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The Official Panasonic VT50 Settings Thread - Page 54

post #1591 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post



So Kevin Miller (Monitorman), Chad B, and Jeff Meier(UMR) all recommend 60 Hz and you hope they are wrong? You're betting on a very long shot. smile.gif


you are making assumptions on Chad B and UMR's behalves that they did not make. That they set someones set to 60hz only means that they most likely believe that 60hz is the ideal setting and not that they believe 96hz is a conversion from 60hz.
post #1592 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post



So Kevin Miller (Monitorman), Chad B, and Jeff Meier(UMR) all recommend 60 Hz and you hope they are wrong? You're betting on a very long shot. smile.gif
You can also include me in recommending 60Hz
post #1593 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

You can also include me in recommending 60Hz

you are mistaking the OP's original issue. He was referring to this statement by Kevin:

Just read this from Kevin Miller about the 96Hz setting on the VT50:
"... the Panasonic VT50 series as the Panasonic first takes the signal to 60Hz inserting 2:3 pull-down before then converting the signal to 96Hz. This produces an unacceptable amount of jitter in the picture and is best left at the 60Hz setting in the Panasonic."

He's hoping that Kevin is mistaken about how the player achieves 96Hz.



So the question is whether you agree with Kevin about the inerstion of 2:3 pulldown before converting to 96hz from a 24p signal?
post #1594 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post



So Kevin Miller (Monitorman), Chad B, and Jeff Meier(UMR) all recommend 60 Hz and you hope they are wrong? You're betting on a very long shot. smile.gif
You can also include me in recommending 60Hz
I almost added your user name just to make the point stronger. Something like, "All we need now is tor D-NIce to chime in". biggrin.gif
post #1595 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post



So Kevin Miller (Monitorman), Chad B, and Jeff Meier(UMR) all recommend 60 Hz and you hope they are wrong? You're betting on a very long shot. smile.gif


you are making assumptions on Chad B and UMR's behalves that they did not make. That they set someones set to 60hz only means that they most likely believe that 60hz is the ideal setting and not that they believe 96hz is a conversion from 60hz.
Sixty years ago, when I was in flight school, we received demerits for almost anything. One was for quibbling. I think your objection verges on a quibble. The point is that four well known professional calibrators use 60 Hz because they think it's better. Kevin Miller has offered an explanation for why it's better. smile.gif

EDIT: I also made the point in reference to "recommendations" made by the three, now four, calibrators. I was not referring to Kevin Miller's explanation.
post #1596 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hastor2 View Post

I'd be surprised if this was the case, as it won't even let you select 96hz when inputting 60hz. This leads me to believe that it won't convert 60hz to 96 hz, so why should it here? I do notice judder more in 96hz, but I think it is due to a combination of the flickering, and the fact that pulldown can mask native 24p judder from the source some.

Kevin Miller is a well-respected isf calibrator. I don't think he would commit such a thing onto "paper" so to speak, without being sure of it. Whether one can select 96Hz when inputting 60Hz has nothing to do with how 24Hz material is up-scanned to 96Hz.

When speaking of judder, it is important to distinguish between pulldown judder and low frame rate judder. Low frame rate judder is unavoidable since it is at the source. Low frame rate judder can be smoothed out with frame interpolation, but creates what most call "Soap Opera Effect."

Pulldown judder (or telecine judder) is created when applying pulldown The goal of up-scanning 24Hz material to 48Hz and 96Hz is to eliminate pulldown judder. It does not affect Low frame rate judder. When most people refer to judder or jitter, they are most likely referring to pulldown judder. Especially when speaking to 24Hz/48Hz/96Hz modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hastor2 View Post

This would especially be true if the pulldown works as I've heard on the VT50, where instead of playing frames like AAABBCCC, it does AAxBBxCC where x is a combination of the adjacent frames. While this introcuces blended frames, it also results in each image being on-screen for the same amount of time, as long as you count half images.

