Official Emotiva UPA-500 AMP Discussion Thread - Page 3

Drat. I should have specified "non Denon or Marantz."

After dealing with Denon's piss-poor customer service after my 4308ci failed, I'm not inclined to give them future business.

Again, UL is not the only OSHA-approved NRTL.

Second, I think the reason for the distinction might be simply that people didn't know. Here, I didn't, because honestly I never thought to look. Perhaps that's an oversight.

But one reason for it reason for that is that a disk player is a low voltage and low current device. An amp is, obviously, neither of those those things.

If Oppo sold an amp without NRTL certification, I would not consider it.

And again, it's worth noting here that Oppo is in compliance with federal regs, whereas Emotiva's digital gear does not seem to be.

The CE logo means basically nothing. It has no jurisdictional effect in the U.S., and is a self-certification

The FCC logo means, for purposes of a digital disk reader/switching power supply/ DAC, that it complies with federal regulations in 47 CFR § 15 et seq. (aka "FCC Part 15") Unlike NRTL safety certification, compliance with 47 CFR § 15 is mandatory. I'm honestly not sure if an independent lab has to test the gear, or if the manufacturer can self-certify. But without it, the part is in violation of federal regulations.

Emotiva's history of playing fast and loose with both mandatory and voluntary standards rightfully causes some people to pause, and inspect them more carefully.

How would this go paired with an 818 more of a downward move?

But in all honesty their processor is inferior to what's available from Yamaha, Onkyo and Denon. So why spend that amount of money when you can get more out of an Onkyo? And my 818 doesn't run that hot.

This product seems really weak for what it is. Unless I'm missing something about this thing?

Unfortunately, you missed the point of the Onkyos getting "hot".
They get "hot" because of the HDMI board.
Thus separates, ie preamps and power amps, won't solve this problem at all, because the prozessor is usually part of the preamp, thus using separates like a PR-SC5509 plus power amp, will still have the same issues if any.
The culprit is usually the video prozessor, which dissipates a lot of heat without a fan and heat sink, thus creating local thermal "hot spots".

I also thought that most of the heat in a receiver, under "normal" operation was from all the ASICs (application specific integrated circuit) chips. While some receivers bias the output transistors more into class A, thus increasing idle heat, I doubt that's making the difference.

I believe, newer designs may run cooler. Yamaha definitely improved since the RX-V2700, which was painful to touch due to how hot it ran. My Z7 runs a lot cooler than my 2700 did.

Would it be wise to purchase the UPA-500 when I have an onkyo HT-RC370 and Bic Acoustech PL-89 HT system?

Have you had all of these in you home to be able to claim that the UMC-1 is inferior? I have and the SQ of the UMC is superior IMO.
I had Onkyo 3008, Denon 4310 and 4311 and Yamaha A3000. The 4311 with XT32 beat the other AVR's. In fact, prior to the XT32 I did not like the other room correction functions.
I know that most will flame my comments about RC. Really doesn't matter to me as I am the one listening. SQ of the UMC, to me, beats all the others and my subs sound best with the UMC.
Good luck with the 818.

Audioholics just made a review on the UPA-500. This amp caught my eye when it came out so I've been waiting for some actual tests on it. Measurements are good except for some distortion. They didn't say anything about damping factor but the Emotiva specs state 500 at 8 ohms which is impressive. One thing I didn't like was that they used some fairly weak music for the listening tests. I don't have anything against the artists or the kind of music but I think they could have used more energetic music that would test the amp better. Like Seasons in the Abyss by Slayer or Sepultura's Altered State. Just some examples.

I'm now thinking about getting the Onkyo MC5500 which has multiple independent power supplies and 150 watts but with a low damping factor of 60. Maybe the UPA-500 would be a better choice. So it comes down to Onkyo's low damping factor but multiple power supplies vs Emotiva's single toroid but high damping factor. Emotiva doesn't have certification listed on the back of the unit so that worries me a little.
Edited by Alec88 - 8/10/12 at 11:55am

If the amp had noticeable distortion think how your music choice would add to that.
How about a 30 minute song by ZZ Top or a couple hours of Yanni.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/damptoole.htm

Floyd E. Toole

In the real world you probably would not tell them apart.

Typical speakers add distortion of perhaps 1% - 5%, more in the deep bass region. The distortion added by everything up to that point is usually in the mud.

High damping factor, above maybe 20 - 50 (depending upon the source), does not matter for most speakers. It used to be >100 was considered excellent (my old PL700 spec'd >1000 but was far from the best amp I have had). I think it more irrelevant today due to the use of subwoofers for the deepest bass, and use it mainly as a measure of how good (low-impedance) the output stage of the amp (high DF may mean it is more likely to handle difficult loads well).

