HT: Has anyone ever moved from high sensitivity speakers BACK to low sensitivity? - Page 11

I have only owned 2 speaker sets and a sub compress before. The Maggies handled compression much better than my Triads(again, older LCR in room golds). My SVS PB12/plus/2 compressed around 120 dBs at the sub with a limiter on it set to a 25hz filter.

That's why HE speakers sound better than Salon2/ Studio2 at this level - because HE speakers are not compressing at this level? And some people listen at this level?

Well, if you look at the old Ultima Studio, you can see the unraveling taking place (Chart 3, 90db-95db @ 2m). Now whether someone will be able to hear that....when they can't even hear the blatant massive power response/source diffraction, etc. colorations of a bling Brit speaker ("Audiophile" deafness/McGurk type effects)...is another matter entirely.

cheers,

AJ

I guess the only way to know the difference is actual listening. I think many people like myself just don't know exactly what this dynamic difference sound & power handling is.

To recap and make the conversation easier to follow:





That's a slightly different question. Compression occurs on most speakers way before 105 dB ten feet away, and that lack of dynamics leads to lack of impact in HT sound tracks. If you listen at 10 dB below reference, then you only need to find a speaker that handles 95 dB peaks at 10 feet without obvious signs of compression and you are set to go.

I typically demo at Reference, watch action movies alone at or close to Reference, watch action movies with the family about 3 to 5 dB below, and chick flicks around 7 to 10 dB below. Salt to taste.

Exactly. It's like hearing imaging for the first time: addictive!

It's too bad that some other speakers do have a difference plot and this one doesn't, because it would be pretty bad. And that's 95 dB at 2m, not 105 dB at 3 m; an extra 13 to 14 dB to handle.

Don't allow them (people with very high efficiency speakers) to brainwash you. I have owned or had in my home nearly 100 pairs of high quality speakers in a 30 plus year audiophile career.
Different speakers do different things well. It reminds me of when I was a kid. One kid had a Camaro that ran into the 10's, on the street! So, all other cars were "chit" because they would not run a 10 second quarter mile.
His car did ONE thing well, it ran a 10 second quarter mile, but it needed 114 octane aviation gas to do it, and a 5.56 gear ratio that did not allow for cruising on the freeway for long.
It idled like a coffee can full of rocks, and would foul spark plugs.
BUT, it ran a 10 second quarter mile.
So what if something will play loud, IF it sounds like chit ?
My Sons friends used to laugh at me and my multi thousand dollar speakers, because their Cerwin Vegas will play Rap better and louder. Does that mean I should trash all my high quality, low coloration speakers, and buy Cerwin Vegas ?
Of course, my Son's friends quit laughing one day when I had my EV Sentry 3's hooked up to a Crown K2, and told them to put on some Rap and Metal.

There ARE extremely high efficiency speakers that sound absolutely wonderful. Most are extremely expensive, or are no longer made. Electro Voice Interface D's are an awesome high efficiency speaker, and so are the Electro Voice Sentry III's I still own.
But I still own and enjoy lower efficiency speakers very very much!
No ONE speaker I have ever heard (or could afford) does everything best. Pick your poison.
I am unable to pick my poison, so that's why I have so many pairs of speakers:)
For some people here, uncompressed dynamics are the goal, and they are willing to ignore other weaknesses in their speakers to get them, just as the Ostrich will bury it's head in the sand when it see's a Lion.

I'm also just collecting different speakers. I have an active dipole (Orion). Waveguide (Salon2). Coaxial (KEF 201/2). RAAL ribbons & BG midrange (Philharmonic 3). I guess I'm missing a High Efficient design. Gotta try them all, right?

Maybe a High Efficiency Horn Ribbon design?

There are several decent, high efficiency speakers, even used ones. The original Klipsch Forte is one that comes to mind.
They can be had in great used condition for 400.00 a pair!
Believe it or not, the old Cerwin Vega VS 150 has a fairly decent midrange, deep pounding bass, and images decent, for a big box.
The Klipsch Forte also has room rattling bass, for what it is.
It can be a touch bright (not hard and bright) if the room is very live.
It has a huge sound field, and a pair of them will Illuminate the room.

I have heard great things about the Edgar Horns, and speakers from Wayne Parham (PI Speakers)though I have never heard them.
Here is an excellent thread, look at the Crescendo's http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=hug&m=149462

The simple fact of the myriad of choices a designer must navigate is what were essentially discussing here. That's what gives threads such as these much traction,....the various means to an end.