If the VT50 uses blended frames in their 2:3 pulldown algorithm, it would result in lowered resolution whenever the camera is moving. Do you have a source for this hypothesis?
post #1597 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Sixty years ago, when I was in flight school, we received demerits for almost anything. One was for quibbling. I think your objection verges on a quibble. The point is that four well known professional calibrators use 60 Hz because they think it's better. Kevin Miller has offered an explanation for why it's better. smile.gif

Actually you shifted the scope of the original question and twisted it around (unintentionally I originally thought). Everyone in here knows that 60hz is the recommended. The question is still whether 96hz is broken because of inherent 24p judder - or whether Kevin is right and the tv is doing something dumb like convert it to 60hz with 2:3 pull down and then convert it again to 96hz,w hich would be broken and be worthy of fixing in the future. Its ok if you just don't understand, but coming in here and bullying someone over a legitimate question is silly.
post #1598 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

you are mistaking the OP's original issue. He was referring to this statement by Kevin:

Just read this from Kevin Miller about the 96Hz setting on the VT50:
"... the Panasonic VT50 series as the Panasonic first takes the signal to 60Hz inserting 2:3 pull-down before then converting the signal to 96Hz. This produces an unacceptable amount of jitter in the picture and is best left at the 60Hz setting in the Panasonic."

He's hoping that Kevin is mistaken about how the player achieves 96Hz.

So the question is whether you agree with Kevin about the inerstion of 2:3 pulldown before converting to 96hz from a 24p signal?

Thanx--that's exactly what I meant.


Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

So Kevin Miller (Monitorman), Chad B, and Jeff Meier(UMR) all recommend 60 Hz and you hope they are wrong? You're betting on a very long shot. smile.gif

No--read what I said. I didn't question their recommendation nor make a bet. My hope was that Kevin is mistaken about how Panasonic achieves the 96Hz scanning rate since that would be an egregious way to do it. Which would likely explain some expert calibrators' preference/recommendations to use 60Hz instead of 96Hz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Sixty years ago, when I was in flight school, we received demerits for almost anything. One was for quibbling. I think your objection verges on a quibble. The point is that four well known professional calibrators use 60 Hz because they think it's better. Kevin Miller has offered an explanation for why it's better. smile.gif

EDIT: I also made the point in reference to "recommendations" made by the three, now four, calibrators. I was not referring to Kevin Miller's explanation.

The point is if who's to say that if Panasonic up-scanned to 96Hz correctly (without the 2:3 pulldown to 60Hz first) that it wouldn't be better than the current 60Hz mode? At the very least, it would eliminate pulldown judder, and we already know that the black levels are slightly better at 96Hz than 60Hz.

If indeed Panasonic flubbed on the 96Hz mode, I wonder if it's that hard to fix via a firmware update. Although I'm not holding my breath now that the 2013 sets are out. Why wasn't this revealed a lot earlier? Is this the way it's implemented in the ST60/VT60/ZT60? I sure hope not.
Edited by Rice Rocket - 3/25/13 at 5:17pm
post #1599 of 2130
RiceRocket, you bring up an excellent point and thanks for sharing the Kevin Miller part, I had never heard that explanation for what 96hz was doing so differently. If its happening that way, then interpolating the frames correctly could do nothing more than improve that mode.


I'm sure Htwaits just misunderstood your original question though, and as we know he has an army of calibrators reading his posts smile.gif.
post #1600 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice Rocket View Post

Thanx--that's exactly what I meant.
No--read what I said. I didn't question their recommendation nor make a bet. My hope was that Kevin is mistaken about how Panasonic achieves the 96Hz scanning rate since that would be an egregious way to do it. Which would likely explain some expert calibrators' preference/recommendations to use 60Hz instead of 96Hz.
The point is if who's to say that if Panasonic up-scanned to 96Hz correctly (without the 2:3 pulldown to 60Hz first) that it wouldn't be better than the current 60Hz mode? At the very least, it would eliminate pulldown judder, and we already know that the black levels are slightly better at 96Hz than 60Hz.

If indeed Panasonic flubbed on the 96Hz mode, I wonder if it's that hard to fix via a firmware update. Although I'm not holding my breath now that the 2013 sets are out. Why wasn't this revealed a lot earlier? Is this the way it's implemented in the ST60/VT60/ZT60? I sure hope not.
Please refrain from using "scanned" when speaking on this subject. It makes no sense as we are talking about a progressive signal type and displayed image.

Now on to Kevin's comment....

As far as I know, the VT50 nor any other Panasonic model with 96Hz, past or present, converts to 60Hz before displaying at 96Hz. 96Hz is simply a doubling of their 48Hz display processing... which does not work well with how their display creates an image on the screen. That is why both modes 'flicker' even with static images. Funny how their 96Hz mode reminds me of the flicker I see at the Theater when that was supposed to be the function of 48Hz.
post #1601 of 2130
Man, some of you sure can heap on.

