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LCD: 60 hurts me, will 120hz do the same?

post #1 of 37
Thread Starter 
I'm one of those people who experience serious eye pain from florescent light, which include the CCFL in all HDTV and computer screens. It's the 60hz refresh rate of this technology that is killing my eyes. I already fell for the 600hz plasma thing and my eyes are still recovering.

My questions are about 120hz HDTV's: Does 120hz really mean 120hz, unlike the misleading 600hz plasma's? If so does that 120hz refresh also apply to the backlight itself?
post #2 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

I'm one of those people who experience serious eye pain from florescent light, which include the CCFL in all HDTV and computer screens. It's the 60hz refresh rate of this technology that is killing my eyes. I already fell for the 600hz plasma thing and my eyes are still recovering.

My questions are about 120hz HDTV's: Does 120hz really mean 120hz, unlike the misleading 600hz plasma's? If so does that 120hz refresh also apply to the backlight itself?

I've never heard of your problem but I'm sure you have a hard time these days if you can't take CCFL. How's that global warming treating you? Now to your question since 60 Hz is the oscillation of a AC sinewave the refresh rates on LCD/ LED are software dependent so all will have a native 60 Hz refresh rate.
post #3 of 37
Get an LCD that uses LED for backlighting.
post #4 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollTide2011 View Post

I've never heard of your problem but I'm sure you have a hard time these days if you can't take CCFL. How's that global warming treating you? Now to your question since 60 Hz is the oscillation of a AC sinewave the refresh rates on LCD/ LED are software dependent so all will have a native 60 Hz refresh rate.

Only the early TV models used the frequency of the power souce to control their native refresh rate. AFAIK all TVs use a separate oscillator chip to control their native screen refresh rate. In fact many US LCD TVs have a native refresh rate which is a multiple of a 60Hz osciallator chip such as 120Hz or 240Hz. Also note that if TVs relied on power line frequency you could not have battery powered TVs.
post #5 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratman View Post

Get an LCD that uses LED for backlighting.

Try that, and buy it local so u can return ezly.
post #6 of 37
Thread Starter 
I found out my neighbor has an older Samsung LED TV, so I checked it out. The thing killed my eyes as well - M.D.K. all the way. The specs say it runs at 60hz, so maybe that's the issue. My understanding is that all devices output a 60hz signal, so it's the TV's job to process and display it at 120hz, right? So maybe I need to try a TV with a true 120hz display, not just 60hz with with some kind of motion processing. All this manufacturer lingo is confusing. I'm trying to chose wisely here because I always feel so dirty returning items, even when there's no hassle/ no restock fee involved.
post #7 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

I always feel so dirty returning items, even when there's no hassle/ no restock fee involved.

Don't be.

These days, for the most part the salespeople are not helpful, and when you look online the information is 99.9% lacking. Even the trade magazines are not helpful as they once were, so that's why you have to come to forum like this and spend lots of your personal time (the most expensive commodity) to do research. I say vendors already saved a ton by not being helpful to begin with.
post #8 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

I'm one of those people who experience serious eye pain from florescent light, which include the CCFL in all HDTV and computer screens. It's the 60hz refresh rate of this technology that is killing my eyes. I already fell for the 600hz plasma thing and my eyes are still recovering.

My questions are about 120hz HDTV's: Does 120hz really mean 120hz, unlike the misleading 600hz plasma's? If so does that 120hz refresh also apply to the backlight itself?

Have you seen a Doctor, Ophthalmologist ? I hope its something that can be fixed. If 60 Hz (slow) bothers you , and 600 Hz (fast) also bothers you, my guess is that 120Hz is also going to bother you. Can you watch any TV at all ? Yes, 120 Hz applies to refresh rate of the back light. Can you watch LED LCD ? Dude I feel for you.

Cheers.
post #9 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

I found out my neighbor has an older Samsung LED TV, so I checked it out. The thing killed my eyes as well - M.D.K. all the way. The specs say it runs at 60hz, so maybe that's the issue. My understanding is that all devices output a 60hz signal, so it's the TV's job to process and display it at 120hz, right? So maybe I need to try a TV with a true 120hz display, not just 60hz with with some kind of motion processing. All this manufacturer lingo is confusing. I'm trying to chose wisely here because I always feel so dirty returning items, even when there's no hassle/ no restock fee involved.

