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Should I build or buy - Page 2

post #31 of 68
If you want to save money, buying a newer desktop pc from places like Dell Outlet is very cheap. A lot of Dell pc's are in fact very quiet and perfectly fine for HTPC use. And all modern pc's come with cpu/gpu that's fast enough, hdmi and digital audio so there's no hardware issues. They all come with support for peace of mind and will work out of the box.

The software setup doesn't have to be hard either. If you don't want live tv, then XBMC/Mediabrowser are both very easy to install and use, with plenty of guides here. Even if you buy a custom HTPC, you will need to deal with these issues as the software updates very frequently, so you better learn how to do it.

There are also custom HTPC's (e.g. http://www.asrock.com/nettop/index.asp) but they will be more expensive thatn building your own.
post #32 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyen78 View Post

Just built my first pc. Followed instructions on the internet and it worked out well. Followed assasin's guide to setup the bios, windows, and wmc and xbmc. The build was pretty easy but yeah, getting everything to work software-wise can be a pain.

You won't save much...if any, money building your own unless you have a lot of spare parts you can use. You will end up with a system that uses higher quality components, I don't know if this impacts the speed or usability but it'll probably impact the reliability.

If you have the cash available, and considering how much work you're going to be putting in on the house and the new arrival to your family (congrats by the way) it might be easier to just buy a prebuilt pc geared towards htpc duties, with all the software loaded and configured.

Also, if you want to build your own, I would recommend using a normal pc case over a htpc case. I actually got a normal case cause my laptop died so I needed a PC for normal pc use and for HTPC. You will have much more room to work with in a normal pc which I thought was really helpful on my first build.

Yes, but people get a HTPC style case so it will blend in with your receiver, cable box, etc.
post #33 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkro View Post

Yes, but people get a HTPC style case so it will blend in with your receiver, cable box, etc.

Agreed. Obviously building in a tower is easier but then its more of a PC than a HTPC.

And my wife would never allow that in the AV rack anyway.
post #34 of 68
http://www.asrock.com/nettop/overvie...Sandy%20Bridge)

This is probably one of the best production HTPC's, but its not cheap.
post #35 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

I often think when people say that building will be cheaper they are thinking from the perspective of already owning a copy of Win 7, hard drives, optical drives, a tuner, remote, possibly a case, fans, etc.

I can't remember a user saying they could build an adequately powerful pc under $XXX.xx and it included cable tuners or a satellite capture device. They also tend to leave out software you will likely want, such as TMT5, PowerDVD, DVD Fab, and AnyDVD.

A number of well known companies (HP, Acer, etc) are selling G620 Sandy Bridge based desktop pcs in the $320-$350, which is probably cheaper than you could buy Windows and all the components for. Even adding a Hauppauge dual usb cablecard tuner and replacing the DVD drive with a bluray one would keep it around $500.

But you need to ask yourself - are you ok with the case? Will you have room to grow in terms of drive bays and pci slots? Is the power supply adequate? Will the fans be quiet enough for you? Does the NIC support WOL/gigabit speeds?

It could work out great for you, but these are the kinds of problems that make setting up an htpc problematic.

The $350 HP or Acer will have the most POS least expensive components they can get their hands on. One could always build an equially POS PC for less, including the $33 one would pay for a Windows 7 lisence (buy a family 3 pack for $99 and either use all 3, or share with friends). For comparison, HP and Dell pay about $7 per Windows license.

When you are building an HTPC, you want to use better components than the ones that barely passed QC, and are held together with the proverbial rubber bands and spit.

I have repaired a number of $300 desktops that people thought they were "getting a deal on" black friday or what not. The most common themes is the low quality components, mainly motherboard and PSU that are only meants for intermittent use.

For a simple single TV DVR, one could get a MoBo with onboard graphics and low power CPU like Atom or Hudson for under $100, and it will still be better quality than the one used in $300 Acer. Add RAM $20, Add 500 Gb+ HDD $50, Add Windows $33, Case with a PSU $40 and you are under $250 with a decent DVR box in a case that you will like.