The guy wasnt' questioning Kevins resume or whether the calibrators are correct in using 60hz, he just hoped that his explanation how 96hz mode works is wrong. When I read that a minute ago I was a little shocked myself, and while I know Kevin's credentials, Id still like to hear someone else confirm that just to be sure. And lets be honest, calibrators make mistakes as well, so they arent infallible. Id like to hear the source for the info, or at lease get a little more background on why Panasonic would do something so stupid.

Ive seen how ridiculous the flicker is in 48hz mode, Im not sure why they even have that around anymore, but 96hz has not flickered too much to my eyes so at least I dont have that problem. Just using blu-ray test patterns Ive seen some funky things going on with 60hz mode too, and can see artifacts as well in blu-ray content. Neither mode is perfect, but 60hz was fine for me on my 2011.

The best advice may be to get a reliable blu-ray player and turn 24p off smile.gif (send 1080p/60 from the player).

Edit: I see D-Nice just replied with his take on it, thanks!
post #1602 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Please refrain from using "scanned" when speaking on this subject. It makes no sense as we are talking about a progressive signal type and displayed image.

I believe "scanning" refers to the rate at which an image is "drawn" onto CRT's, LCD's, Plasmas, and other similar display technology. Nothing to do with whether the signal type is progressive or not. The "Hz" refers to the number of times the screen is scanned or "re-drawn" per second. This is technically a correct term to use IMO, and I use it interchangeably with "refresh rate." Are you afraid that it's being mistaken for whether the signal is interlaced/progressive?


Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Now on to Kevin's comment....

As far as I know, the VT50 nor any other Panasonic model with 96Hz, past or present, converts to 60Hz before displaying at 96Hz. 96Hz is simply a doubling of their 48Hz display processing... which does not work well with how their display creates an image on the screen. That is why both modes 'flicker' even with static images. Funny how their 96Hz mode reminds me of the flicker I see at the Theater when that was supposed to be the function of 48Hz.

So you're disagreeing with Kevin on how the 96Hz mode works on the VT50! Maybe Kevin will read this and let us know his source for why he believes how the 96Hz mode works on the VT50.
post #1603 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice Rocket View Post

I believe "scanning" refers to the rate at which an image is "drawn" onto CRT's, LCD's, Plasmas, and other similar display technology. Nothing to do with whether the signal type is progressive or not. The Hz refers to the number of times the screen is scanned or "re-drawn" per second. This is technically a correct term to use IMO. Are you afraid that it's being mistaken for whether the signal is interlaced/progressive?
So you're disagreeing with Kevin on how the 96Hz mode works on the VT50! Maybe Kevin will read this and let us know his source for why he believes how the 96Hz mode works on the VT60.

Someone could always email Kevin. I have before and while he is busy, he did reply. It's a very peculiar choice if it indeed does that.
post #1604 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice Rocket View Post

I believe "scanning" refers to the rate at which an image is "drawn" onto CRT's, LCD's, Plasmas, and other similar display technology. Nothing to do with whether the signal type is progressive or not.
And you would be wrong. I suggest you lookup how PDPs and LCDs produce images.
Quote:
So you're disagreeing with Kevin on how the 96Hz mode works on the VT50! Maybe Kevin will read this and let us know his source for why he believes how the 96Hz mode works on the VT50.
I disagree and so what if I do? My post on 96Hz refers to all Panasonics with that mode. The VT50, as well as the other 2012 Panasonic PDPs do a lot of processing. Some of that processing could cause the jitter that Kevin sees.
post #1605 of 2130
I read his review at Tweak TV and dont see anything about it. Where did the quote posted previously come from?

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/panasonic-tc-p65vt50-pdp.-best-hdtv-on-the-market.html
Quote:
VIDEO PROCESSING: The Panasonic TC-P65VT50 VT50 de-interlaces 1080i film based content from broadcast sources like cable and satellite well as evidenced by the fact that it passes the Video Resolution Loss test on the Silicon Optix HQV Blu-ray test disc. The Panasonic plasmas have had problems with how they handle 1080p/24fps content from Blu-ray for years now. Last year’s VT30 series exhibited severe jitter when the 96Hz feature was engaged for Blu-ray playback. This year’s VT50s handle 1080p.24fps much better, but still not perfectly as there is still some jitter visible. I personally would use the 60Hz setting because the jitter is noticeable, but some will find this minor issue acceptable, and may want to use the 96Hz setting. The panel did not pass the Spears & Munsil 1080p/24 Wedge test exhibiting significant tearing and moiré artifacts.
post #1606 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

And you would be wrong. I suggest you lookup how PDPs and LCDs produce images.
I disagree and so what if I do? My post on 96Hz refers to all Panasonics with that mode. The VT50, as well as the other 2012 Panasonic PDPs do a lot of processing. Some of that processing could cause the jitter that Kevin sees.