Ka7niq; of all your experiences, owned or merely auditioned, what design/product came closest to having it all? What possessed all the un-colored transparency, high resolving power, imaging, sound-staging, smoothness in response/phase, highly coherent reproduction, and lack of compression/dynamic realism and high output?

What's the primary failing of high sensitivity designs that you take exception to?

Thanks

So discussing is brainwashing? The analogy suggests that we are missing the point with our heads in the sand if uncompressed dynamics are the goal. So what is the goal? Where did I, for example, say that it should be done at the expense of good sound? The point is that it can be done and still have good sound.

Surprising to hear given your previous post! Go up the price scale a bit and under $1000 gets you used La Scala with 104 dB sensitivity. Set them to small and toss in a Tuba HT sub and you've got good sound and high dynamics.

I only ever owned speakers with average (87-89db) and the dynamics of my last two pairs are excellent for music. Lots of audiophile speakers are not high efficieny because it isn't needed when mated with a proper amp/amps. The original thread starter needs speakers that can play 125db, well very few people need that much loudness. Plus I value my hearing so would never play that loud anyway. The audiophiles that use high quality hi efficiency horn speakers usually pair them with low watt tube amps for best sound.

P.S. I am an audiophile I watch my 50 inch plasma TV with it's own speakers.

The whole music debate should be left out of this thread since the OP wants HT. Many speakers can play low levels and many can sound great doing so. I always say it is easy to play loud, it is easy to sound good, the hard part is to sound good while playing loud! How loud you need depends on one's goals.

Yeah sorry for that. Just reading through this thread and it is interesting how different most HT guys think compared to the average audiophile. Plenty of average efficiency speakers sound good loud though, unless you think 95-110db isn't loud enough. But heck if you need to rattle the windows, eardrums etc. while watching movies, thats cool.

Greate quote MK, and all too true. After frying 2 pairs of low sens speaker due to not enough power AND wanting them to play too loud, I moved on, not to say I wont go back, but ill make sure to have 4000watts on tap for my mains when I do I still think you should try the t12's

ka7, you have heard some great speakers, are have even suggested some killer HE designs, you obviously know your speakers, but please, no one is trying to brainwash anyone else around here, there are those speaking highly of our HE designs that we DO like and work well for exactly what the OP wants them to, home theater. Im with you that for stereo listening to music, that certainly opens up the book to more designs and speaker types!

It is all about the dynamics. They are needed for HT much more than music. You will notice that those posting all about HE designs are all theater junkies while the LE designs folks are more music based. You just wont get the dynamics you need out of MOST LE speakers, not to say all...

I think this is where you'd get an argument: I think few 88 dB sensitivity speakers still sound good and uncompressed at 110 dB ten feet away. When people keep turning up the volume until the speakers are way overtaxed and have been showing signs of compression for the last 10 dB increases of volume, it's no surprise that they find 110 dB to be painful to listen to.

I guess I am missing something; what do the professionals use? I am talking about the IMAX, public theaters, concert halls, pubs, etc. use? Since the goal of the HT is to recreate and improve upon those environments given that they have spent more time and money researching and perfecting the solution when compared to small time 'audiophile' who has a very limited amount of knowledge and experience but a large amount of bias.

I think all those tuned in to this thread need to read through this table if they havent done so before:

http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html

Now obviously sound is going to be compressed on recordings, but I want to point out the sound levels required for live music. I wanted this. at my home. I have it. I dont always play it that loud but I can. but if you expect most LE speakers to play that loud without additional compression and distortion you're out of your mind. This is why concerts can be tolerated at these levels, distortion levels are pretty low due to the plethora of speakers used to attain those SPL levels. My arguement here has NOTHING to do with what sounds better at lower levels, im just pointing out what the OP is desiring.

Many movie theaters use Klipsch Cinema or JBL Pro Cinema lines:
http://www.klipsch.com/cinema-speakers

I'd link the JBL Pro Cinama web page, but google says it is hiding malware!
As for Klipsch Cinema, people are using the Jubilee in the home. It's initial intent was as replacement for the Klipschorn as flagship.

