AE4000 Calibration help please

The Panny 4000u should be calibrated starting in the Cinema 1 preset for best accuracy, though light output can be too low in that mode.
The 4000u's main shortcoming is that it is red deficient, despite the so called red rich lamp. Any attempt at getting high light output from it will result in the red white balance dropping severely at the bright end.

I'm by no means an expert but I own the AE4000 for ~2.5 years and had spent numerous hours to calibrate it (starting with a Spyder3 alone, and then recently purchased an i1Pro spectro to profile the Spyder3), and able to achieve very good result in Cinema 1.

Your approach seems correct; and don't worry for the large reduction of the Y level in advanced gamma adjustment to achieve a flat 2.2 gamma. Your measured display gamma depends on a lot of factors including your screen material and viewing environment (e.g. ambient light, reflective wall/ceiling, etc.)

To achieve a flat gamma of 2.2 from 10% to 90%, my 9-pt gamma adjustment in Color 1 mode (partially calibrated only because CMS is disabled in Color 1) is -10, -15, -19, -21, -21, -21, -19, -15, -12; and my 9-pt gamma adjustment in Cinema 1 mode (which was fully calibrated incl. the color gamut using its CMS) is even more drastic: -11, -15, -20, -23, -26, -26, -25, -19, -15. The up-side of this is that you can enjoy the picture with much more depth (because the default out-of-the-box gamma is just way too low - even below 2.0 in my case, making the image looks flat and washed out); but the down-side is that the image will look dimmer (but in my opinion, it does not make sense to watch a bright image but with a flat, washed out look). So in my case it's worth it.

If you used your meter to calibrate for the D65 white point and the image appears to your eyes too red, you should start to questioning the accuracy of your meter. This is my case when I used Spyder3 along - which reads red too low (so caused me adding too much red to the white balance). Profiled it with a trustable spectro such as i1Pro just clear my headache totally, and I have a reasonable profiled meter to do the gamut work with much higher accuracy. The resulting picture displayed in my calibrated Cinema 1 mode is just - only one word to describe - stunning.

The D3 does not need a dark reading.
Start with all setting at default (reset the input)
Do contrast, brightness and sharpness.
If you have a choice choose the gamma you think you want.
Do a 10 point gamma run and see how it tracks.
If it is what you expect continue, if not try a different preset gamma if there is one.
Next run a 10 point gray scale reading.
use whatever tools the projector has to correct the gray scale as much as possible.
Recheck Brightness and Contrast
rerun you gamma readings to make sure you did not alter that to much when doing gray scale.
STOP! Put every thing away.
Watch content for a week or so.
Revisit if you find things that need attention.
I specifically did not say to adjust color or tint or CMS
You need a baseline of what your display looks like with white at D65 so you know if you are helping or hindering as you move forward in your calibration.

I am also doing a full D65 CAL on an AE4000 I recently purchased and let me just say while the level of control and features on this unit is fantastic the calibration is a royal pain in the arse (more severe interactions than any other display I have done). I have already gone through it three times and discovered what Chad mentioned above while attempting a Dynamic mode CAL (also could not correct Green better than dE 3 in Dynamic).

My 9 point Cinema 1 gamma is similar to what dominickwok posted above only slightly less movement on the numbers.

Does anyone know if the AE4000 can handle 2.4 Gamma without any issues, was considering trying it?

Jason

If I recall, the Panny's never calibrated that well in dynamic mode, the Epsons are better at that. Most LCD projectors are a major pain to calibrate regardless, they are more sensitive and it is also very easy to lose all the native on/off just by changing a few settings. I would probably not use a flat gamma unless you are forced to, 2.4 flat is too "murky dark" anyways on a projector at this level of native on/off. Even on my JVC I prefer a non-flat gamma that averages around 2.3, as 2.4 is too extreme dark to me in the lower IRE's.

I would probably shoot for 2.2 to 2.25 average, start at 2.0 or 2.1 at 5 IRE and slowly bump up linearly towards 20-25 IRE up to about 2.25 to maybe 2.3, stick to 2.2 to 2.3 to about 70 IRE, then do another bump up if needed past 70 IRE to 2.3 to 2.4 if you wish (staying flat is fine as well). Just whatever looks best, but 2.4 FLAT overall is too extreme (especially in the lower IRE's), as scenes will not have enough shadow detail.

Those are generalities, it may look better to stay at 2.2 between 25-70 IRE anyways or even lower, just depends on how the overall calibration comes out sometimes (IMHO).

Well all of the displays in my house, except one, are at 2.4 so it has grown on me. Other than a brief trial on the Epson 3010 this is the only LCD projector I have owned so still adjusting to the over-all image and trying to make it look more DLP'ish (hehe). Once I get the AE4000 nailed down (quirks/shortcomings/etc) I'll run through a 2.4 Gamma and see how it comes out, motivated by curiosity.