You still have to add tuners to either the store bought PC or the home made one, so I took those out of the equation.
post #36 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post

The $350 HP or Acer will have the most POS least expensive components they can get their hands on. One could always build an equially POS PC for less, including the $33 one would pay for a Windows 7 lisence (buy a family 3 pack for $99 and either use all 3, or share with friends). For comparison, HP and Dell pay about $7 per Windows license.

When you are building an HTPC, you want to use better components than the ones that barely passed QC, and are held together with the proverbial rubber bands and spit.

I have repaired a number of $300 desktops that people thought they were "getting a deal on" black friday or what not. The most common themes is the low quality components, mainly motherboard and PSU that are only meants for intermittent use.

For a simple single TV DVR, one could get a MoBo with onboard graphics and low power CPU like Atom or Hudson for under $100, and it will still be better quality than the one used in $300 Acer. Add RAM $20, Add 500 Gb+ HDD $50, Add Windows $33, Case with a PSU $40 and you are under $250 with a decent DVR box in a case that you will like.

You still have to add tuners to either the store bought PC or the home made one, so I took those out of the equation.

I build my own PCs but this comment is nonsense. Just about everyone I know buys their PC from Dell, HP et al. and very rarely have hardware issues. They are much more likely to have software problems like viruses, RAM shortage caused by too many running programs etc.

Big companies don't like having to service faulty parts under warranty! A more likely hardware problem is OEMs using custom versions of vendor motherboards that have limited free expansion slots or extra SATA ports.

I don't have data to back it up but my guess is custom, home built PCs would have a higher failure rate due to poor assembly (incorrectly applied thermal paste, underpowered PSU, poor case airflow).
post #37 of 68
I wasn't really recommending buying the cheapest desktop you can find and using it as your every day DVR. I laid out a few reasons why it would be problematic and Assassin added some more. It definitely could work out depending on your expectations (performance, expansion, aesthetics) but I would keep those on the lower end.
post #38 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljo000 View Post

I build my own PCs but this comment is nonsense. Just about everyone I know buys their PC from Dell, HP et al. and very rarely have hardware issues. They are much more likely to have software problems like viruses, RAM shortage caused by too many running programs etc.

Big companies don't like having to service faulty parts under warranty! A more likely hardware problem is OEMs using custom versions of vendor motherboards that have limited free expansion slots or extra SATA ports.

I don't have data to back it up but my guess is custom, home built PCs would have a higher failure rate due to poor assembly (incorrectly applied thermal paste, underpowered PSU, poor case airflow).

Your argument is just a ridiculous and baseless as his then.
post #39 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljo000 View Post

I build my own PCs but this comment is nonsense. Just about everyone I know buys their PC from Dell, HP et al. and very rarely have hardware issues. They are much more likely to have software problems like viruses, RAM shortage caused by too many running programs etc.

Big companies don't like having to service faulty parts under warranty! A more likely hardware problem is OEMs using custom versions of vendor motherboards that have limited free expansion slots or extra SATA ports.

I don't have data to back it up but my guess is custom, home built PCs would have a higher failure rate due to poor assembly (incorrectly applied thermal paste, underpowered PSU, poor case airflow).

If those PC's were under warranty, I wouldn't have had to fix them then, would I?

As you have said, would someone who has aseembled a purpose built PC load it with minimum required memory? I hope not. So, even using your own statement, a store bought PC will be short on something, as opposed to custom built one at same or lower cost.

I have recently repaired an HP for a friend, that has already been "repaired" under warranty earlier. When I opened it up, I saw that they replaced the faulty hard drive with a recertified one, but no where in the paperwork did it say it was repaired with a recertified part.

Plus, the case design, and the location of the hard drive was just asking for the hard drive to cook it self if the PC is on for any prolonged period of time. So, HP, to save $1 on the freaking fan, had to replace the hard drive, which they probably made Seagate eat the cost, and replaced it with recertified drive.

I put a new hard drive and added a fan to the front of the case, which already had provisions for the fan, to blow directly onto the drive to keep it cool. A simple $3 fan will prolong the life of the harddrive much longer than the PC will be useful.

I have repaired a number of big brand name PC's with faulty moterboards that had leaking caps, because manufacturers saved a $1 per mobo by using aluminum foil caps instead of tantalum solid caps.