Ok, these speakers were the ones I wish I would have kept!
I was a young audiophile then, with more money then sense. I saw an ad for these VMPS Speakers in the back of Audio Magazine.
It was 1981
I sent nearly 5000,00 to VMPS,and a month later, they arrived.
I did not have the amp to drive them, or the experience to tune them properly. My friends made fun of me for buying them. I had several really big guys at my house (the VMPS Wide Range Ribbons weighed nearly 400 lbs) and they offered to help me box them back up, and send them back.
Brian Cheyney of VMPS told me he would gladly refund my money, but paid my way down to California (I lived in Seattle back then) to hear them properly set up.
My friend and I got on an airplane to san franscisco (Brian picked us up) and heard them PROPERLY driven (With a 150 lb Bedini Amp) in Brian's Factory.
They Blew our minds, Transparency to rival any electrostat ( I used to own Acoustat 8's) imaging that was wall to wall with pinpoint depth, bass that shook the entire room, and played loud as any horn. Dynamics were incredible.
My Ego was quite large back then (LOL, it still is, but I am working on it) and I could not admit to Brian they sounded great. I told all my friends back in Seattle I was going to California to get my money back, or a piece of Brian's Azz.
Brian and I worked out a deal that was fair to us all, and I left. But honestly, I have never been quite the same, after hearing them.

Second overall (because they did not image) was a full blown Western Electric Field Coil Horn System I drove up to Vancouver, BC to hear, , using all tube crossovers and SET Triode amplifiers.

Third overall were the HUGE Acoustat Model 8's Electrostats I owned, and donated (for a tax write off) to the Pacific Northwest Audio Society In Seattle, driven by 4 of Bob Carver's all Tube Monoblocks.

I am 57 years old now, and don't have nearly the money I had as a younger Man. I did some shady stuff in my younger years, and let's just say it paid a lot better then what I do now as a teacher of roof cleaning

For relaxing and enjoying music, I usually listen at 65 to 80db peaks at 11 feet from speakers. That is measured with a sound level meter thingy I bought a while back to play with. Some times I crank it up when no one else is home to get mad at me. I can understand the need or want of HE speakers for enhancing the dynamics of movie sound affects.

sweet story.
kind of ironic though that your favorite is a fairly high sensitivity loudspeaker (94dB/W/m)

Okay, now if you consider the La Scala HE Hi-fi, then I'm disappointed. I auditioned those speakers at a dealer once. I did not think they sounded as good as Revel, KEF, etc. Now I understand if some people like those speakers. Everything is subjective.

But I hate the sound of every single cinema speaker I've ever heard - THX, IMAX, all the new digital cinemas.

They certainly need a sub for balance, but they have a nice effortless midrange and they image like crazy.

Note that I said "sound good" and never said HiFi, which to me is an audiophile term for overpriced.

Edit: The La Scala II was in Stereophile magazine's "Recommended Components" in the "A" class for speakers with restricted extreme low frequency and was only removed because it timed out. So even some HiFi enthusiasts like it.

Edit again: Quote from the review: To get dynamics like this elsewhere, you might be looking at a very expensive pair of speakers—$20,000 or $30,000 a pair, or more—plus equally expensive, heroic, high-power amplification. Interesting that he noticed the lifelike dynamics!
Edited by psgcdn - 6/22/12 at 3:55pm

Thanks, I am most certainly NOT anti high efficiency (I still own Electro Voice Sentry III's)
I must admit, I am far more of an audiophile then a home theater guy, but this is sort of changing.
I like High Efficiency speakers, especially for Heavy Metal. Stuff I sometimes like (Black Sabbath. Metallica, Scorpions, Judas Priest) and Classic Rock takes a speaker of high efficiency, if you want to crank it.
Sometimes, my Sentry III's are hooked up for home theatre, Though they are not as efficient as my old 3 piece Klipsch System ( 2 Klipschorns and a Belle Center) they are still near 100 db 1 watt 1 meter.
I have to use a phantom center mode with the Electro Voice Sentry 3's ( I can't find any matching center to keep up)
Using the Audyssey EQ built into an Onkyo HT RC 180 (Do not buy one) they are fun for home theater. I really like that Vin Diesel Movie "The Chronicles Of Riddick"
That's pretty cool, and the bass on it is nearly overwhelming.
I need some more efficient surrounds though, and my home brew subs can hardly keep up.

I hear, and understand why people like high efficiency speakers.
Everyone has their idea of what they want a speaker to do. Really, it's all good, and that's why we have so many different types of speakers.

I am a long time audiophile, and to be honest, most of my old audio friends on the west coast (I now live in Tampa) are now a part of the DIY community.
They gave up long ago on trying to buy what they wanted, and now roll their own.
They now play with things like bending wave drivers, field coil compression drivers and woofers, and hand made horns, or ribbon drivers with waveguides, that kind of stuff.
Some have went to SET Tube Amplifiers, and super high efficiency all horn loaded systems.

LOL, they "say they will pray for me", because of my interest in home theater.