not the same. Polk audio is a fairly easy speaker to drive. Things to consider when looking at AVR or seperates is, speaker impedance, room size, listening habits, etc. Ususally, AVRs have one power supply for everything. Seperates hv power supplies for each piece. Can sometimes lead to lower noise floor, greater subtle nuances with movies and music. Seperates can be more versatile in that you later upgrade the amp if u later change speakers. With an AVR, u have what u have! I guess it all depends on what ur ultimate listening goal is. Something also to know, is that some AVRs can have a difficult time with 4ohms. Good luck and happy listening!
post #72 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by ap1 View Post

They have similar sound quality. Use features set to chhose what you want more. Also keep in mind that Onkyo has major quality problems in the last few years. I do not know if they solve them now.

Ive put in nothing but ONKYO receivers last year and I have only had one fail but was repaird by ONKYO under the warrenty. I have hear a lot of stories about Denon failing and to me it seemed they had a worse record.

I started this year out with Denon since onkyo was in a transision to the new models and I must say the new Denon 13 series is problably going to change the numbers for Denon. Its seems to be an improved line and they took alot of un necessary stuff off the front of the receiver so the consumer wont be screwing up there systems once they are set up. You know the dreded, the cleaning lady must have pressed a button becaus nothing is working now....

Id say look at Denon, Onkyo and Marantz you wont go wrong with any of these guys.
post #73 of 86
Yet another reason to not have cleaning ladies...if I did have a cleaning lady, she would be told to not touch the AV rack and TV area
post #74 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman View Post

Yet another reason to not have cleaning ladies...if I did have a cleaning lady, she would be told to not touch the AV rack and TV area

YOUR DAMN RIGHT

I was at a clients home yesterday. I sold him a 65" samsung LED last christmas and I noticed the bezel had what looked like "burn" marks from cleaning agents.... The main bezel is a grey color and looks like brushed aluminum but there were some white spots in the brushing that looked like some kind of cleaner ruined the finish. The screen surface was flawless so I have no idea what the hell they are cleaning with over there, My client said he would tell the clenaing lady not to mess with the TV any more.....
post #75 of 86
I would be curious who the heii let's anyone besides themselves clean their audio/video gear?
post #76 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

Glashub, No, it's not ur imagination not is it psychological. In most AVRs, u have one power supply for all channels driven. In seperates, u hv a power supply for the amp section and one for the preamp section. Usually, when u seperate things, you're going to get better dynamics, better separation, better soundstage, etc. You'll really hear the difference in the subtle nuances of a movie soundtrack as well as in music. After all, it's mostly about the current, not the watts...right? Which speakers are u using?

Boston Acoustics VS Series. Was their top of the line.
post #77 of 86
Someone in this thread mentioned room treatments and I'm hoping for advice. I've already chosen curtains, but wondering whether I should purchase a berber or shag carpet. Will thick shag slow down the sound waves before they reach my sofa? I don't want any lip-synch delays.

I'm not concerned about Receiver compression. Though my Yamaha is one of the older models, I added a fifth foot - like the Aventage line - to stiffen it up. It shouldn't compress with the added support.
post #78 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by UndersAVS View Post

Someone in this thread mentioned room treatments and I'm hoping for advice. I've already chosen curtains, but wondering whether I should purchase a berber or shag carpet. Will thick shag slow down the sound waves before they reach my sofa? I don't want any lip-synch delays.

Yeah, shag carpet will definitely slow down your sound. Dialog will sound like it is in slow motion. If you really want polished sound, particularly fast bass, you need to set up your system on an ice rink.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UndersAVS View Post

I'm not concerned about Receiver compression. Though my Yamaha is one of the older models, I added a fifth foot - like the Aventage line - to stiffen it up. It shouldn't compress with the added support.

Good thinking. Amp compression can really squash dynamics and flatten the soundstage.

