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Are You Looking For A Less Expensive Norco 4220 / 4224 Alternative? - Page 27

post #781 of 1494
8/21/12 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fzdog2 View Post

What processors you upgrading to?

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Six-Core%20Opteron%202419%20EE%20-%20OS2419NBS6DGN.html

I got the 2419 EE, which are 6-core @ 40w each to minimize power draw. I think someone else in the thread was getting the same ones, they are available on eBay for $50 each.
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post #782 of 1494
8/21/12 at 11:23am

The price difference is $110. You could spend nearly 2x than that in shipping and some basic replacements to make it quieter. IMO the 4U server is a better value for money as you are getting a lot more hardware and expandability, and the added costs are about the same. You don't need to replace the cpu/ram, that's simply an upgrade for more power.

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post #783 of 1494
8/21/12 at 11:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggrich76 View Post

..
The 12-bay 2U units will be smaller (obviously), less noisy and only allow single CPU unless you change the motherboard.
......

are your sure 2U server is less noisy? these are from my experiences,
2U has tendency generate more noise tha 4U :P.... why? 4U has good air flow, 2U need to extra force to push air to let the heat out from the case

1U<- the bad boy of noise
4U<- can be a bad or good boy biggrin.gif..
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post #784 of 1494
8/21/12 at 11:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

The price difference is $110. You could spend nearly 2x than that in shipping and some basic replacements to make it quieter. IMO the 4U server is a better value for money as you are getting a lot more hardware and expandability, and the added costs are about the same. You don't need to replace the cpu/ram, that's simply an upgrade for more power.
ditto, 4U is a lot better and easy to tame fan noise and heat


side note:
someone said tthat 2U motherboard is ~$200:
I do not buy it that 2U motherboard is $200 hehe, it was... but I can buy current motherboard and new technologies less than $200
the opteron motherboard that comes from4U was $300 hehehe, it was...
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post #785 of 1494
8/21/12 at 11:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggrich76 View Post

http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/K10/AMD-Six-Core%20Opteron%202419%20EE%20-%20OS2419NBS6DGN.html
I got the 2419 EE, which are 6-core @ 40w each to minimize power draw. I think someone else in the thread was getting the same ones, they are available on eBay for $50 each.

just would like to share about the information that I know a longtime...where I built my workstation(already moved to esxi), everyone can disagree.

AMD EE was released to compete with Xeon Low power series L, and even Intel released very very low power (LV and ULV where were not a success)

on my understanding, L5XXXX still the best bucks comparing with opteron EE.
this was the reason many offer X,E,L series for their product. still L did not compete with X and E, but L had market at that time when many were talking "green energy" .

opteron HE is a lot better than EE as I understand.
on this side, many vendor provided regular opteron and HE, not EE smile.gif.. at that time.
most situation less core HE is better than more core EE :P.
I would stick with regular 45nm opteron and 45nm opteron HE is possible.

I do not buying that EE woudl save much energy than HE smile.gif. some ebay seller try to do that for selling EE.
the good thing is, I can buy cheap regular or HE on ebay.. I bought ~$10 including shipping for opteron 24XX 75W rated with heatsink since nobody was not bidding except me.
Edited by bima - 8/21/12 at 12:01pm
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post #786 of 1494
8/21/12 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrunnings82 View Post

Here are some sketches of the 120mm fan wall. Kudos to my daughter - I can't figure out sketchup to save my life!
...


ha... your daughter outsmarts you:D...