Jason

Whatever looks best to a particular individual is what I agree someone should use, although many calibrators would tell you not to do a flat gamma if you can help it.

I used to do flat gammas as it was easier, but eventually I did the bumpy gamma and I think it is better if you have the patience to do it.

Sure an S-curve can give you more, used an averaged 2.4 S on the Sharp 12k mkII (looked amazing), but it's not technically 'accurate'. Although now it seems hollywood is going to 2.4 vs 2.2 so it's all a preference anyway, at least within each displays capabilities.

Jason

I just personally experienced that with a flat gamma measured on the JVC at 2.4, there were certain scenes in some movies that I could not take, and I have about 50,000:1 native on/off with no IRIS to mess it up. I had the brightness/contrast/black level controls set correctly, as noted by many in the forums. Most others (many even with RS-55's that can do 80,000:1 on/off) thought that a flat 2.4 is too dark as well.

I can name one, in Thor when he starts the fighting on the frost troll planet, it was actually hard for me to see any detail at all (almost unwatchable) at 2.4 gamma below 20 IRE. There were others as well.

Changing the 9-pt gamma setting shouldn't have any impact on your black level (Brightness) setting - but of course it's worth to just do a quick check. But if you adjust your Brightness again, your gamma tracking will be likely changed.

For setting contrast, besides you want to achieve the Y value of 11 ftL at 100%, please also watch out for setting it to high so that the red color starts to running out - which will cause a blue tint on your 100% white as well as a drastic drop of your gamma at 90%.

I followed the Stereomandan method and his spreadsheet to calibrate the AE4000's Cinema 1 color gamut with the 75% saturation patterns, and achieved a very good linearity tracking of color brightness level from 0% to 75% saturation levels (for all primiaries and secondaries).

Even tiny changes in gamma can be noticeable. You should just copy your calibration to multiple presets, then play with different gammas. The gamma preference partly depends on the room conditions and the user's preference as well. For me anyhow, I much prefer the curved gamma on a projector over the flat because of problems with shadow detail in dark scenes and blowout lighting in bright scenes. Bumping to 2.3 or 2.4 above 70 IRE reduces the bright scene contrast blowout issue.

Flat gammas work better on good TV's than they do on projectors, because a good TV will have MUCH higher intrascene contrast, so it isn't as big of a problem. Projectors struggle in two conditions, one is dark scene contrast and the other is when the scene gets too bright in an uneven manner (think bright light coming through a cafe window in the morning), that's why the curve method works better on a projector (IMHO as always).

I obtained a gamma of 2.2 in Cinema 1 and the range is 2.19 to 2.22 with no ill effects. Grayscale came out under dE 1 other than 10 (dE 1.4), 90 (dE 1.6), 100 (dE 2.4). My brightness setting remained the same.

Don't bother attempting a gamma calibration in Dynamic mode, creates a mess with the factory pre-set. Odd thing was when I combined my CMS calibration from Cinema 1 with Dynamic mode it actually worked really well so I saved a "Dynamic Cinema" mode (hehe).

Still have to do grayscale/basics on Color 1 and compare to full CAL Cinema 1.

I tested a 2.4 in cinema 1 at the low end and it is too dark, my AE4000 cannot handle it with 1620 hours on the lamp in my dark walled/light controlled room.

Jason

Looks pretty good, but I'd let your eyes over time be the final judge, and you may want a sharper curve on the lower end 2.0 to 2.25 (up to you though). As we noted before, there is no perfect magic gamma, it just depends, you'll have to eye it out over time across multiple content. If I were calibrating someone elses projector on a limited time-frame, I probably would just do exactly what you did or close to it, because I don't have time to go over it by eye.

I sometimes also change the gamma for some movies, because they were mastered screwy for some reason (there aren't that many but some).

I'm going to keep an eye on this thread as I'm wondering how much the black level improves after calibration. The blacks on my 4000 seems to be a bit crushed/washed out at the moment and was wondering/hoping a good calibration would fix that... everything else about the PJ such as bright scenes are fantastic

On the same topic, are the blacks on the 4000 usually a bit washed out from the factory anyway?

I'm another person who has been attempting to calibrate this projector. I am currently using a ColorMunki Display, and it's my understanding that they are virtually identical to the i1 Display Pro, hardware-wise. I have the probe on a tripod about 18" from my screen (an AT 110" Vutec, about 0.9 gain, I believe), pointing somewhat "up" towards the middle, so it's shadow does not fall on the test image. The PJ is ceiling-mounted about 12' from the screen, in a light-controlled room. (I'm realizing that between a negative-gain screen that pushes the size limit for the PJ and a relatively long throw distance, I will likely never get an adequately bright screen in any of the Cinema or Color modes. I'm strongly considering re-mounting the PJ at its closest limit for zoom/offset without having to resort to keystone adjustment, if that would give me a few more lumens.)