I always tell people; "there is no free lunch", and "you get what you paid for"
post #40 of 68
Big PC companies build specs to put on paper.

They get to those specs in the cheapest route possible which improves their bottom line.

I also have repaired and upgraded numerous Big PC companies' builds. The quality just isn't there.

Not to mention the other dozen reasons already listed. It just makes sense to build your own or hire someone that knows what they are doing and uses quality parts.
post #41 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljo000 View Post

I build my own PCs but this comment is nonsense. Just about everyone I know buys their PC from Dell, HP et al. and very rarely have hardware issues. They are much more likely to have software problems like viruses, RAM shortage caused by too many running programs etc.

Big companies don't like having to service faulty parts under warranty! A more likely hardware problem is OEMs using custom versions of vendor motherboards that have limited free expansion slots or extra SATA ports.

I don't have data to back it up but my guess is custom, home built PCs would have a higher failure rate due to poor assembly (incorrectly applied thermal paste, underpowered PSU, poor case airflow).

It's not entirely nonsense. I've bought both HPs and Dells and in particular I've had PSU failures multiple times. Indeed, they use those $15 PSUs that we constantly tell people here not to use in their builds. I'm also prematurely replacing a Q9400 Dell system because the motherboard is failing, starting with the USB ports. Yeah, for general purpose pcs, they are often cheaper, but you get what you pay for, and they do use components I would never consider buying for a build. (And I'm generally spending $700-1200 for those Dells and HPs; I'm not even buying the $350 cheapos.)

Plus, they usually have noisy fans, and are in cases that are simply not suitable for most people's HTPC needs. As far as I know you can't buy one with an SSD for the OS. In particular your comment about underpowered PSUs is completely backward, although the problem of too small a PSU is far less severe in this day of dramatically lower power cpus and highly integrated motherboards including graphics, NIC, sound, etc. Most people buying HPs and Dells today will never install a single expansion card so they will never run into the problem of having insufficient power from that cheapo 300w Delta power supply, but historically that was a huge problem. And for someone today wanting to install tuners or additional disks, or capture cards or the like in an HTPC, it can still be a problem.

By the way, those companies make huge profits from selling high priced longer term warranties because what they include as the basic warranty is pretty limited these days.
post #42 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsoccer33 View Post

I often think when people say that building will be cheaper they are thinking from the perspective of already owning a copy of Win 7, hard drives, optical drives, a tuner, remote, possibly a case, fans, etc.

Or they are using Linux instead of Windows. Or they don't need a optical drive. Or the case they select includes a fan or doesn't need an additional one.

Quote:


I can't remember a user saying they could build an adequately powerful pc under $XXX.xx and it included cable tuners or a satellite capture device. They also tend to leave out software you will likely want, such as TMT5, PowerDVD, DVD Fab, and AnyDVD.

Build vs. buy, you still are most likely going to need to buy a tuner. I don't think I've seen a major PC manufacturer (Dell, HP, Gateway, etc) include a Ceton or HDHomeRun HD or Prime with their PCs. Same way with all the software you mentioned. Besides, that software is not necessary for most HTPC I'd venture. I have 2 HTPCs plus 3 laptops that can double as a HTPC and none of them have that software.

Quote:


A number of well known companies (HP, Acer, etc) are selling G620 Sandy Bridge based desktop pcs in the $320-$350, which is probably cheaper than you could buy Windows and all the components for. Even adding a Hauppauge dual usb cablecard tuner and replacing the DVD drive with a bluray one would keep it around $500.

Here is a solid basic system with everything that you NEED that those same $320-350 (trading a larger HDD for a 120GB SDD) but doesn't include Windows . Windows 7 will run you less than $100. Even paying the full hundred, switching to a 500GB HDD you'd be at about the same price.

Quote:


But you need to ask yourself - are you ok with the case? Will you have room to grow in terms of drive bays and pci slots? Is the power supply adequate? Will the fans be quiet enough for you? Does the NIC support WOL/gigabit speeds?

It could work out great for you, but these are the kinds of problems that make setting up an htpc problematic.

These are all questions that apply whether you buy prebuilt or build your own.
post #43 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Your argument is just a ridiculous and baseless as his then.