Alright--I give. I shall henceforth refer to it as refresh rate. There, better? Jeesh.

And there's nothing wrong with you disagreeing with Kevin. The point was that if Kevin is right, then Panasonic flubbed their implementation of the 96Hz mode. And Panasonic should fix it. That's all.
post #1607 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I read his review at Tweak TV and dont see anything about it. Where did the quote posted previously come from?

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/panasonic-tc-p65vt50-pdp.-best-hdtv-on-the-market.html

That quote from Kevin came from his latest "early review" of the new Samsung plasma. Look under "Signal Processing" where he's comparing the 96Hz modes with the Panny.
post #1608 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

I'm sure Htwaits just misunderstood your original question though, and as we know he has an army of calibrators reading his posts smile.gif.
Now I'm not sure what I understood. eek.gif

As for bullying, I thought I was teasing. D-Nice hasn't been around for a while. I'm always happy when he shows up. By the way, UMR and D-Nice have corrected me many times over the past several years. I'm always happy when they do. smile.gif

I'm happy that there seems to be agreement that 60 Hz is the current "recommended" setting. Trust my emoticons! biggrin.gif
post #1609 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rice Rocket View Post

That quote from Kevin came from his latest "early review" of the new Samsung plasma. Look under "Signal Processing" where he's comparing the 96Hz modes with the Panny.
It's going to be interesting to follow the new Samsung and Panasonic releases. Thanks for the link.
post #1610 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post


The best advice may be to get a reliable blu-ray player and turn 24p off smile.gif (send 1080p/60 from the player).

Edit: I see D-Nice just replied with his take on it, thanks!
That's what we do with our BDP-93.
Edited by htwaits - 3/25/13 at 7:21pm
post #1611 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

It's going to be interesting to follow the new Samsung and Panasonic releases. Thanks for the link.[/quote

AVS seems to have its own version of March Madness every year.
post #1612 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

Now I'm not sure what I understood. eek.gif

As for bullying, I thought I was teasing. D-Nice hasn't been around for a while. I'm always happy when he shows up. By the way, UMR and D-Nice have corrected me many times over the past several years. I'm always happy when they do. smile.gif

I'm happy that there seems to be agreement that 60 Hz is the current "recommended" setting. Trust my emoticons! biggrin.gif

We've always been in agreement wink.gif

I think your friend dnice could use a demerit regarding his 'scanning' quibbles though. biggrin.gif
post #1613 of 2130
So now it's down to Kevin vs D opinions. I'm inclined to go with D simply because that's always what I thought the mode did - it'd be dumb to do it otherwise, no?
post #1614 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post


I think your friend dnice could use a demerit regarding his 'scanning' quibbles though. biggrin.gif
D-NIce and I have met once. We were friendly, and D-Nice was very helpful as he calibrated my nephew's display. smile.gif

I'm not in the "scanning" discussion, but when I see the word in this context, I think about a CRT electron beam starting in the upper left hand corner and scanning every other line to the bottom of the screen, and then returning to the top to scan the skipped lines one line at a time. As fast as the beam scans, there is the possibility of change in the "frame" before the beam has covered the entire screen one time.

When I think of flat panel and chip based projection, I think of filling a memory buffer that builds a complete frame before the buffer is moved to the screen in one computer action.

The CRT example is what I think of as interlaced, and the buffer method is what I think of as progressive.

That's how I've explained it to myself. Maybe I think that way because of my back ground in programming. wink.gif
post #1615 of 2130
Hey hey you do see it like I do wink.gif. So a CRT with progressive 'scan' running 540p would not be considered interlaced? tongue.gif. the etymology of 'progressive' is kind of interesting and the 'p' no longer really stands for what it used to, but of course the overall meaning/ end effect remains the same to me.
post #1616 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I read his review at Tweak TV and dont see anything about it. Where did the quote posted previously come from?