I am still thinking to keep norco fan wall or not...,since already have it
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post #787 of 1494
8/21/12 at 12:36pm
The only thing louder than these fans, is the constant beep from a failed power supply. biggrin.gif



I've already contacted Andy, we'll see if there is a warranty. If not, looks like I will be doing the PSU hack along with the rest of you. smile.gif
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post #788 of 1494
8/21/12 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bima View Post

just would like to share about the information that I know a longtime...where I built my workstation(already moved to esxi), everyone can disagree.
AMD EE was released to compete with Xeon Low power series L, and even Intel released very very low power (LV and ULV where were not a success)
on my understanding, L5XXXX still the best bucks comparing with opteron EE.
this was the reason many offer X,E,L series for their product. still L did not compete with X and E, but L had market at that time when many were talking "green energy" .
opteron HE is a lot better than EE as I understand.
on this side, many vendor provided regular opteron and HE, not EE smile.gif.. at that time.
most situation less core HE is better than more core EE :P.
I would stick with regular 45nm opteron and 45nm opteron HE is possible.
I do not buying that EE woudl save much energy than HE smile.gif. some ebay seller try to do that for selling EE.
the good thing is, I can buy cheap regular or HE on ebay.. I bought ~$10 including shipping for opteron 24XX 75W rated with heatsink since nobody was not bidding except me.

I'd be interested to see any benchmarks to support your statements. I've been digging around, and the only thing I could find was from a press release back in 2009;
Quote:
A two-way server running a pair of Opteron 2419 EE six-core processors scored a 1,614 on the SPECpower_ssj2008 benchmark test, compared to the same brand of server (ZT Systems 1224Ra) running a pair of quad-core Opteron 2384s, which scored a 1,166 on the same test.

Read more: http://geeknizer.com/amds-six-core-low-power-40watt-opteron-ee-for-servers/#ixzz24DEYcs00

Generally, 6 cores > 4 cores even at lower GHz, especially when using them to run Virtual Machines which is exactly what I'll be doing. And these EE chips have a ACP of 40W and a TDP of 60W, and the HE chips are more like 55W/79W respectively.

The reason people did not buy these when they released because the 2xxx series was pretty much end of life already and they were $1,000 each at the time. For my application and the price I got them for I think they will perform just great.
Edited by Biggrich76 - 8/21/12 at 1:05pm
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post #789 of 1494
8/21/12 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggrich76 View Post

I'd be interested to see any benchmarks to support your statements. I've been digging around, and the only thing I could find was from a press release back in 2009;
Generally, 6 cores > 4 cores even at lower GHz, especially when using them to run Virtual Machines which is exactly what I'll be doing. And these EE chips have a ACP of 40W and a TDP of 60W, and the HE chips are more like 55W/79W respectively.
The reason people did not buy these when they released because the 2xxx series was pretty much end of life already and they were $1,000 each at the time. For my application and the price I got them for I think they will perform just great.

Here you go:

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/multi_cpu.html



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post #790 of 1494
8/21/12 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeldomSeen31 View Post

I ordered one of the 12bay 2u systems. It should arrive Thursday.
I am a total novice when it comes to this sort of thing. I have built one computer successfully, was an early adopter of the Assassin way. I have been looking at unraid for quite some time and had pieced together a recommended build in to a wishlist at newegg. But I never pulled the trigger, partly due to cost of the system and then to the post tsunami rise in HD prices.
I have just a small portion of my movie library ripped, mostly just the kids' movies and with my entire music library ripped to WAV I have 2TB of data there alone. I have been looking to expand and this seemed like the perfect cost/performance item.
I have 4 2TB hard drives at the moment and can expand as I fill them up.
I no experience with a system like this and only knowing what is possible with it based on what has been posted here. I think I'll just install 3 drives and unraid to start with, see if I can get it working with my Dune player and JRiver instances running on other PCs. From the sound of how unraid works with the motherboard, and that this system works out of the box, it should be a simple thing to get the OS installed and be ready to go with no further modifications. The thing will be on the storage/equipment/laundry side of my basement so sound shouldn't be too much of an issue. If it is louder than my furnace, then I may need to make some changes.
Thanks for this thread. Hopefully I won't be needing too much support when this thing arrives. If anyone has info that I should know before proceeding, I'd be happy to have it.