Hardly. I at least said I was guessing based on anecdotal experience and logic, not making a positive assertion.
post #44 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljo000 View Post

Hardly. I at least said I was guessing based on anecdotal experience and logic, not making a positive assertion.

And others have done the exact same thing with the counter argument which you were quick to dismiss as "nonsense".
post #45 of 68
I was specifically responding to this quote:

Quote:


When you are building an HTPC, you want to use better components than the ones that barely passed QC, and are held together with the proverbial rubber bands and spit.

I'm not arguing that custom builds aren't superior if assembled carefully and correctly. I'm merely pointing out that huge PC makers didn't get where they are making faulty pieces of junk. Unfortunately you sometimes get a lemon but thats true of buying components too. I think custom building is better for cost, expandability and you get exactly what you want. However, if a pre-build system meets all your needs then it could be a perfectly good purchase.
post #46 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljo000 View Post

I was specifically responding to this quote:



I'm not arguing that custom builds aren't superior if assembled carefully and correctly. I'm merely pointing out that huge PC makers didn't get where they are making faulty pieces of junk. Unfortunately you sometimes get a lemon but thats true of buying components too. I think custom building is better for cost, expandability and you get exactly what you want. However, if a pre-build system meets all your needs then it could be a perfectly good purchase.

What a pointless argument this is. And it comes up about once a month here at AVS.

For those of you who are looking to buy a Kia then buy a Kia. While it "could be a perfectly good purchase" I prefer to buy something that has better components and more likely to last longer for just a little more money.

Having seen and upgraded Dells, HPs, Gateways, etc I know exactly they kind of quality that goes into them.

I will leave those for the Kia buyers of the world.

And PC makers absolutely DO get to where they are today by manufacturing pieces of junk. That's why they are where they are now because schools, the government, universities, etc buy them because its easy to do (see the "less stressful" comment I referenced earlier). Its against their best interest to make a PC with the best quality parts when they are on contracts to upgrade these machines every few years. The best way to increase margin is to take a machine with certain "specs" and use as cheap as parts as possible to reach those "specs".

Its not rocket science here. Its simple economics.
post #47 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljo000 View Post

I was specifically responding to this quote:



I'm not arguing that custom builds aren't superior if assembled carefully and correctly. I'm merely pointing out that huge PC makers didn't get where they are making faulty pieces of junk. Unfortunately you sometimes get a lemon but thats true of buying components too. I think custom building is better for cost, expandability and you get exactly what you want. However, if a pre-build system meets all your needs then it could be a perfectly good purchase.

I think that assumption is incorrect. PCs have for quite a few years been nothing but a commodity. They don't compete on the basis of quality, they compete entirely on the basis of price, and the components that go into them are entirely based on what is the cheapest in a lot of 100,000.

Their reliability is based entirely on the reality that most parts don't fail, and does not result from any special effort to include higher quality parts. And while they are using the very same CPUs and hard disks as the rest of us would use, and most SDRAM these days simply works, they save a lot by buying cheap PSUs and motherboards. But really, with all the integration in today's motherboards, that's the entire system - case, psu, mobo, cpu, ram, hard disk. Out of those 6 components, what's the most likely fail? Hard disk psu, and motherboard. Not the case, not the ram, not the cpu. So you get the same hard disk risk whether pre- or self-built. And they cut corners on the other two highest risk components. I've bought pre-builts, but I would never use the motherboards or psus they use in a system that I built. Heck, I paid $80 for the 400w PSU in my htpc. Obviously there is not an $80 PSU in a $350 Dell.
post #48 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkside View Post

Chomps,
Networking is the future, so just make sure you have cat6 pre-wired to all the rooms including kitchen. Current wifi technology can't stream 1080p smoothly.

Thnaks for the advice. I will probably be running CAT6 cable for the Lync whole house audio system.
post #49 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hettar987 View Post

Honestly, if you're not in to learn about the "making of" an HTPC and have the money to buy an Assassin HTPC, just do that. You might save a couple hundred bucks doing it yourself, but possibly for half the result and twice the frustation, especially with everything you've got going on.

