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Best/Most Popular Methods for Sub EQ?

post #1 of 54
5/16/12 at 10:54am
Thread Starter 
Hey All,

I currently have one sub in my HT, but may add a second down the road. I'm trying to investigate the best way to EQ my current sub, and whatever that method is, I'd like it to be able to separately EQ two or more subs so that I have some room to grow in the future. When I say the "best" way to EQ a sub, I'm looking for something that is reliable, relatively easy to set up, use, tweak, etc, and something that consistently gives good results to the people using whatever method it is.

I like the idea/simplicity of the Velodyne SMS-1. It allows you to manually EQ the bass curve, and displays the result of the sweeps on the screen. The downside seems to be that you can only EQ one sub, or apply one set of filters to one or more subs. Also, the GUI is outdated and there are only 8 bands that can be adjusted.

So, what other products are out there that are similar to the SMS-1? How do you guys EQ your sub(s)? If you use a bunch of different things in conjunction (aka: not a single unit like the sms-1) what makes up those systems and can you provide links to those things?

I really wish someone made a subwoofer eq that could accept up to 8 sub inputs, eq each one separately with 24 bands, and display the results on the screen!

Thanks in advance!
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post #2 of 54
5/16/12 at 10:58am
Why eq the two subs separately? Wouldn't you want to eq them together?

Also for just 2 subs any prepro or avr with audyssey xt32 does a splendid job
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post #3 of 54
5/16/12 at 11:10am
Thread Starter 
I'm no expert, but I've been told that EQing two subs separately is the better option. If the subs are placed in different parts of the room, they will sound different based on the acoustics of the room and will need to be EQed separately. I guess if two subs were co-located then they could be EQed together since they would be producing very close to the same frequency response.

Also, I'm not interested in dumping another $1000plus into a new receiver just for the audyssey. Two separate sms-1 units would be cheaper.
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post #4 of 54
5/16/12 at 11:17am
The two sub's time delays should be done separately - yes. But EQ'ing together is fully acceptable. It's the final sound to your ears that's important, not that each sub is individually producing a balanced frequency response. This is of course if you're running a mono sub signal and not stereo suds with the mains.
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post #5 of 54
5/16/12 at 11:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcisbig View Post

I'm no expert, but I've been told that EQing two subs separately is the better option. If the subs are placed in different parts of the room, they will sound different based on the acoustics of the room and will need to be EQed separately. I guess if two subs were co-located then they could be EQed together since they would be producing very close to the same frequency response.

Also, I'm not interested in dumping another $1000plus into a new receiver just for the audyssey. Two separate sms-1 units would be cheaper.

Well what happens than when both are playing together. What should be done is delays and phase should be set but they should be eqed together
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post #6 of 54
5/16/12 at 11:50am
Why does Velodyne add eq if Audyssey can do the job? Just curious.
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post #7 of 54
5/16/12 at 12:18pm
The Anti-Mode Dual Core is probably the best solution to EQ dual subs. Unfortunately, it costs about $1,200.

A number of people recommend getting a Denon receiver with Audyssey XT32 rather than spending $1,200 for the Dual Core.
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post #8 of 54
5/16/12 at 1:56pm
this topic intrigued me, so I did a little looking at Antimode. This has probably been discussed already in other threads, but it looks like the Antimode 8033 C and the 8033 S can eq either 1, 2, or 4 subs.

http://www.dspeaker.com/en/technolog...examples.shtml

(hope that link works...)

with the C model here for 395
http://www.simplifiaudio.com/online_...er_store.html#

and the S model here for 449

http://www.creativesound.ca/details....=ANTIMODE8033S


no experience with these products... yet but I suspect that will change soon.
Time for me to do more research. but from a quick look, seems like eq'ing 2 subs would work fine with either, IFthey have 0 and 180 phase selectability, AND they're equidistant from one position, as you wouldn't be able to set a time delay separately. That may be wrong, but that's what I take from the info in the first link. Like I said, I'm just looking into this myself, and there are many people here smarter and more experienced than me. If I made any glaring mistakes, I'm sure they'll chime in.
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post #9 of 54
5/16/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glashub View Post

Why does Velodyne add eq if Audyssey can do the job? Just curious.