Independent power supplies may improve crosstalk, but I have yet to see crosstalk be a concern on any amp today. Independent supplies also allow sag in one amp to not impact another's power output, theoretically, but in practice if there's a big signal it probably hits every channel so the advantage is arguable. Another counter is multiple supplies generally have less current and charge storage capacity than a single large one, so the single supply might actually ride out peaks better. Have to look at the design and testing closely to see which wins (if either).

I tend to look at 4-ohm and 8-ohm power ratings (the closer to doubling at 4 ohms the better), glance at frequency and distortion specs to make sure there's nothing glaringly off (rare), check the power supply specs if provided (bigger transformer VA rating and more capacitance is a plus), styling, and price. Within a rather wide price range there seems to be little to distinguish SS amplifiers IMO/IME.

Well, it's probably not going to be noticable with the Emotiva. I think I would be able to put up with ZZ Top more than the others if it was.

I read both posts about damping factor and my past understanding was that there are various factors that might influence the need for a higher damping factor. My KEF IQ70 speakers are quite reactive and seem to be hard to drive despite the 8 ohm nominal rating. The actual impedance is actually 4 ohms - 18 ohms. Since the Roger Russell link was posted by Steve1981, look at the recent Mcintosh integrated amps specs. Damping factor is 200 and the one that does have lower DF has an autoformer lol.

One more factor that is said to influence DF. When I went from 18 awg to 12 awg with my pioneer LX52 it made the sound worse and not better. The 18 gauge wire had a tighter and more open sound. This surprised me since I always thought thicker cable should be used with 4 ohms because there would be less resistance. So much for cable gauge and DF.

I have not used or heard a UMC1 I had read many complaints though when I was looking at separates. Sorry if I came off as a negative nancy I was just trying to get a grasp on who exactly this was aimed at.

Now I understand that Emo is releasing a new processor.

Sorry to have been a jerk.

There is another thread discussing the UMC-1...

Hi

Can you help me, please ?

I have a 5.1 speakers and I want to know if it´s OK an EMOTIVA UPA-500 Amp with Emotiva umc-1 ?

Thanks a lot

Mario

That would be a fantastic combo.

Have a question about the UPA-500.

I'm looking to add it to my NR818, the 5 channels would power the center, wides, and heights. (Main reason for the amp is to go from 7.1 to 9.1 since the NR818 needs an external amp. This would add heights for DTS:X)

The remaining channels (L/R and surrounds) would be powered by the receiver.

Would I notice a good improvement in sound doing it this way? My speakers are all 4 ohm so I should see 120/watts from the UPA-500 for surrounds and I'm hoping once more channels are freed up on the NR818 it'll pump more power to the channels it has to power, I think the 2 channel rating is around 135/watts?

Appreciate any feedback
Edited by BB1111 - 12/12/12 at 8:10am

You would not notice much of an improvement I don't think. The Onkyo can probably do about 100 wpc all channels driven with 4 ohms vs the 125 of the Emotiva. That's not even one db of difference volume wise. Since movies rarely if ever demand all channels performance, I'd say you wouldn't notice it.

But over time, the Onkyo might run hotter and with an amp it would probably run cooler. I'd suggest looking for an amp that can do around 125 wpc(8 ohm) to get a more noticeable improvement, if budget allows.
Edited by runnin' - 12/12/12 at 8:18am

I must be very confused.

In the picture below from the NR8181 user's manual, I count 11 sets of speaker terminals. I presume (perhaps stupidly) that there are 11 power amps inside?



The list of speaker outputs from the specifications is as follows:

Main (L, R, C, SL, SR, SBL, SBR) +
Front Wide/ZONE2 (L, R) +
Front High/ZONE3 (L, R)

That also gets me to 11 power amps.

Is there a new trend where AVR's have speaker terminals that are connected in some weird way and siamese amps or are connected to air?

The 818 can only power 7 channels.

Only 7 channels can be active at a time without an external amp:

See 3 and 4:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/80069-onkyo-tx-nr818-manual-now-available-may-23-2012-a.html

So the answer is: "Things have gotten that weird". ;-)

I can't find a service manual online to confirm or deny. I looked at the SM for the most recent comparable receiver I could find and it shed no light either way. I also looked for internal pictures. Still no joy!

The short answer is then that buying a bunch of power amp channels to replace things that are already in the AVR at the price being asked doesn't seem like a good idea. I seriously doubt that you'd hear a difference because there would be no difference to hear.

Thats what I was thinking. I'll probably just add a 2-channel amp to power the heights instead of a full 5-channel or more.

UPA-500 Vs. Onkyo TX-SR806 AVR? Would upgrading to UPA-500 paired UMC-200 be upgrade from Onkyo 806, just amplifier wise. Onkyo is rated at 130W.

No, it's a sideways move. Really, any current AVR that has pre outs will be the equal or better of those little amps, unless you have 4 ohm speakers.

I have been running a upa-500 with a Denon 3311ci which on paper has more power but to my ears the Emotiva amp adds a worthwhile increase in sound quality.