SeldomSeen31, I am in a similar situation. While I already have an unraid server, I have nearly maxed out my little HP N40L with 6 2TB drives. This setup looks to be a quick and inexpensive (not cheap) solution to my expanding media library needs. I am running Unraid along with XBMC on 2 HTPCs in my house. Plan on expanding that to 4 HTPCs (hopefully cheap android solutions) in the near future, or I might run a combo of XBMC and Plex. While I have built a ton of Desktop PCs in my day, I am a linux newbie. But with this server I plan to leave it as is and just drop a thumb drive in for the Unraid OS and go. I am hoping a closet under my steps will be enough to contain the noise level. Have been in server hosting facilities and data farms, and we even have a small one here at the office, so I am curious to see if the noise generated by this server will be to great to deal with even in a Large closet. If you haven't installed Unraid before, don't sweat it. It was my first ever install of a Linux OS and it was pretty easy. Just read the setup instructions and be patient with the preclears and such, and you should be good to go. I am still waiting for the email response from my phone call last week. I hope I get the opportunity to purchase the 24 bay server. I feel it will be the perfect solution for a growing media library.
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post #791 of 1494
8/21/12 at 2:29pm
Anybody can confirm if this guys send a notification/tracking number or the machines just show up?.
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post #792 of 1494
8/21/12 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyruspy View Post

Anybody can confirm if this guys send a notification/tracking number or the machines just show up?.

I got a tracking number and invoice via email.
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post #793 of 1494
8/21/12 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ugotd8 View Post

The only thing louder than these fans, is the constant beep from a failed power supply. biggrin.gif
I've already contacted Andy, we'll see if there is a warranty. If not, looks like I will be doing the PSU hack along with the rest of you. smile.gif

If you want to use it with only 1 of the power supplies without the beep just disconnect the "Power Supply I2C Header" from the motherboard. You lose monitor capability of psu but turns off the beeping.
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post #794 of 1494
8/21/12 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneFast3 View Post

If you want to use it with only 1 of the power supplies without the beep just disconnect the "Power Supply I2C Header" from the motherboard. You lose monitor capability of psu but turns off the beeping.

Great tip, thanks. Even though my server is in the basement, can still hear that beep! Everyone here was going a little crazy. :-)
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post #795 of 1494
8/21/12 at 3:07pm
Does anyone know where to get the drive bays for the 4U servers?
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post #796 of 1494
8/21/12 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggrich76 View Post

..
Generally, 6 cores > 4 cores even at lower GHz, especially when using them to run Virtual Machines which is exactly what I'll be doing. And these EE chips have a ACP of 40W and a TDP of 60W, and the HE chips are more like 55W/79W respectively.
The reason people did not buy these when they released because the 2xxx series was pretty much end of life already and they were $1,000 each at the time. For my application and the price I got them for I think they will perform just great.

do you mean bare metal virtual machine servers, for example, esxi, xen clould, or others.?

all physical cores are not assigned directly to each VM, the host kernel including Virtual-technology ( can be amd or Intel) assigned to each VM,
every VM will be assigned as "virtual" cores biggrin.gif.

AMD was catching in virtual area at that time, where Intel was already diving in with stable Virtual technolog vt-i/vt-d:D, with 50XX series and support direct-path on 54XX series (AMD was catching but still lacking behind).

if you need to run VM, intel 5XXXX is the best selection comparing with opteron 2XXX. and the other thing is... nVideo MCP-55PRO chipset on 4U server is not very good running as bare metal host( as I understand, nVidia rushed the release).

40W rated does not mean saving energy, this is just telling us that " low power processor".

actually, AMD was late releasing their opteron and Intel went ahead at that time smile.gif.

this is up to you where price and value are meet your goal smile.gif

on mine, I move my intel motherboard to be esxi and exceed my expectation . ehem actually one one that I wished: Intel should not use FB DIMM memory on 5XXX platform smile.gif.


at the end, I would like to share my knowledge, Not arguing biggrin.gif
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post #797 of 1494
8/21/12 at 3:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneFast3 View Post

If you want to use it with only 1 of the power supplies without the beep just disconnect the "Power Supply I2C Header" from the motherboard. You lose monitor capability of psu but turns off the beeping.