Audyssey does a great job of flattening out the response, but leaves very little options for customization of the curve other than tweaking the sub level. Many folks prefer a house curve or perhaps custom curves for different material like music or movies. The SMS-1 allows any type of response customization as well as an easy-to-use remote to choose among the different programmed curves as well as adjustment of the sub levels. It really is a bass tweaker's delight.
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post #10 of 54
5/16/12 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

Audyssey does a great job of flattening out the response, but leaves very little options for customization of the curve other than tweaking the sub level. Many folks prefer a house curve or perhaps custom curves for different material like music or movies. The SMS-1 allows any type of response customization as well as an easy-to-use remote to choose among the different programmed curves as well as adjustment of the sub levels. It really is a bass tweaker's delight.

Thanks for the explanation, mojomike.
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post #11 of 54
5/16/12 at 4:17pm
What about using REW and a Behringer DSP-1224P? Free software, around $100 for the EQ, but you do need to spend about $100 for a mic and external soundcard/phantom power for the mic.
REW let's you creat a curve and makes filters to match to it, you can have 12 filters per channel in the 1224, and you can have multiple sets of filters that you can choose between.
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post #12 of 54
5/16/12 at 7:10pm
Thread Starter 
wlhung, does the anti-mode stuff offer a manual EQ or is it all automated? I feel like a manual EQ is/should be important for people wanting to EQ their subs so that they can go for flat/house curve/etc.

PT, I'm not familiar with using REW. Would the combination of REW and an assortment of other products produce an easy to use manual EQ solution? If so, what is a complete product list of everything you'd need to make that happen?
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post #13 of 54
5/16/12 at 7:34pm
I use the SMS-1 to eq my 4 subs and I enjoy the fact that I can set the presets to any setting I want as far as music or movies. I only use my theater for movies. The way mine is set, I only use the 2 front subs for non-action films because I don't need powerful room shaking bass for a movie such as Grand Canyon. I have the SMS-1 #2 preset eq'd to sound best with the two front subs. I power up all 4 subs when I'm watching something like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Avatar etc. Then I use pre-set # 1 which I have set up to blend all 4 subs. IMO it is the best addition to my theater I have made so far....
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post #14 of 54
5/16/12 at 8:06pm
I personally use a manual system with a Behringer DCX2496 which allows delays of all input/output channels which is useful especially if you have both near and far-field subs; meaning you don't have to compromise with phase delay. Once you do the measurements and are happy with a couple of filters to get a nice curve, you simply send the filters to the Behringer. Easy!

I use it in conjunction with REW and a calibrated mic which gives great flexibility in what you are looking to do. As PTAaron said, you can dial in a house curve within REW which I have found to my liking as it sounds much better than the standard 'flat' response (though I'm sure everyone's taste and rooms will differ).

REW w/ a calibrated mic and an external equaliser is a very easy solution to EQ multiple subs with as little or as much manual tweaking as you'd like.

Best visit hometheatreshack forums as they have sub-forums dedicated to REW.
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post #15 of 54
5/16/12 at 8:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post

I use the SMS-1 to eq my 4 subs and I enjoy the fact that I can set the presets to any setting I want as far as music or movies. I only use my theater for movies. The way mine is set, I only use the 2 front subs for non-action films because I don't need powerful room shaking bass for a movie such as Grand Canyon. I have the SMS-1 #2 preset eq'd to sound best with the two front subs. I power up all 4 subs when I'm watching something like Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, Avatar etc. Then I use pre-set # 1 which I have set up to blend all 4 subs. IMO it is the best addition to my theater I have made so far....

So you are running your subs hot for some movies and not for others? If your subs are calibrated properly, there should be no need for changing the bass for any movie.
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post #16 of 54
5/16/12 at 9:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcisbig View Post

wlhung, does the anti-mode stuff offer a manual EQ or is it all automated? I feel like a manual EQ is/should be important for people wanting to EQ their subs so that they can go for flat/house curve/etc.

PT, I'm not familiar with using REW. Would the combination of REW and an assortment of other products produce an easy to use manual EQ solution? If so, what is a complete product list of everything you'd need to make that happen?

I am a total newbie to it - but I have a Behringer DSP-1224P that I got used for $70, a Dayton EMM-6 microphone, and a ART USB Dual Pre external soundcard/preamp. Also need a XLR cable to connect the mic to the preamp, a XLR to TRS cable to calibrate the ART, and a cable to connect the ART to your AVR to run the test tones. Also a USB to MIDI cable for uploading your filters.