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/panasonic-tc-p65vt50-pdp.-best-hdtv-on-the-market.html
Quote:
VIDEO PROCESSING: The Panasonic TC-P65VT50 VT50 de-interlaces 1080i film based content from broadcast sources like cable and satellite well as evidenced by the fact that it passes the Video Resolution Loss test on the Silicon Optix HQV Blu-ray test disc. The Panasonic plasmas have had problems with how they handle 1080p/24fps content from Blu-ray for years now. Last year’s VT30 series exhibited severe jitter when the 96Hz feature was engaged for Blu-ray playback. This year’s VT50s handle 1080p.24fps much better, but still not perfectly as there is still some jitter visible. I personally would use the 60Hz setting because the jitter is noticeable, but some will find this minor issue acceptable, and may want to use the 96Hz setting. The panel did not pass the Spears & Munsil 1080p/24 Wedge test exhibiting significant tearing and moiré artifacts.

Good question, where did the quote posted previously come from?
post #1617 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by mo949 View Post

Hey hey you do see it like I do wink.gif. So a CRT with progressive 'scan' running 540p would not be considered interlaced? tongue.gif. the etymology of 'progressive' is kind of interesting and the 'p' no longer really stands for what it used to, but of course the overall meaning/ end effect remains the same to me.
I should have posted before I got the urge to use Google. My story about building frames in memory may not be of any use to anyone but me.

It's very clear that we are way off topic.

Here is another story, with a definition of SDTV and HDTV that's not exactly the current standard, but it does give the history of Interlaced and Progressive CRT displays for computing and TV. It appears to have been written back when CRT computer monitors were common.

Progressive and Interlaced

I may look up flat panels and chip based projectors. Maybe my story works with them. wink.gif
post #1618 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheshechic View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by gadgtfreek View Post

I read his review at Tweak TV and dont see anything about it. Where did the quote posted previously come from?

http://www.tweaktv.com/in-dspth-hdtv-reviews/panasonic-tc-p65vt50-pdp.-best-hdtv-on-the-market.html
Quote:
VIDEO PROCESSING: The Panasonic TC-P65VT50 VT50 de-interlaces 1080i film based content from broadcast sources like cable and satellite well as evidenced by the fact that it passes the Video Resolution Loss test on the Silicon Optix HQV Blu-ray test disc. The Panasonic plasmas have had problems with how they handle 1080p/24fps content from Blu-ray for years now. Last year’s VT30 series exhibited severe jitter when the 96Hz feature was engaged for Blu-ray playback. This year’s VT50s handle 1080p.24fps much better, but still not perfectly as there is still some jitter visible. I personally would use the 60Hz setting because the jitter is noticeable, but some will find this minor issue acceptable, and may want to use the 96Hz setting. The panel did not pass the Spears & Munsil 1080p/24 Wedge test exhibiting significant tearing and moiré artifacts.

Good question, where did the quote posted previously come from?
Here under Video Processing.

You are looking at the 2012 Panasonic review, not the new 2013 Samsung review.
post #1619 of 2130
I mainly use 96Hz mode for my VT50 when I calibrate a LUT cube using my Mini 3D set at 4:2:2 Yc... (12 bit) for output to generate the triplet patterns for the LUT calibration. I also have my VT50 set at 4:2:2.

Depending on the Blu Ray disc (movie) I am viewing I use 96Hz mode, but I am using the Mini 3D or eecolor as a processor and storage for the LUT cube calibrations.
I mostly don't get any flickering using the 96Hz mode but I do get a little blurring in very fine line colors at times but not very much.
Of-course If there is more blurring than very little I use 64Hz mode to view the Blu Ray.

ss
post #1620 of 2130
Quote:
Originally Posted by htwaits View Post

D-NIce and I have met once. We were friendly, and D-Nice was very helpful as he calibrated my nephew's display. smile.gif

I'm not in the "scanning" discussion, but when I see the word in this context, I think about a CRT electron beam starting in the upper left hand corner and scanning every other line to the bottom of the screen, and then returning to the top to scan the skipped lines one line at a time. As fast as the beam scans, there is the possibility of change in the "frame" before the beam has covered the entire screen one time.

When I think of flat panel and chip based projection, I think of filling a memory buffer that builds a complete frame before the buffer is moved to the screen in one computer action.

The CRT example is what I think of as interlaced, and the buffer method is what I think of as progressive.

That's how I've explained it to myself. Maybe I think that way because of my back ground in programming. wink.gif
Thank you!!!!!!
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