I think.....
just and use one PSU,( remove the other) the system doesn't beep.
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post #798 of 1494
8/21/12 at 4:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bing281 View Post

Here you go:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/multi_cpu.html

Thanks for the link. The 2419s you highlighted don't specifically say "EE" and there are in fact 2 versions of the 2419 chip so those charts may not be a fair comparison. And the other 6-core CPUs that you highligted are upwards of $200 each on eBay right now.

I'm actually more interested in the performance comparisons of a 23xx HE 4-core vs. a 24xx EE 6-core, which I'm having a hard time finding. Unfortunately, not many websites do server CPU comparisons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bima View Post

do you mean bare metal virtual machine servers, for example, esxi, xen clould, or others.?
all physical cores are not assigned directly to each VM, the host kernel including Virtual-technology ( can be amd or Intel) assigned to each VM,
every VM will be assigned as "virtual" cores biggrin.gif.
AMD was catching in virtual area at that time, where Intel was already diving in with stable Virtual technolog vt-i/vt-d:D, with 50XX series and support direct-path on 54XX series (AMD was catching but still lacking behind).
if you need to run VM, intel 5XXXX is the best selection comparing with opteron 2XXX. and the other thing is... nVideo MCP-55PRO chipset on 4U server is not very good running as bare metal host( as I understand, nVidia rushed the release).
40W rated does not mean saving energy, this is just telling us that " low power processor".
actually, AMD was late releasing their opteron and Intel went ahead at that time smile.gif.
this is up to you where price and value are meet your goal smile.gif
on mine, I move my intel motherboard to be esxi and exceed my expectation . ehem actually one one that I wished: Intel should not use FB DIMM memory on 5XXX platform smile.gif.
at the end, I would like to share my knowledge, Not arguing biggrin.gif

No arguing here, I'm just interested in seeing the data comparisons. And I'm not comparing Opteron to Xeon, I already have the AMD box so I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck now without increasing my power usage significantly. For me, I think (and hope) the 2419 EEs will give me the right balance for my needs.

My only previous experience was with VMWare Workstation, but I will be expanding into vSphere with ESX/ESXi. I understand that physical cores =/= virtual cores, but you can assign additional physical cores to each virtual core if needed to increase performance. I still have a lot of reading to do before getting up and running.
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post #799 of 1494
8/21/12 at 7:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bima View Post

are your sure 2U server is less noisy? these are from my experiences,
2U has tendency generate more noise tha 4U :P.... why? 4U has good air flow, 2U need to extra force to push air to let the heat out from the case
1U<- the bad boy of noise
4U<- can be a bad or good boy biggrin.gif..

Stock... the 2U is quieter than the 4U

The machines use the same model 80mm fans. The 4U uses five and the 2U uses three... That's less noise right of the bat. The 2U also uses a lower wattage PSU... 800 vs 900. That makes a difference in volume as well.

Check out the PSU volume/noise here.

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412640/are-you-looking-for-a-less-expensive-norco-4220-4224-alternative/600#post_22304676
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post #800 of 1494
8/21/12 at 10:55pm
I thought these servers didn't support virtualization since the chipset doesn't have the AMD equivalent of VT-d and thus you can't pass thru hardware resources in Hyperv/esxi ?
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post #801 of 1494
8/21/12 at 11:28pm
VT-d/IOMMU is just one part of the virtualization puzzle. The servers can be virtualized, but not with passthrough of PCI-cards to the guest OS. Although with Xen, you can do PCI-passthrough to a paravirtualized guest, if the guest OS supports it (which unfortunately, neither FreeBSD or OpenIndiana does).
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post #802 of 1494
8/22/12 at 12:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litlgi74 View Post