Im into the learning piece just want to make sure I can handle it with the other things I got going on.
post #50 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

Wow !! What a lot of god posts that are defiantly helping give the op both sides of the coin . That's why I love this forum

@the o.p.

I see very little value or cost savings in anything off the shelf purchased . Several folks have mentioned that store bought is cheaper . That may be true for about the first thirty minutes of ownership . After that you will quickly see that they are not cheaper at all. Not every aspect of a purchase can be weighed in a pure dollar thought process .

1) What motherboard is in that computer ? No name crap that is only designed to last through the warranty period , if that . The same holds true for ramm , psu and most hard drives . Try to get online help with those parts and see where you end up.

2) Better get an extended warranty . That equals more money .

3) Support ? Really ? From who . Anyone who seeks support from an off the shelf vendor quickly wishes he / she had not even picked up the phone about 10 seconds after the call is placed . If you ever get off "hold" . Time is money . You just spent more of it .

4) BLOAT WARE !! My god ,they are so full of it you will spend hours trying to rid your self of it and most likely never will get all of it off . Best thing to do is buy a copy of your own windows and start over . MORE money .

There are tons of web sites that will show you how to build a computer very quickly . You said you have read through Assassin's guides so the part selection teamed up with your expactations is already done for you . Purchase the paid section of the guides and the software side is done also . You will also get a ton of help from what I consider one of the best forums on the subject at hand .

Lastly : If you feel you do not have the time and are just not up to it then why don't you have Assassin build you a custom unit or one of his quality pre builts to suite your needs and get REAL quality for pennies more up front and huge dollar savings in the end !

Sorry for the wall of words .

Good luck and post back

Some good call outs. Thanks! Really good info from this forum. I was thinking of going with a custom Assassin setup that way I can get what I want and know that it's going to work when I fire it up.
post #51 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by blueiedgod View Post

I would normally say build your own. But, if your wife is due a month from now, assuming this is your first child. You won't have time not so much to play with the system, not even to watch TV. Between the feedings and changings at night and assuming you are still going to work in the morning.... you may have to wait for a while, until the baby is a little more independant to play with this.

So, like others have said, have the builder put the cables in the walls. Don't forget the good old coax, as well, in case you decide later not to go with a home made IPTV set up, then a cable company can just connect their stuff to your existing coax network, instead of running new cables.

If you lay cables now, you will have time to build your HTPC in the next few years, and then learn how to set it up and play with it, and then expand it to the whole house coverage.

Our system went from HTPC with a single tuner at a tube TV in 1998, to a whole house system with 5 flat panel HD TV's all interconnected through media center extenders on the home network and one main HTPC with 8 tuners and quad core CPU with a 12 Tb RAID 5 library of movies, music, pictures, videos, and TV content.

It just takes time to get big. Don't just go big from the get go, you will get your self into a lot of expensive problems.

Take baby steps, something you will learn very soon. :-) Congrats.

I think it will build into something like this down the road. Interested in all of this stuff just at a time crunch at this point. I'll start getting my feet wet and see where it takes me as I learn.

Lots to learn from this forum.
post #52 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wyen78 View Post

Just built my first pc. Followed instructions on the internet and it worked out well. Followed assasin's guide to setup the bios, windows, and wmc and xbmc. The build was pretty easy but yeah, getting everything to work software-wise can be a pain.

You won't save much...if any, money building your own unless you have a lot of spare parts you can use. You will end up with a system that uses higher quality components, I don't know if this impacts the speed or usability but it'll probably impact the reliability.

If you have the cash available, and considering how much work you're going to be putting in on the house and the new arrival to your family (congrats by the way) it might be easier to just buy a prebuilt pc geared towards htpc duties, with all the software loaded and configured.

Also, if you want to build your own, I would recommend using a normal pc case over a htpc case. I actually got a normal case cause my laptop died so I needed a PC for normal pc use and for HTPC. You will have much more room to work with in a normal pc which I thought was really helpful on my first build.

