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BD as CD Player - Some Questions about an Evolving System

post #1 of 19
5/28/12 at 12:55pm
Thread Starter 
Please bear with me on this one as I am still pretty low on the learning curve. I was heavy into hi-fi in the 70s and 80s, but there is a great deal about digital that I just don't get. This will be a long post because I just don't know enough to write a short one. The question I am asking here is just one of several inter-related questions I have about an evolving system, and I am not sure just what is and is not relevant to the question. Alas, there does not seem to be a right place to post this question.

My wife owns a 30's era log cabin on a cliff. A few years ago, the cliff began acting like it did not want to be a cliff anymore. Rather than risk waking up in the Chesapeake one morning, we decided to have the cabin moved back from the cliff.

The upside of a fairly expensive move is that for the first time we have a dedicated home theater room in the basement. The plan was to use it pretty much exclusively for Blu-Rays and streaming videos from NetFlix or Comcast On Demand. Previously, we had a 5.1 system in the living room, but the components were sort of hit-or-miss and the speaker placements were uniformly "miss."

Old System
Panasonic 50" Plasma (1080p)
Yamaha RX-V661 Receiver (HDMI 1.3)
Samsung Blu-Ray (not top of the line)
Fronts - Polk Monitor 50s
Center - Polk CS3
Rears - Polk R-15s (akin to the current T-15s)
Sub - Advent 12"

The new room is about 16x17. Part of the ceiling is about 8' and the rest is about 9'. I decided to go from 5.1 to 7.1 and put Polk VM20s in the front and center slots and pushed the remaining speakers to the sides and rears and replaced the Advent with a Polk MicroPro 3000. As this was a new room, I was able to decide on speaker placement before anything else. A sofa close to the center of the room is the main viewing location. I bought some Blu-Rays from the 'reference sound' list in an AVS forum.

And thus my troubles began! From the instant I hooked everything up and ran the YPAO setup program, the system sounded a thousand times better than either the prior upstairs system or the somewhat better main house system had even sounded before. Paradoxically, because the system sounded so good, I felt an overwhelming need to spend money make it sound even better.

Which leads me to the:
New System
Panasonic 50" Plasma (1080p)
Yamaha RX-V661 Receiver (HDMI 1.3)
Samsung Blu-Ray (not top of the line)
Fronts - Polk VM30s
Center - Polk VM20
Sides - Polk VM20s
Rears - Polk VM20s
Sub - SVS PC12 Plus
Front&Center Amp - Emotiva XPA-3.
Roku2 XS

The MicroPro 3000 spent very little time in my system!

The system sounded great before the latest upgrades. I am not sure just how much better it is now because I had to ship one of the VM20s back to Polk to fix a crossover, and thus cannot rerun YPAO with the new gear. I do know it looks and sounds better than I thought a moderately priced home system could sound. I expect to have the prodigal speaker back in time to install it and run at least preliminary YPAO set-up this coming weekend.

So, what is my problem?
Well, first of all, the combination of a Rives Audio test CD and what I think is a Radio Shack SPL meter tells me that what sounds great to my ear actually has frequency responses that are scattered all over the sonic map. The results are so bad that I think there must be something wrong with either my test equipment or my testing procedure. Among other things, I apparently have no output at all from 10Khz on up. As I am pushing 60, I am not going to hear much in that range in any case, but the meter tells me the sound simply is not there.

I think I need to play with this some more before I can ask the right questions about this.

My second problem is what brings me here. Although this started out as a home theater system pretty much exclusively, I have now decided that I would like to be able to listen to CDs as well. I do not have many CDs at the cabin, but the few that I have popped into the Samsung BD player so far have not sounded very musical at all. Music sounds great on the soundtrack of BD reference discs, but merely so-so with ordinary CDs. I do not think the difference in dynamic range between the two formats can account for that much of the difference.

So, where should I go from here? I don't want to shell out a grand or so for a high quality CD player - especially if the problem is elsewhere in the system! I have an old Rega Planet laying around that was a very good player in its day, but it has been close to ten years since I have used it, so I am not confident it can answer my question either.

What should I do to get the best music out of my system without giving up the home theater that I am already very happy with? Should I be listening in Pure Direct, 2 Channel, or something else? My sub seems to be pretty much MIA with CDs, and that could be a setting issue, I think.

I also wonder if the Oppo BDP-93 warrants consideration. I am not unhappy with my simple Samsung BD as far as it goes, but it is clear that the Oppo goes a lot farther. However, I do not own any SACDs or DVD-As, so some of those improvements will be lost on me. Will the Oppo give me better sound from my CDs? Will it give me noticeable improvement as a BD player?