Stock... the 2U is quieter than the 4U
The machines use the same model 80mm fans. The 4U uses five and the 2U uses three... That's less noise right of the bat. The 2U also uses a lower wattage PSU... 800 vs 900. That makes a difference in volume as well.
Check out the PSU volume/noise here.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412640/are-you-looking-for-a-less-expensive-norco-4220-4224-alternative/600#post_22304676

hehhe actually, 2U is less noise than 4U by assuming 700W versus 900W. but.... once you replace all fan with low rpm 120mm for front and 80mm back fans. this will be night and day when comparing 2U( fans already replaced with low 80mm rpm) versus 4U. PSU is replaced by regular desktop size for 4U, and non-redundant 2U PSU for 2U

4U is easy to tame the noise than 2U:P...

already got my 4U server order:D. pretty fast!. they give me one module 700W and one module 900W :P. weird!
If I am using those modules, I would complain to them smile.gif

you can not compare the noise by video where is no absolute db numbers, you need db sound meter to measure how loud is the noise:D
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post #803 of 1494
8/22/12 at 12:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nilsga View Post

VT-d/IOMMU is just one part of the virtualization puzzle. The servers can be virtualized, but not with passthrough of PCI-cards to the guest OS. Although with Xen, you can do PCI-passthrough to a paravirtualized guest, if the guest OS supports it (which unfortunately, neither FreeBSD or OpenIndiana does).
paravirtualized has some penalties than direct passthrough biggrin.gif. since xen uses specialized linux kernel.
on non Xen, we can use paravirtualized with specialized kernel for virtualization

vt-d/iommu is a hardware passthrough mechanism. some motherboard do not implement correctly in their BIOS. please pick your motherboard wisely

I can passthrough (AMD iommu) without issue (just my curiosity) using gigabyte 990FXA UD5 with FX-4100. the Motherboard BIOS enables ECC memory menu. when ECC UDIMM DDR3 is installed.
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post #804 of 1494
8/22/12 at 12:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bima View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Litlgi74 View Post

Stock... the 2U is quieter than the 4U
The machines use the same model 80mm fans. The 4U uses five and the 2U uses three... That's less noise right of the bat. The 2U also uses a lower wattage PSU... 800 vs 900. That makes a difference in volume as well.
Check out the PSU volume/noise here.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1412640/are-you-looking-for-a-less-expensive-norco-4220-4224-alternative/600#post_22304676

hehhe actually, 2U is less noise than 4U by assuming 700W versus 900W. but.... once you replace all fan with low rpm 120mm for front and 80mm back fans. this will be night and day when comparing 2U( fans already replaced with low 80mm rpm) versus 4U. PSU is replaced by regular desktop size for 4U, and non-redundant 2U PSU for 2U

4U is easy to tame the noise than 2U:P...

already got my 4U server order:D. pretty fast!. they give me one module 700W and one module 900W :P. weird!
If I am using those modules, I would complain to them smile.gif

you can not compare the noise by video where is no absolute db numbers, you need db sound meter to measure how loud is the noise:D

Good point, but since I don't have one I'm going to use an app on my phone to measure this. Should at least give a relative difference after changing the psu/fans.

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post #805 of 1494
8/22/12 at 12:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggrich76 View Post

Thanks for the link. The 2419s you highlighted don't specifically say "EE" and there are in fact 2 versions of the 2419 chip so those charts may not be a fair comparison. And the other 6-core CPUs that you highligted are upwards of $200 each on eBay right now.
I'm actually more interested in the performance comparisons of a 23xx HE 4-core vs. a 24xx EE 6-core, which I'm having a hard time finding. Unfortunately, not many websites do server CPU comparisons.
No arguing here, I'm just interested in seeing the data comparisons. And I'm not comparing Opteron to Xeon, I already have the AMD box so I'm just looking for the best bang for my buck now without increasing my power usage significantly. For me, I think (and hope) the 2419 EEs will give me the right balance for my needs.
My only previous experience was with VMWare Workstation, but I will be expanding into vSphere with ESX/ESXi. I understand that physical cores =/= virtual cores, but you can assign additional physical cores to each virtual core if needed to increase performance. I still have a lot of reading to do before getting up and running.

