Why pay $5000+ for speakers? - Page 6

Originally Posted by Rutgar

Knowing several high-end speaker designer/manufacturers, it is my understanding that the bulk of the cost in manufacturing speakers, is in the cost of the cabinet work. Some manufacturers farm the work out, to help hold down costs. Some do everything in house. So it's not really a fair point when pointing out only the cost of the driver and crossover components, when talking about the overall prices.

Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger

Haha. That depends on whether one wants to go with several wives with lower expectations or one very hot wife with great expectations.

Originally Posted by Randy Bessinger

At least they try to eliminate sight (and suggestion) bias which is well demonstrated by Penn and Teller in hilarious fashion. Most subjective reports are just anecdotal which are pretty much worthless IMO. You may give them as much weight as you care to.

Originally Posted by DS-21

Cabinets matter. A cabinet's shape, finish, etc. can add substantially to the cost, yes. But they can also add substantially to a speaker's acceptability in a room. Perhaps not for an audiophile bachelor, but for everyone else who doesn't fit that description.

Let me give you two examples of two corporate-sibling speakers that sound way more similar than different. (Both are standout loudspeakers in every possible way.)

First, the JBL LSR 6332, which costs maybe $3k the pair:


Second, the Revel Ultima Studio2, which is a lot more expensive:


The JBL "studio monitors" are in well-built cabinets, with attention to detail that serious audio buffs will notice, such as the edge roundovers to reduce diffraction. But they are finished to be hidden or used in a work environment: no veneer, no high gloss finishes, for that matter no grilles available. The Revels clearly have a lot more going on both in the shape of the cabinet, and in the quality of materials and labor used to finish them. They, simply speaking, look expensive.

I suspect that most people would rather look at the Revels. Most people who are not into audio would certainly prefer to look at the Revels!

Now, if you're putting them behind a screen, or otherwise hiding them, and are choosing between these two speakers, it makes a lot more sense to get the JBL's than the Revels. In that case, the cabinet aesthetic is of de minimis importance. So why pay for it?

Originally Posted by Reefdvr27

To say it better, it is a status symbol. "Hey man, look at my 20K dollar speakers", WOW really, you must be rich.

Now with that said, disregarding aesthetics, how about a list of what folks would consider, 'sonically world-class not really possible to get better sound in an average sized listening room' speakers in the $1k to $10k MSRP price range?

Originally Posted by djbluemax1

Threads like these are more amusing as a psychological exercise/study, than anything about speaker design/costs/marketing. It always seems that folk feel a need to justify their particular financial sensibilities, i.e. folks who can just about afford a $5k pair of speakers (and who place a maximum value on audio reproduction at about that level) will ask why anyone would need to spend more than $5k on a pair of speakers. Are they hoping for emotional support from others who agree with them to make them feel better or more comfortable about their own particular choices?

Folks who can just about afford a pair of $2k speakers are likely to bring that up as the pricepoint beyond which the law of diminishing returns dictates that the added costs outweigh the potential benefits/improvements by too great a margin. Likewise, folks who can afford $50k speakers are likely to state that there are lots of great speakers available for $50k and that there is no point in going higher in price etc. etc.

If you can afford it, go for it. If you're happy with what you have, even if they cost $39.99 MSRP, so be it. I think it's the folks that can just about justify $5k speakers (or $2k, or $10k, or whatever) but are afraid that $20k or $100k speakers just might actually be better who feel the need to justify their own decisions, limitations.

Now with that said, disregarding aesthetics, how about a list of what folks would consider, 'sonically world-class not really possible to get better sound in an average sized listening room' speakers in the $1k to $10k MSRP price range?


Max

Originally Posted by Rick Craig

Many times too much of the budget is in the cabinet and not enough in the drivers...

Originally Posted by lovinthehd

Or paying too much for some "designer's" idea of what's attractive...those Revels just aren't as good looking as the JBLs, to me, especially for what they're charging for them...what's up with the funky little weird feet on those things? Hopefully they look better with the grill on, too.

Originally Posted by Nuance





This is a good example of what I stated above, because I think the Revel's are sexy.

Originally Posted by Nuance

toslat,

Have you read the case study from 2003 that Sean Olive performed regarding five different listening groups and their preferences of loudspeakers based on sound quality and on and off-axis response?

Originally Posted by lovinthehd


So you're saying you're a cankle kind of guy?

Originally Posted by Nuance

If they want to spend a bazillion dollars on speakers, so be it...

Originally Posted by YeuEmMaiMai

would I pay $5K for speakers? IMHO I think you are nuts to spend that kind of money on such a frivilous item. I'd rather do something useful with my cash like give to a charity...... I have heard cheap speakers and what I consider to be expensive speakers and I settled for the cheap ones.... Funny thing is that even after 20 years the still work flawlessly....and that is all that matters to me....

btw sound is subjective, just like all of your other senses and what sounds good to one person may sound like crap or makes little difference to another person...

Originally Posted by toslat

If the objective is to genuinely seek which factors strongly influence our perception of sound production, a fairer study would let all possible factors be in play and then analyse the results to see the trends inherent. Trying to eliminate some factors apriori, and/or weed out certain responses post mortem, simply colors the result and makes it generalization flawed and dubious.

Now with that said, disregarding aesthetics, how about a list of what folks would consider, 'sonically world-class not really possible to get better sound in an average sized listening room' speakers in the $1k to $10k MSRP price range?