Sorry this is so long. All advice, long or short, will be appreciated.
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post #2 of 19
5/28/12 at 2:31pm
Room equalization like YPAO should improve the sound whether you're listening to two-channel audio or multi-channel audio.

Since you're only down one speaker with identical surrounds, you might consider recalibrating them in a 6.1 configuration. Just place one of the rear surrounds directly behind your listening position. YPAO should be able to do the right thing. Check the manual to see if it wants the rear speaker to be on the left rear or right rear channel, though.

You haven't written about what you've done to optimize speaker placement and room acoustics. Two channel audio played with "Direct" enabled should sound fine if that's been done carefully. Traditional speaker placement and orientation and room treatment lore is still appropriate. When it's combined with room EQ (like YPAO), it should make the music sound that much better.

You didn't mention what CDs you've been listening to. Don't forget that most modern pop music has been disastrously compressed. Another production effect is that when people know the the final result is going to be made available in a high-resolution format, they tend to take more care with how they treat the sound during mixing. That's one reason why HDCDs tend to sound better than equivalent standard CDs. (I don't know if your AVR includes HDCD decoding. That feature is omitted from most BD players.)

You might also try turning the volume up just a little bit when playing a CD. CDs are not recorded at the same sound levels as BD audio tracks. Hopefully you're aware that something that's just the tiniest bit louder, by too small an amount to sound louder, sounds better.

And, of course, when you listen to something very carefully, you hear things you wouldn't ordinarily notice. Watching a performance can make a big difference about how you feel about the audio, too. A very few presentations are available with and without video, but you can't be sure they used the same mix for both. (I know Blue Man Group, The Eagles, and Dixie Chicks have done this; I'm sure other groups have, too. Heh. I guess I'm revealing my own music preferences )

Another effect, unfortunately, is "expectation bias". The BD sound might not actually be all that much better than the CD sound that you're listening to. Many of the real differences may be in the surround/ambiance channels or how it was mixed. The lossless audio provided on the vast majority of Blu-ray discs is technically only marginally better than the audio provided on CDs -- at best 48/16 vs 44.1/16. The difference is only that it's provided in multiple channels. Only a few, rare BDs contain audio tracks with more bits or faster sampling rates. It's called lossless not because it's using a high definition audio format, but rather because it isn't recorded using only the lossy Dolby and DTS compression methods.

You didn't explicitly mention if you were using a digital connection for your CDs or an analog connection. If you're playing them on the same BD player that you use for movies, you're probably, but not necessarily, using its HDMI connection, which should be fine. If you're thinking about using an older CD player, don't forget that the analog circuits of a CD player can degrade with time. The AVR also has to redigitize its stereo analog inputs, so that adds a step which could add some distortion of its own, although it should be inaudible. (Multichannel analog inputs don't get digitized, but no room correction, bass management or speaker distance corrections can be applied to them by modern AVRs -- those are all done only in the digital domain.)

As for the loss of high frequencies, I'd suggest getting the microphone and associated electronics calibrated so you can be sure they're working correctly. They might have gotten damaged.

For the sub, check the settings in your receiver. Typically the bass management crossover for all speakers (even those called "full range") should be set to 80Hz, while the low pass filter on the sub itself should be set at its upper limit; above 120Hz, if possible. Let the AVR do all of the bass management. I'm not familiar with the model of AVR that you have: often Direct, for example, sends audio only to the L & R fronts when used with a stereo source. Some AVRs will let you enable bass management in that mode, some won't.

I hope these comments help a little.
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post #3 of 19
5/28/12 at 4:18pm
Thread Starter 
Thanks for the detailed reply. I will try to respond to your points in order.

1. The Yamaha would let me configure a 6.1 set-up manually, but when I switched back to YPAO, it gave me error messages and stopped the test when it could not find the seventh speaker. It did this whether or not that speaker was connected. The speaker did not output sufficient volume for the 7.1 test to work, and it did not seem to have a 6.1 automatic option.

Does YPAO function as some sort of a parametric equalizer, or does it only adjust relative volume levels amongst the speakers?

I should have the seventh speaker back before my weekend visit to the cabin, and hopefully at least this problem will take care of itself.

2. Speaker placement - I posted an earlier forum question on 7.1 speaker placement and was provided a diagram showing appropriate speaker geometry. I am pretty confident I got the angles right, or at least within the suggested range.

3. I have not done anything for room treatment. I think the room is relatively 'dead.' It is in a basement, so the floor is concrete. There is carpet over the concrete, and the area between the sofa and the mains has a heavy area rug as well. The walls are also concrete, and they are covered with 30s style knotty pine planking. The ceiling is a bit irregular, as described before.

I do not really know anything about room treatment, but I do know the room sounds pretty good when a BD disc is playing.