Due to the sample and hold nature of all LED/LCD sets, the effective refresh rate of the display cannot exceed the framerate of the source. TV programming is 30fps and movies are 24fps.
post #10 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

I found out my neighbor has an older Samsung LED TV, so I checked it out. The thing killed my eyes as well - M.D.K. all the way. The specs say it runs at 60hz, so maybe that's the issue. My understanding is that all devices output a 60hz signal, so it's the TV's job to process and display it at 120hz, right? So maybe I need to try a TV with a true 120hz display, not just 60hz with with some kind of motion processing. All this manufacturer lingo is confusing. I'm trying to chose wisely here because I always feel so dirty returning items, even when there's no hassle/ no restock fee involved.

I think you're mixing up two concepts, the light source and the refresh rate. If your sensitivity is to CCFL, then an LED backlight would solve that problem, and so would plasma since plasma pixels create their own light from a gas and are totally different. Since all bother you, it's not the light source.

TV signals are broadcast at 60 Hz refresh or frame rate and have been for 70 years, even with old analog CRTs. (Let's not get into fields.) The 600 Hz in plasma sets refers to the fact that that the TV fires the pixels three times each 60hz frame to make things brighter. CCFL LCDs and LED LCDs run a variety of frame rates from 60 to 120 to 240 Hz, and even scan the backlight for higher effective frame rates. This is done to allow for motion smoothing.

Possibly what is bothering you too much light coming at you. Do you cringe when a mainly white screen comes on, such as in an ad? For LCD/LEDs cut Backlight to 30-50% of the maximum setting. Next, lower Contrast (Picture in Sony) which is the white level. Also, turn off Dynamic Contrast which tends to spice things up too much and has a mind of it's own.

Or you could be averse to what I call a "digital" look. Analog CRTs had a comfortable soft picture. Try watching the set in Movie or Cinema mode which generally has a softer darker look. You will get used to it. Next, lower sharpness as much as possible, since it can add a white ring around edges. Similarly, set Edge Enhancement to off. Lower Color so edges don't bleed. Finally, for 120 Hz sets and above, turn motion smoothing on to low.

If you get a good name brand, such as Samsung, LG, Sony, you will have a wide range of adjustability. Off brands may have these settings, but changing them often makes very little difference. I would recommend a 120Hz Samsung or LG LCD or LED. That would give you all the adjustability I've mentioned. (240Hz and above come into play for 3D sets.)
post #11 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by dfp View Post

Also, experts agree that sharpness should be set to zero on HDTVs since it can add a white ring around edges.

This might work for some displays like Samsungs but can actually blur the image on other sets. The zero point (no edge enhancement and no blurring) doesn't have to occur at zero on the sharpness contro; it can be anywhere from zero up to 1/3 or 1/2 of the maximum value.
post #12 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

This might work for some displays like Samsungs but can actually blur the image on other sets. The zero point (no edge enhancement and no blurring) doesn't have to occur at zero on the sharpness contro; it can be anywhere from zero up to 1/3 or 1/2 of the maximum value.

Yes, I did it by eye, lowering to 18 or some such number. Later, that's where we left it during calibration. I think the key is to just tone down these sets. Our LCD was like a lighthouse beacon out of the box. Now everyone comes over and says "Dan, your set is still the best."
post #13 of 37
LCDs come from the factory with extra bright settings which are called "Torch" or Store Demo settings ard the buyer is supposed and/or prompted to select a another mode which is preset with lower backlighting and/or brightness values. The companies due this since most buyers pick the "brightest" TV model in a store especially a store with strong ovehead lighting.
post #14 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralarcon View Post

Have you seen a Doctor, Ophthalmologist ? I hope its something that can be fixed. If 60 Hz (slow) bothers you , and 600 Hz (fast) also bothers you, my guess is that 120Hz is also going to bother you. Can you watch any TV at all ? Yes, 120 Hz applies to refresh rate of the back light. Can you watch LED LCD ? Dude I feel for you.