I'm having a similar experience to jeansibelius24, in that I had to adjust the primaries' contrast/brightness in a likewise way to get HCFR to report proper balance in the "RGB levels" graph, but the middle greyscale still has a pinkish look. I decided that this is due to the individual gammas of the primaries being out of balance, and I had some success getting rid of the redness by viewing the gamma graph's indiv. colors and going into the PJ's advanced gamma adjustment mode and tweaking the indiv. primaries along its 9-point graphs. For me, this approach had its trade-offs, though. Going too far in tweaking the gammas had the effect of throwing RGB back out of balance, and would create narrow bands of color imbalance in the greyscale ramp. (Note that I tried this approach for Dynamic, Normal, Cinema 1 and Color 1.) I also went into the PJ's CMS menu and had some limited success matching its gamut to 709, but had some problems with green.

I decided not to insist on D65 due to the red issues with this lamp, and tried using D75 as a reference instead. I had better luck going through the "greyscale for dummies" process this way, but found it was still impossible (for me at least) to overcome the red-poor issues of the PJ unless I was using Cinema 1.

Although Cinema 1 was easiest to get close to D65 with fewer gamma problems, it was still just too dim for me. My compromise approach at this point was to use Normal, set main contrast to ~18 ft./L, and set brightness so Y of 10 IRE was 10% of IRE 100. Next I adjusted RGB to D75 for IRE 80 and 30, then looked at the slider contrast levels needed to do this and intentionally cut them in half. (Although this goofs up RGB, I knew this would make setting the gammas for the indiv colors easier without getting strange bands of color bias in the greyscale ramp. This projector seems to be all about compromises.) Last, I measured the primaries/secondaries and played with the CMS until I got as close to the primary reference points as possible (still trouble with green), and tweaked the secondaries so their dashed lines intersected as close as I could make them to my greyscale dot cluster.

(I have no idea if this was a better way to approach calibrating this PJ, I'm just kind of throwing darts.)

I have calibrated a few without too much hassle, and done my best with several others with plenty of hassle. The difference is it goes well and accurately if the owner has it projecting onto a small and/or high gain (Silverstar/High Power) screen. Then there is enough light output to work with and Cinema1 calibration goes well.
On the other hand, when the customer has it projecting on a screen that is too large and/or negative gain, there's almost no hope of getting a cal that both looks and measures well. I had to make compromises like calibrating to D7500, accepting large red dropoff at the high end, etc. Still looked much better in the end, so it was worth doing, but it's difficult for me to accept as a calibrator.

Thank you Chad,

Do you have any advice as to the order of the cal steps I should take, compromises I can make (and ones I shouldn't), and what the elements of the PJ's output (luminance vs. greyscale vs. gamma etc.) are in degree of importance? (i.e. some settings may not be worth fussing over vs. others). Note that "Normal" or "Dynamic" are really my only viable choices at this point, so with you as a professional calibrator, I understand you may have to "hold your nose" in offering suggestions. TIA!

I don't want to do this from memory. I think I have one on the schedule for later this month; I'll see what I can do about taking notes to share.

I owned this projector for two and a half years and used >100 hours to play around its calibration controls (counted from absolutely zero experience on using meter + software for DIY calibration). Based on my experience:

- Large changes on the 9-pt gamma control will have a significant impact on your grayscale
- Moderate changes on the primaries using its CMS (in RGBCMY mode) will have a noticeable (or measurable) impact on your grayscale
- Changing your grayscale (RGB Contrast / Brightness) will have a measurable impact on your secondaries

Therefore, my advice is:
- If you're going to do the CMS work, you better adjust your primaries first before you adjust the grayscale (I'm using the 75% saturation method for both primaries and secondaries http://www.avsforum.com/t/1134710/epson-calibration-guide-1080-1080ub-6100-6500ub-7500ub#post_16166537)
- If you're going to use the 9-pt gamma adjustment, you better do it first before you adjust the grayscale
- After you adjust the primaries, gamma and grayscale, then you adjust the secondaries in the CMS
- Repeat the adjustments iteratively to narrow down the changes in each iteration and finally conclude it when you're satisfied with your dE's

For the RGB Contrast / Brightness settings, I think you're fine as long as the meter (assuming reasonably accurate, e.g. spectro or spectro-profiled colorimeter) tells you the grayscale is reasonably flat with acceptable dE's. In my case (using Cinema 1), I set the main "Colour Temp" control (i.e. the one in the main top menu) to -3, thus reducing the blue overall across the range before adjust ingmy grayscale, and finally set the Contrast R/G/B to +4 / 0 / 0 and Brightness R/G/B to +2 / 0 / +2.