4. Source material - All old school conventional CDs. No video, no HDCD. The only title I can recall off the top of my head is the The Who - View to a Backstage Pass which consists of a series of live concert recordings covering several decades. Sound quality is limited by the various original masters, but given that it is a semi-recent release, I do not think that it is especially compressed. Recording quality is probably similar to Live at Leeds, which at least sounded good on vinyl, all those years ago.

It being the The Who, I had no choice but to turn it up , but it just did not sound all that "live." It sounds more like a decent quality table radio than what should be expected from relatively full range speakers with 200 wpc amplification; especially when they are backed up by a truly fine subwoofer like the SVS.

5. Connections - HDMI throughout. I left one component out of the previous description. I have three HDMI sources (cable box, BD, and Roku2), whereas my AVR has only two HDMI inputs. Accordingly, I feed the BD and the Roku to a Monoprice switchbox when then feeds into one of the AVRs HDMI inputs.

6. HF loss - This one just does not make sense to me. The test disc has a couple of different frequencies between 10Khz and 20Khz, and the brand new mike does not pick up any of them. I am having trouble imagining an electronics failure that affects only the high frequencies, and likewise the idea that all of the speakers would have frequency failures like this does not work for me either. Then again, if I really did rule out all the possibilities, then the sound would be there, wouldn't it?

7. LFE Management - All of the speakers are set to small, with all signals below 80Hz sent to the sub, which the maker suggests setting at 80Hz as well. I think I need to play around with this some more, as there is a good chance I am missing something obvious that is taking the sub out of the two channel picture.

Again, all of your suggestions are much appreciated.
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post #4 of 19
5/29/12 at 5:31am
1. YPAO is the equivalent of a very good parametric equalizer. It also does level matching and distance/delay matching. See page 107 of the 661's manual. Its major flaw is that it only goes down to 32Hz, so doesn't fully equalize the sub.

2. Traditionally, tweeters should be at ear-level (or pointed toward them if the surrounds are overhead), fronts slightly toed in (although you need to listen for optimal orientation, some speaker designs work better otherwise) and if the center speaker can't be put at ear height (because that's where the display is), it should be tilted up or down so it points toward the ears, too. To some extent, YPAO can compensate for being off the speakers' axes, though.

3. Bare, flat wood walls can generate reflections which muddy the sound. Traditionally, absorbers and diffusers should be put at the first reflection points of the front speakers. A quick test is to clap your hands in the middle of the room and listen for how much of an echo you hear.

4. Several Who concerts are available on Blu-ray. You might consider comparing those. e.g. The Who at Kilburn (1977)

5. Your HDMI connections seem quite reasonable.

6. My suspicion is that the microphone's transducer is damaged or otherwise defective.

7. Matching the sub's crossover with that used for the fronts is a design used for systems without an LFE channel, where the subwoofer's own crossover is used to blend its upper frequencies into the low end of the front speakers. This is a configuration often used with two-channel audio systems, which drive the sub from the Left and Right speaker channels.

In contrast, the low-pass filter on a sub in a modern multichannel system needs to be set above 120Hz. A movie's LFE channel is allowed to contain frequencies up to 120Hz, and is always sent in its entirety to the AVR's subwoofer output. If you set the sub's own low-pass filter below 120Hz, the higher-frequency LFE audio will be attenuated. The AVR's internal crossover will properly send all of the speakers' audio that's below 80 Hz to the sub and above that to the main and surround speakers. (A quibble: unlike DVD audio, a BD's LFE channel is full-range, but sometimes sound editors forget that and accidentally fail to filter out spurious audio that's well above 120Hz. As a result, setting the low-pass filter to 120-150Hz is reasonable.)

When listening to 2-channel stereo, you can choose whether or not the subwoofer is used. See page 66 of the 661's manual.
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post #5 of 19
5/29/12 at 7:23am
Maybe neither but change to better receiver? I have had the RX-V663 for years and never ever been able to tweak it so it sounds acceptable either manually or by Ypao. I tried to bypass it´s DAC section and while it did do wonder only got me so far. To me it has a really U-shaped Frequency curve with a massive mid bass boost on top of that. To get bass under control I was left with a cold and over analytical sound that was not that impressive either. I thought I had problems with the room until I tried another and it was if possible worse. Finally gave up with EQ and all and got another receiver that was so much better while not spending any more. I also tried an older cheaper Yamaha receiver that was much more neutral and easier to get going. I read some review of the 663 being a party system. I guess I should been scared away by that...

Bluray players is much more versatile then the cd-player but you will lack the feeling knowing the player is 100 % dedicated to playing music. A lot of bluray players out there is not totally silent and is not always the best transports. Nothing prevents a bluray-player to be excellent for cd playback though.