AJ
post #79 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlassWolf View Post

...which is exactly why I said to use a separate amplifier for the larger caps and toroids... I just didn't take 5 paragraphs to explain the reasoning behind that, as you did. Thanks for adding that in.
You've apparently misinterpreted what I was saying to the OP. My point was that statements like "my AVR has 150 WPC and this stand-alone amp only has 130WPC, so the AVR is 'more powerful'" don't work. An AVR isn't built to have the reserve power that a bigger, heavier amp has, with massive caps and power supplies.
This is why my own system uses Onkyo's flagship AVR, but I still use separate amplifiers for my front 3 speakers.

what speakers do you use for LCR, and what amp are you using to power them?
post #80 of 86
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparks81 View Post

Blademan, Don't be too concerned with watts. I would be more concerned with the current output. Like someone said earlier, all watts are not the same. Polk audio is a fairly easy speaker to drive. Things to consider when looking at AVR or seperates is, speaker impedance, room size, listening habits, etc. Ususally, AVRs have one power supply for everything. Seperates hv power supplies for each piece. Can sometimes lead to lower noise floor, greater subtle nuances with movies and music. Seperates can be more versatile in that you later upgrade the amp if u later change speakers. With an AVR, u have what u have! I guess it all depends on what ur ultimate listening goal is. Something also to know, is that some AVRs can have a difficult time with 4ohms. Good luck and happy listening!

the 4311 that I listened to has a preout for an amplifier, and I understand that allows the user to add a separate power amp to it later on, correct me if i'm wrong

what preamp and amp do you feel is adequate to power the polks?

I am just about to drown with all the info on this thread
post #81 of 86
4311 would do fine as a prepro. Amp wise emotiva offers great value.
post #82 of 86
I am currently using an Onkyo 3009 with a Parasound A51 with excellent results. I had the 4311 in there last week. Both are very good but I like the 3009 for my DirecTv video processing. It is far more superior. Both the 3009 and 4311 can handle my backs and rears with ease. My best sound improvement has been adding BG Radia speakers though. For my fronts (420s) and definitely the Center (220).

As for quality control let's just say any brand can have an issue. My first 4311 that came two weeks ago did not send sound to the speakers! And out of all the Onkyo receivers I have reviewed I have only had one with an issue. Its remote sensor was non existent.

Good luck and have fun!
post #83 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblademan View Post

what speakers do you use for LCR, and what amp are you using to power them?

KEF Reference 104/2 and 200C, Adcom GFA-555II (mains) and Emotiva XPA-3 (center, surrounds)
I've also used MartinLogan Ascents as my mains, as well as a KEF Reference Three~Two pair. I wouldn't mind buying another pair of wither of the last two speakers. I really liked both.
post #84 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by stash64 View Post


Very interesting. I've made this same argument many a times, but just based on my own experience when using an AVR with an external amp... so it is good to hear someone has actually validated this phenomenon with instruments.


The control and dynamics an external amp provides has been obvious to me the first time I hooked up an external amp. Many AVR's, amps, and now pre-amps later, I've yet to hear an AVR by itself come close to matching the impact of an external amp, even at moderate listening levels. A clash of cymbals, for instance, comes on harder and faster. An explosion on a movie soundtrack is simply more explosive. A good external amp is able to reproduce the source material and its peaks and valleys more faithfully, with or without EQ processing.


A good analogy would be to compare an AVR's amps to an economy car, while an external amp with the large robust power supply, capacitors, etc is more like a Corvette. The AVR simply can not match the acceleraton (dynamic peaks) or stopping power or handling (driver control) of a well made external amp.


So if dynamics and control (acceleration and handling) are not important to you or if you have tiny little speakers that can't put the power down anyway, you might as well stick with your AVR (compact economy car).

sorry for trolling, but a Corvette is trash...even the c7's.....
post #85 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by linh View Post

sorry for trolling, but a Corvette is trash...even the c7's.....

Hmm. And what alternative car offers anything close to the performance of the C6/7 Corvette for under $60k new?
post #86 of 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy View Post

Hmm. And what alternative car offers anything close to the performance of the C6/7 Corvette for under $60k new?

Agree with you 10000%

The ZR1 and some custom ZO6's could compete with the best of them.
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