Cheers.


I have similar problem....
The biggest problem of all is that "Ophthalmologist" are not familiar with new technology and how they affect eyes, they arent even familiar with CRT technology (in my country)... I have similar problem i dont know if the problem is in backlighting or just anti reflective coating they put, unsharp picture, coating dispersion.. I have visited one Ophthalmologist and all i can say he didnt know about what im talking. I work as sys. admin/service and in time of CRTs i was able to recognize 50Hz flickering CRT from an "airplane" and from 1cm away.. When the LCDs first came out, i had thousands of them in front of me, and they didnt bother my eyes... When LCD became more and more cheaper they changed something and now im having hard time to buy monitor, tv, tablet.... I dont have problems with watching LG M2762 monitor,LG 1953TR monitor, JVC CRT television(100Hz) even CRT with 50Hz dont bother my eyes, Iphone4.. Tried with all sort of LCDs with CCFL/LED technology, IPS(DELL) ... I cant buy new monitor, TV it is such pain in ass for me... My head hurt, eyes go left right (strain), eyes cry watching at this new technology and ophthamologist say i have perfect vision .. Im tired of staring at monitors, TVs to see i they produce some pain to me.... One thing i hope is that with OLED technology my problems will be gone, but where to get money just for try one at home .. Do you have any recommendation for 37-42" TV with small input lag (for PS3 GT5) and mostly for SD TV program ?
post #15 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcoach View Post

I have similar problem....
The biggest problem of all is that "Ophthalmologist" are not familiar with new technology and how they affect eyes, they arent even familiar with CRT technology (in my country)... I have similar problem i dont know if the problem is in backlighting or just anti reflective coating they put, unsharp picture, coating dispersion.. I have visited one Ophthalmologist and all i can say he didnt know about what im talking. I work as sys. admin/service and in time of CRTs i was able to recognize 50Hz flickering CRT from an "airplane" and from 1cm away.. When the LCDs first came out, i had thousands of them in front of me, and they didnt bother my eyes... When LCD became more and more cheaper they changed something and now im having hard time to buy monitor, tv, tablet.... I dont have problems with watching LG M2762 monitor,LG 1953TR monitor, JVC CRT television(100Hz) even CRT with 50Hz dont bother my eyes, Iphone4.. Tried with all sort of LCDs with CCFL/LED technology, IPS(DELL) ... I cant buy new monitor, TV it is such pain in ass for me... My head hurt, eyes go left right (strain), eyes cry watching at this new technology and ophthamologist say i have perfect vision .. Im tired of staring at monitors, TVs to see i they produce some pain to me.... One thing i hope is that with OLED technology my problems will be gone, but where to get money just for try one at home .. Do you have any recommendation for 37-42" TV with small input lag (for PS3 GT5) and mostly for SD TV program ?

I see, I have a similar problem with 3d movies and TVs, my eyes water and I get a headache, however no great loss, it does not impress me. Good luck finding a suitable display (I mean it).

Cheers
post #16 of 37
Thread Starter 
Yeah, I've been to a Ophthalmologist. They didn't find anything wrong. It was like what mcoach said, they just didn't know anything about the problem. Not common enough, I guess. All white images on TV's and monitors do bother me. Though, my eyes are in recovery mode right now so all light sources hurt.

I use a Viewsonic VX2025WM for all of my media consumption. Been using it since 2006. It does bother my eyes if I use it too long, but it's the only LCD screen I can use for more than 10 minutes. Newer displays just seem to be more painful overall, especially mobile devices. Maybe something has changed in the technology or maybe I'm just too used to my own LCD monitor. Anyway, I'm just going to try and heal for now, then I'll try some of the suggestions in here.

Hey, mcoach, do you have light colored eyes? If you do I think we both might suffer from photophobia:

http://www.dukehealth.org/health_lib...ve-to-sunlight
post #17 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

Yeah, I've been to a Ophthalmologist. They didn't find anything wrong. It was like what mcoach said, they just didn't know anything about the problem. Not common enough, I guess. All white images on TV's and monitors do bother me. Though, my eyes are in recovery mode right now so all light sources hurt.