I've just created my first "flat" filter set just to see how it works, and it was really easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Follz20 View Post

I personally use a manual system with a Behringer DCX2496 which allows delays of all input/output channels which is useful especially if you have both near and far-field subs; meaning you don't have to compromise with phase delay. Once you do the measurements and are happy with a couple of filters to get a nice curve, you simply send the filters to the Behringer. Easy!

I use it in conjunction with REW and a calibrated mic which gives great flexibility in what you are looking to do. As PTAaron said, you can dial in a house curve within REW which I have found to my liking as it sounds much better than the standard 'flat' response (though I'm sure everyone's taste and rooms will differ).

REW w/ a calibrated mic and an external equaliser is a very easy solution to EQ multiple subs with as little or as much manual tweaking as you'd like.

Best visit hometheatreshack forums as they have sub-forums dedicated to REW.

Definitely check out hometheatershack ...
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post #17 of 54
5/16/12 at 10:59pm
and I'm even less knowledgable that PTAaron. I have none of the above. I just did a google search, and spent about 20 minutes looking. Looks like they're both (the 8033 S and C) fully automatic, with no ability to set a different, 'house' curve. The main difference I saw was mainly inputs. No experience with functionality, whatsoever.

I do have 2 identical subs, and am just beginning to look at the eq options available. Hence my interest in this thread. I'm not unhappy with what I have now, or what Audyssey (multiEq) has done so far... I'm just looking to improve what I already have without dropping 900+ on multiEQ xt 32.
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post #18 of 54
5/17/12 at 1:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

So you are running your subs hot for some movies and not for others? If your subs are calibrated properly, there should be no need for changing the bass for any movie.

That's not true. Some movies and music are mixed weak in the bass. This can often apply to older movies without LFE tracks. Some movies and music are mixed too hot. There is no reason to be a slave to the sound mixer if you don't want to.

Does the bass level sound the same for you in every movie and in all pieces of music? If it does, there's something wrong.
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post #19 of 54
5/17/12 at 5:17am
Ok, if your subs are colocated, you can EQ together... but if you are using multiples to smooth the response, then EQing seperately is the way to go. All depends on how large your LP is, if it is small then colocating would give you a little more SPL. If your LP is large, then having multiple locations may smooth the response.

I use the Balanced MiniDSP with advanced 4way plugins. Total cost was a paltry 175.00 . What a deal !

If you read my thread in my signature, you will see how multiples flattened out the response at the LP.....
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post #20 of 54
5/17/12 at 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Ok, if your subs are colocated, you can EQ together... but if you are using multiples to smooth the response, then EQing seperately is the way to go. All depends on how large your LP is, if it is small then colocating would give you a little more SPL. If your LP is large, then having multiple locations may smooth the response.

I use the Balanced MiniDSP with advanced 4way plugins. Total cost was a paltry 175.00 . What a deal !

If you read my thread in my signature, you will see how multiples flattened out the response at the LP.....

Why would you want to eq them separately.
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post #21 of 54
5/17/12 at 5:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pokekevin View Post

Why would you want to eq them separately.

Most positions offered good and bad responses, where they were positioned i had so much room gain that the response was flat from 10hz to 40hz.... Then i had trouble above that, but to get that cabin gain for free was worth keeping them where they were, and my subs are sealed, which means they have a self induced rolloff.....

So, i left them as they were and built two more to put on either side of the LP and filled in the null !!!!! Presto flat now from 10hz to 80hz as planned
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post #22 of 54
5/17/12 at 8:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Most positions offered good and bad responses, where they were positioned i had so much room gain that the response was flat from 10hz to 40hz.... Then i had trouble above that, but to get that cabin gain for free was worth keeping them where they were, and my subs are sealed, which means they have a self induced rolloff.....