Good call outs. That could be my best choice after we get moved in etc... is to upgrade my home computer to get used to building and messing with computers that way if I have to troubleshoot and spend time configuring it's not going to affect much other then I can't use the computer in my office.
post #53 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kesawi View Post

Regardless of which path you go down you will forever be tinkering with the software side of your HTPC. Driver and software updates always inevitably cause issues or minor changes that need to be fixed. You'll come across a new or different way of doing things that someone has posted on this or other forums. The benefit to building the HTPC yourself, including the software, is that you'll have a better idea of where to look when troubleshooting. Following Assassin's guides I had it useable for the family in around two days. It didn't do everything that I wanted it to, but over the course of the following two months I've been adding on and tweaking to get the full suite of features I'm after, and it runs pretty well now. I think the mistake most people make when building a system is they try to get everything working from the start, and end up taking a shotgun approach. If you do go down the self-build path then create a list of software features and functions, prioritise them and then work through in that order getting each one working right before moving onto the next step.

As for pre-wiring there is some great information in the following forums on this site:

Dedicated Theater Design & Construction
General Home Theater & Media/Game Rooms
Home A/V Distribution

Don't forget that prewiring isn't just about what you plan to do now, but what you may need in ten years time. Even if you don't think you'll need it, prewire for a security system, speakers, video surveillance, cable, satellite, network, IR remotes, projector, etc. You don't need to have the cables terminated, just in the wall.

Good stuff. Thanks!
post #54 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Agreed. Obviously building in a tower is easier but then its more of a PC than a HTPC.

And my wife would never allow that in the AV rack anyway.

Tower + Wife =
post #55 of 68
I'm mostly a lurker here, but here's my two cents.

Buy an Assassin PC.
  • Between building a house (and Cat6 is a no brainer...do it while it's easy) and a new baby, your free time will be better spent using your HTPC than fooling around with hardware and software.
  • The price is very reasonable for what you get. I personally think it would be difficult to do a first time HTPC build for that price with that quality.
  • You get direct personal support from the maker of your HTPC. I see Assassin on the forums helping people daily, whether they are his customers or not. And he knows what he is talking about. (Even if he is less active on the forums after the 3rd, I'm sure his company will be giving his customers great support)
  • You WILL build more later when you have the time. This hobby is addictive, and soon you will be building a bedroom HTPC or a media server. This is not going to be your only chance to build. Why not start with a solid machine and a good HTPC experience to wet your appetite and play around with what HTPC can do?

If my wife was going to have a baby, I know where she'd want me to spend my time. Anyways, just my contribution to your situation. Good luck and congratulations!
post #56 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

Yeah you have been recommending that people buy junk for at least 10 months.

That's your opinion. There are lots of happy customers who do not need to modify their BIOS. In fact, what is BIOS on a Mac? PC should just works.

Besides, you are building PCs for sale. You opinion is equally biased as brand name box builders.
post #57 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

That's your opinion. There are lots of happy customers who do not need to modify their BIOS. In fact, what is BIOS on a Mac? PC should just works.

Besides, you are building PCs for sale. You opinion is equally biased as brand name box builders.

I recommend to people constantly to build their own. In fact, I have a whole hardware guide devoted to it. Like it or not there are definite downsides to buying mass produced junk.
post #58 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelation View Post

That's your opinion. There are lots of happy customers who do not need to modify their BIOS. In fact, what is BIOS on a Mac? PC should just works.

Besides, you are building PCs for sale. You opinion is equally biased as brand name box builders.


Quite frankly I don't think that is a fair statement at all . Do you own an Assassin built system ?

Well I do . I have the 150 e-mails that we traded back a forth as two folks in a partnership trying to achieve a common goal . I can assure you that not one time did I feel pressured into doing anything in a stringent "do it my way" attitude . 100 % just the opposite . You gonna get that type of treatment from the big name brands ?

I think you need to re think that last statement . It is one thing to have an opinion . Your making a statement about something you have no first hand knowledge of
post #59 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by assassin View Post

I recommend to people constantly to build their own. In fact, I have a whole hardware guide devoted to it. Like it or not there are definite downsides to buying mass produced junk.

Of course, there is no downside buying from you.
post #60 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by flocko View Post

Quite frankly I don't think that is a fair statement at all . Do you own an Assassin built system ?

How is that not a fair statement? Why do I need to own an Assassin's built system (TM) to make a statement about someone's opinion?
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