I use a Viewsonic VX2025WM for all of my media consumption. Been using it since 2006. It does bother my eyes if I use it too long, but it's the only LCD screen I can use for more than 10 minutes. Newer displays just seem to be more painful overall, especially mobile devices. Maybe something has changed in the technology or maybe I'm just too used to my own LCD monitor. Anyway, I'm just going to try and heal for now, then I'll try some of the suggestions in here.

Hey, mcoach, do you have light colored eyes? If you do I think we both might suffer from photophobia:

http://www.dukehealth.org/health_lib...ve-to-sunlight

have you tried lower backlight and/or contrast settings to make the overall image dimmer?
post #18 of 37
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

have you tried lower backlight and/or contrast settings to make the overall image dimmer?

I've tried every logical and illogical thing that could be done. I know about proper room lighting and also the balance of brightness and contrast settings - not too bright yet not too dim. I bought and returned a 600hz plasma last week. As an experiment I turned every setting down to where you could barely see anything on screen, and it would still feel like there were hot coal's dangling in front of my eyes. It was definitely the CCFL.
post #19 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

I've tried every logical and illogical thing that could be done. I know about proper room lighting and also the balance of brightness and contrast settings - not too bright yet not too dim. I bought and returned a 600hz plasma last week. As an experiment I turned every setting down to where you could barely see anything on screen, and it would still feel like there were hot coal's dangling in front of my eyes. It was definitely the CCFL.

Please go back and read my long post. First, plasma doesn't have a CCFL backlight. Each pixel is lit by its own plasma cell. Second, 600Hz plasmas are brighter than standard plasmas.

But I think your problem is the "digitalness" of the picture. In an LCD or LED, watch in Movie mode, turn down backlight, contrast, sharpness, color, motionflow, and turn off edge enhancement, noise reduction, dynamic contrast.

Re-read my long post and try my suggestion at the end. I believe Samsung still makes the LNxxD630 LCD. Take a look at it.
post #20 of 37
We've been forgetting about 1080p. The 1080p pixel is smaller than the 720p pixel, so the picture will be less grainy. Or what I call less "digital". So make sure you look for a 1080p set.

If you've been watching smaller (less than 46") and/or older displays, they might be 720p. Traditionally, 60Hz sets have been 720p. Also, I don't follow plasmas, and thought 600Hz models were all 1080p, but just saw some at Best Buy that were still 720p.

Check out my two earlier posts for other thoughts.

PS: My 91 year old father has macular degeneration and has a been enjoying a 46" Samsung LN46A630 for four years now. With settings like those I mentioned earlier.
post #21 of 37
This is a funny thread.
post #22 of 37
I think this thread makes no sense whatsoever.

First, the OP says florescent lighting is the issue but then he goes on to say he had the same issue with plasma technology that has no backlighting of any kind.
post #23 of 37
He should try bias-lighting (and sunglasses ).


Maybe these threads are of any help

backlight hurts eyes cdav4czar
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1052968

eye stain after watching... THE_DEAN_001
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1157864

LCd and Plasma and eye... motoman
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1076968

...my EYES HURT... stifa
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=853574

...my eyes hurt. samsonisfurry
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1176641

do LCd's really put less strain on the eyes? xraffle
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1109676

help! each TV irritates my eyes.. codyred
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1355735

..., best for eye strain issues GordonGekko99
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1344784

LCd monitor: eystrain,... freestonew
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1012657

would buy an LCd if it wasn't for the intense eye strain... spincut
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=922629

my matte LCd damages my eyes please help!!! john5220
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=984947

help! i'm sensitive to the light from certain Plasma's Grand Dizzy
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1213193
post #24 of 37
Or... just go back to the '50's era B&W CRT.
Still operating at 60Hz in North America and darned proud of it!
post #25 of 37
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danironimo View Post

Hey, mcoach, do you have light colored eyes? If you do I think we both might suffer from photophobia:

Nope, there goes DUkes theory... I have brown eyes ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U View Post

I think this thread makes no sense whatsoever.
First, the OP says florescent lighting is the issue but then he goes on to say he had the same issue with plasma technology that has no backlighting of any kind.