EE performance is lower than non EE. when you see the synthetic chart, EE should gains lower number than non EE.
this is a starting point to know how AMD methodology for their 3rd release http://www.amd.com/us/products/server/processors/opteron/Pages/3rd-gen-server-model-numbers.aspx

esxi is bare metal that can not be compared with vmware workstation that sit on the running OS
you can assign "physical core" but is not a real direct hardware core smile.gif. in addition, you can assign many virtual cores on the top of "physical core".


you should pay attention with nVidia MCP55Pro chipset too.. this is a hindrance for some old motherboard.

for me:
if you need entry level baremetal xeon E3 is a good selection with less power consumption.
the best bang for AMD is 990FX/FXA with fx-4100. I tested and satisfied the performance.

rule of thumb: do not spend much money on old hardware where you can not gain much in performance/technology.

I just replace with a cheapest opteron 45nm 75W rated, and move my primary storage server from 990FXA/FX4100 to 4U supermicro.
990FXA/FX4100 will be my new workstation.

speaking on ebay: the price is going up by demands smile.gif. it was easy to get IBM M1015 "buy it now button" for $60-$70. the current trend for IBM M1015 is $90- up(not buy it now)... many are looking for M1015 heheh (including me).
Edited by bima - 8/22/12 at 12:45am
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post #806 of 1494
8/22/12 at 12:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

I thought these servers didn't support virtualization since the chipset doesn't have the AMD equivalent of VT-d and thus you can't pass thru hardware resources in Hyperv/esxi ?

Intel:
vt-d is for hardware passthrough in virtualization
vt-x is for virtualization


AMD:
AMD-V is for virtualization
IOMMU is fo passthrough,
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post #807 of 1494
8/22/12 at 2:08am
Just to add confusion - Even though these older Supermicro AMD motherboards have a BIOS setting for IOMMU, it's _not_ the same as IOMMU needed for PCI passthrough... Only the latest generation AMD boards have the required support for hardware-vritualized PCI passthrough.
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post #808 of 1494
8/22/12 at 4:32am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

Good point, but since I don't have one I'm going to use an app on my phone to measure this. Should at least give a relative difference after changing the psu/fans.

Exactly.
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post #809 of 1494
8/22/12 at 5:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Defcon View Post

I thought these servers didn't support virtualization since the chipset doesn't have the AMD equivalent of VT-d and thus you can't pass thru hardware resources in Hyperv/esxi ?

Just keep in mind the price of these is great even without the motherboard inside it. So if you need more than what the included motherboard/cpu/ram might offer just upgrade them separately. I picked up a different Xeon 771 motherboard just to get VT-d hardware pass-through for ESXi and openindiana and it's working. I got to keep using the FB-DIMM ram and processors.

Now, at some point going for really modern stuff might be an even better plan. My advice on this front is pay attention to the RAM costs. For running a VM host with modern OS guests you need a LOT OF RAM. That and having ECC memory is pretty much required if you want reliability/stability. So you need to look closely at whether the motherboard has enough memory expansion options. Sometimes it's less expensive to be able to go with multiple smaller density modules. As in, 8 slots of 4GB memory might be a good bit less expensive than 4 slots of 8GB. Just keep this in mind as you ponder upgrade options. Because with virtualization your weakest point is almost always RAM, not CPU.
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post #810 of 1494
8/22/12 at 6:56am
Ram is the first priority. CPU is the second position.

CPU will be the main role when some VMs are running intensive computing.

For example, zfs loves memory, database app loves I/o, or compiling big source code loves CPU cycles-i/o

Set each VM uniquely is the best option.
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