Max

Originally Posted by russ_777

I think this sets the bar too high....at least for me.

How about "provides 90% of the sonic satisfaction of world class speakers...." instead?

Originally Posted by djbluemax1

It always seems that folk feel a need to justify their particular financial sensibilities...
Are they hoping for emotional support from others who agree with them to make them feel better or more comfortable about their own particular choices?

Originally Posted by Rutgar

90% is a little more realistic proposal, I think.
Having extensively heard loudspeakers ranging from the $1K to $10k range, and all the way up to several hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have never heard a pair of speakers costing less than $10K that come close to equal or better than some of the finer loudspeakers costing say between $20K and $150K (although, for some reason, and from most of the loudspeakers I've heard, a clearer dividing line seems to appear more around the $30 to $40K range).

Personally, I think even 90% is a little high. But realistically, I can accept it as a subjective measuring stick, for those who would like to post their favorite under $10K candidates.

Originally Posted by rnrgagne

I don't think that's doable, there's just way too many factors in play and the sample size would have to be so large to garner any reasonable consensus.

I think you're right that visual stimuli can influence things but actually plunking down $20k on a pair of speakers might have the biggest impact on acoustic perception, since there's a reason you're doing it in the first place, generally a belief.

If all you're trying to do is establish a baseline of preference, then there's nothing wrong with a test like that. I don't think it's dubious in the slightest.

Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy

So.....why exactly are you even on audio forums when all you need are some cheap Walmart speakers?

And why live in a nice 3,000 SF house when you can give your money to charity and live in a 1,000 SF HUD Home right?

Why drive a nice $25,000 car when you can give your money to charity and drive a $5,000 used car, right?

Originally Posted by AcuDefTechGuy



I'd like Seven Salon2 and Four Funk Audio 18.0 please (notice the S-S and the F-F sound there for smooth effect ).

Originally Posted by jima4a


All I've seem to read about are philosophical discussions, not many hard examples. So what models can compete with those above that are less than $5K, without the need for subs for 2 channel?

Originally Posted by jima4a

I wish I had the money and the space for what I would consider the Ultimate system which be speakers such as Kef Blades, Revel Ultima Salon2, B&W 800 Diamonds (I know these polarize this forum but I'd take them if given), Aerial Accoustics 20Ts, Vandersteen Model 7, and I'm sure I could find a couple more to add to this list. But since I don't have access to the Greatroom (wife doesn't want ugly speakers in there), I am limited by footprint. Actually our bedroom is big enough but I don't think I'd get that either. Thus, I would like to get close but perhaps just a notch down. I believe that leaves me with Kef Reference 205/2, Revel Ultima Studio2, Salk Soundscape 8s, Focal Electra 1038Be, Dynaudio Confidence 2, Thiel CS3.7, B&W 803 Diamond to name some top contenders. All of these are in the 8 to 16 K$ range. If I could find something that was just as good but less than 5K$, that would be great. The only speakers I've heard about recently that are less than $5k are the above mentioned JBL LSR6332 Studio Monitors which are more commercial and would need to be matched with subs for lows. No grills.

All I've seem to read about are philosophical discussions, not many hard examples. So what models can compete with those above that are less than $5K, without the need for subs for 2 channel?

Originally Posted by Nuance

I actually agree with you for once (about the Wilson's). What I don't agree with is you being able to simply look at a speaker and claim it's not high fidelity. You do the same thing over at Audioholics and people just ignore your claims. Measurements and listening will give you the information necessary to determine if a speaker is high fidelity or not; just looking at them is worthless. Controlled directivity designs aren't the only ones that sound great, measure great and actually sell. You're like a broken record man.

Since you like to bash every design out there other than controlled directivty (which don't all sound and measure good), where are your line of speakers? I'd like to try them out. You seem to think you're an expert, so where is your award winning design? I'd love to give it a listen. Will you be at RMAF or any of the audio shows? I think I already know the answer...

saprano,

$5000 is a lot of coin for speakers. Depending on the design and preferences of the listener, $5000 could be plenty for high fidelity, or maybe not. It's really too subjective. I've heard speakers for <$5000 that blew away $10,000 speakers, so the general rule of thumb that "you get what you pay for" gets thrown out the windows when it comes to speakers. If you're focused on good designs, though, at that price you're getting into the point of diminishing returns IMO. And once you hit that point it all becomes subjective. Looks play a huge role for some, and not so much for others. Wives don't seem to share the same passion their husbands do, so WAF is extremely important (perhaps more important for some than the actual sound). Then there is the listening room - wow, don't even get me started on the affects it has on the sound. There's no perfect speaker for everyone, unlike that sweet Kuro Plasma you have, which is a near perfect TV.

The short answer is this: only you can answer your questions; all the rest of us can offer is subjective viewpoints. And honestly, threads like this usually just turning into a pi$$ing match, but hopefully you got some good info out of it.

Originally Posted by Reefdvr27

To say it better, it is a status symbol. "Hey man, look at my 20K dollar speakers", WOW really, you must be rich.
However, I would love to have a set of Salk Soundscapes

Originally Posted by Rick Craig


DS-21 is correct in that you can look at a speaker and get a good idea of what its' limitations will be. The format and driver layout play a large role in what the design will be capable of reproducing.