So, i left them as they were and built two more to put on either side of the LP and filled in the null !!!!! Presto flat now from 10hz to 80hz as planned

What the OP is talking about is eqing each sub then looking at combined response. It would be like you boosting the 40-80hz on your front subs to get them flat, then boosting below 40hz on your flanking subs to make them flat, then using that combined response. That will cause more problems than you are fixing by boosting both subs at their weak points from design and room interaction. I also use the minidsp and really like it. KG, I am glad to see you got the flanking subs figured out so they are not holding the big boys back. Your setup is very nice.

pokekevin is correctly stating that you would eq the combined response of all the subs playing, as all subs will be playing a combined mono signal in use. This was a big improvement in the latest installment of audyssey, xt32 sub eq. It pings the subs separately to set levels (i prefer gain matching over level matching, but thats another story) and distance/delays (should check interaction, may need to change slightly for best integration with mains crossover), but then pings the overall frequency response for shaping of the combined subwoofers.
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post #23 of 54
5/17/12 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 
I'm having a hard time figuring out how the miniDSP works. Their site isn't super clear, at least to me! Does it allow manual EQing? How does it measure the frequency response?
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post #24 of 54
5/17/12 at 10:20am
As far as the together v/s seperate discussion, I use a hybrid of the two.

Its important to look at the sub responses independently as well as together to see what each sub response looks like independently. Much of the ragged responses I've seen can be flattened by taking the major peaks off the independent responses. I normally cut severe response "peaks" on each sub independently and do minor boosting(<3db) on the combined response to distribute the load of the boost on all drive units.
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post #25 of 54
5/17/12 at 11:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcisbig View Post

I'm having a hard time figuring out how the miniDSP works. Their site isn't super clear, at least to me! Does it allow manual EQing? How does it measure the frequency response?

Have i asked already what you use to measure with. The Mini is best in hand, once you get it hooked up, its so easy.... I know that is so vague...but true
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post #26 of 54
5/17/12 at 11:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mojomike View Post

That's not true. Some movies and music are mixed weak in the bass. This can often apply to older movies without LFE tracks. Some movies and music are mixed too hot. There is no reason to be a slave to the sound mixer if you don't want to.

Does the bass level sound the same for you in every movie and in all pieces of music? If it does, there's something wrong.

I don't watch movies with no LFE track. Yes I do admit, there are some movies that need small tweaking but and never more than 3 db either way. My Sub gain & Receiver are set at calibration and I don't do ony changes their. If I do adjust the bass or dialoge, I do it via iControlAV2 ap on my iPad. Any bass changes should be no more than 3 db from calibration settings.
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post #27 of 54
5/17/12 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
kg, I have an SPL meter, but no formal measuring equipment. You're saying that I would need a separate mic to use with the mini? What else would I need? Does the mini allow you to tame multiple peaks in frequency response? I guess I'd just like to know what it's capable of doing...
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post #28 of 54
5/17/12 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcisbig View Post

kg, I have an SPL meter, but no formal measuring equipment. You're saying that I would need a separate mic to use with the mini? What else would I need? Does the mini allow you to tame multiple peaks in frequency response? I guess I'd just like to know what it's capable of doing...

I gotcha... The Mini is manual equalizer. It will allow you to set input level, inverse phase, there are banks of parametric equalizers per input, with shelving filters. All slopes are adjustable In regards to hipass, lopass. I hate to say it does it all...but for me it did it all and i never even got to biquad filters !!!!!

Beauty of this beast is the adjustments are on the fly in realtime, meaning....you build a filter and gain up and down to see how the response looks on what ever tool you are using, I use OmniMic, total killer measuring tool. Hope that helps alittle
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post #29 of 54
5/17/12 at 7:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

So you are running your subs hot for some movies and not for others? If your subs are calibrated properly, there should be no need for changing the bass for any movie.

It's not the thing of running my subs hot for some films and not others. I just don't see the need to use the power of 4 subs if I'm watching Kramer vs. Kramer. I watch all types of films new and old. The older movies don't have deep bass tracks in them so it's just a thing of preference for me to use just the 2 front subs for certain movies. I enjoy the fun factor of my 4 subs blasting me with deep bass when I watch The Dark Knight. I do have my subs running 4 dbs hot when all 4 are on. With 2 running they are even with the mains.
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post #30 of 54
5/17/12 at 8:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by capricorn kid View Post


It's not the thing of running my subs hot for some films and not others. I just don't see the need to use the power of 4 subs if I'm watching Kramer vs. Kramer. I watch all types of films new and old. The older movies don't have deep bass tracks in them so it's just a thing of preference for me to use just the 2 front subs for certain movies. I enjoy the fun factor of my 4 subs blasting me with deep bass when I watch The Dark Knight. I do have my subs running 4 dbs hot when all 4 are on. With 2 running they are even with the mains.

Interesting concept you got there
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