OT : Plz, dont be selfish. Try search on internet regarding eye strain. There is no explanation, no clue, no solution just questions of ppl in pain = no one seems to care. We are only small group of people for big monitor/tv market. We are not important to either health care or manufacturer, sorry for asking help. Only because of no explanation there is crossed facts like that. PPl here are not writing nonsenses, they only search for help .

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13 View Post

He should try bias-lighting (and sunglasses ).


Maybe these threads are of any help

Thx . But like with all threads on this subject there is only unanswered questions, no conclusions..


Back to topic.
I buyed Acer G245H monitor and i was able to use it for like 10mins after that my eyes were burning, my mind was blocking ideas, i couldnt even able to focust to reply on some topic .. Returned to shop ..

I buyed DELL Ultrasharp 2412HM, i was able to watch it for one hour more only if i hooked it up with VGA cable, on DVI cable it gaved me similar consequences like with G245H. Does anoynoe know whats the main difference in "picture" or monitor behaving between VGA and DVI cable ?
I also noticed that i cant watch either 22"/27"/30" monitor from DELL(IPS)..

So i have problem with CCFL, LED backlighting spiced up with LCD or IPS ?
Both of them have very aggresive coating, one matt(dell) and one glossy (Acer). Luckily i searched internet before buying monitor regarding eye strain on acer or dell = i didnt...

One more thing to make things even more complicated, Danironimo do you smoke (cigarettes) ore any of you with problems, I do ?
post #26 of 37
While this issue is very real for the poster it certainly is not an issue for the industry - hence no conclusions as to CAUSE! The Universe of those reporting this are so miniscule that it's unlikely to ever be addressed.

I managed a network with 600 LCD Monitors and dozens of LCD TV's with 250 staff and thousands of Public Users and never had a single complaint regarding this alleged event = no replication or at least reported events to attempt replication for troubleshooting with tens of thousands of the public using my network systems annually - perhaps they could tone down the screen adjustments and rare occasions someone reports it here but my last 7.5 years here the only primary numerical event reported has been with DLP RBE which impacts about 10% of viewers and now DLP is pretty much become irrelevant.

Unfortunately, it doesn't appear anyone has truly diagnosed the source as 60Hz is very unlikely as it's been around perhaps longer than he's been alive and predates any flat screen backlit tech. I would guess it's more a hypersensitivity of a select minuscule minority of viewers that need to refine the settings and carefully select what hinders their viewing the least. It'll be interesting if OLED may be of any help in the near future if the poster can afford it.

Good Luck but it's sad that your only help has been a Viewsonic LCD as I once attempted buying one for my network and it was truly horrific and it's build quality was the worst as I had to go through 3 returns to get one that worked and it took 6 weeks and then it died shortly after it's one year warranty - I prefer to call them pukesonic!

Best attempt is to go park yourself at a BB Magnolia Store an audition - or sort of make it your hobby until you arrive at a marriage or compromise you can survive - sort of like EHarmony for the Eyes as the Industry is unlikely to have any awareness of the issue as your condition is so rare that not even eye doctors likely don't either. Best of Luck!
post #27 of 37
Thread Starter 
I just got the terminologies mixed up in my head. I meant to say the problem was the 60hz refresh of the plasma. Which may not even be the problem, apparently. That got me thinking about Babylon 5, of which I've had displayed as my desktop wallpaper for the last 5 years. Changing it to an Adventures of Brisco County Jr. wallpaper didn't seem to help my eyes at all. Except for maybe to create a twinkle of nostalgia.

Edit: No, I don't smoke.
post #28 of 37
The reason that Plasma is not a problem is that since it is NOT a hold and show technology and the screen images vanishs the human mind fills in the gaps.
post #29 of 37
try a bias light experiment by putting a lamp behind the TV. Perhaps the diffusion of indirect light from behind the set will help soften the concentrated light source (the tv).
post #30 of 37
Thread Starter 
For plasma's, what does the 60hz listed in the specs refer to? I'll look into biased lighting as some have suggested.
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