Personally I run an Asus BDS-700 bluray player through dedicated DAC though it does have great analogue audio as well. Listen mostly to headphones but the 709 is easy to live with at least instead of disturbing like hell like the yamaha... Maybe it was faulty I don´t know...
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post #6 of 19
5/29/12 at 4:37pm
Thread Starter 
1. That is good to know. I never fully understood just what the YPAO (or Audyssey, on my home system) was doing, only that it sounded better when it got done.

2. The rears are mounted at eye level (standing), but all the rest of the tweeters are at seated ear level.

3. This is pine planking of varied width, not flat paneling, so there is a fair amount of texture to the wall surface. I will try the handclap test.

4. It never occurred to me that The Who might be on Blu-Ray. I see more spending in my future!

6. I think has to be the case. Not just the absence of HF measurement, but the way it says many of the other frequencies are off by miles just does not square with what I think I am hearing via BD discs.

7. I will follow your advice here. I am a little embarrassed that you got more out of the manual than I did, but I will track down the PDF once again and make sure the sub is working in two channel mode. the SVS is one of the newest pieces to my HT puzzle, and I amazed at just how much it contributes to the overall BD soundscape; not just in depth, but in the power behind something as simple as a car door slam. I want that goodness in my music as well.

Thanks very much for all of your time on this.
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post #7 of 19
5/29/12 at 4:42pm
Thread Starter 
oqvist,

I won't rule out a better processor, etc., but I think the current setup sounds pretty good when the music is from a BD source. That leads me to think my biggest current troubles are elsewhere. Still, I have been thinking about getting more separate amps as well as a new front-end. the problem is that now that I am getting over my long-term cheapness when it comes to HT, I am concerned that I don't know when to stop. The short time it took me to replace the Micropro 3000 is evidence of that!
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post #8 of 19
5/29/12 at 7:52pm
HT and home audio can be very expensive hobbies if you let yourself chase after small increments of improvement. One possibility is to try to find something that's at the current technological "sweet spot" near the limit of what you're willing to spend and then hold on to it until something is available which provides substantial improvements in all of the features which matter to you. This year, for example, it looks like most of the vendors are making only minor improvements in their new models, so that there are real bargains in marked-down models from a year or two ago while they're still available.

1. At least Yamaha publishes what their eq software does. The current industry leader (Audyssey) considers their own algorithms to be a trade secret. They are quite effective, though.

7. There's a minor trick to finding what you need in a manual: download a pdf version and then search through it for appropriate keywords. Being somewhat familiar with the technology helps, of course stereo and subwoofer were the keywords I used.
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post #9 of 19
5/30/12 at 3:36am
Thread Starter 
The seventh speaker is back. Now I just have to wait until Friday night to put it in the system. I appreciate all your help.

What would you suggest as a replacement for the SPL meter? And what would you upgrade first if this was your system? Where would the Oppo land in your priority list?
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post #10 of 19
5/30/12 at 5:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whovous View Post

oqvist,

I won't rule out a better processor, etc., but I think the current setup sounds pretty good when the music is from a BD source. That leads me to think my biggest current troubles are elsewhere.

The above suggests to me that the issue may be more behavioral then technical.

I could be wrong, but it is possible that your BD sources are mostly items you have not heard before, while your CD and DVD sources are old favorites.

I would then rephrase your complaint as being related to a feeling that your old favorites have "lost that loving feeling", because they now sound different.

Quote:


Still, I have been thinking about getting more separate amps as well as a new front-end. the problem is that now that I am getting over my long-term cheapness when it comes to HT, I am concerned that I don't know when to stop. The short time it took me to replace the Micropro 3000 is evidence of that!

Five words: "Don't go down this path". If your situation really is separation anxiety related to the sound of your old favorites, any other technical change you make is going to be either a waste of money or even make things worse.

Here's my advice for you: Stop changing your system for two weeks to a month. You can tell yourself that you are "breaking in" your new equipment or what, but in reality what's getting broken in is your ears and your brain. There are well-known scientific reasons for this - detailed in a well-known book entitled "This Is Your Brain On Music".

Tell you what - instead of buying any new equipment, buy the book. Once you've read it carefully the recommended 2-4 weeks will have passed, and you may well have a new, improved perspective. ;-)
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post #11 of 19
5/30/12 at 5:32am
For the short term, I agree with arnyk.

In the longer term, I'd investigate other inexpensive options -- like maybe simple room wall treatments. Eventually, replacing the AVR might be appropriate if enough new features are available.
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post #12 of 19
5/30/12 at 5:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

For the short term, I agree with arnyk.

In the longer term, I'd investigate other inexpensive options -- like maybe simple room wall treatments. Eventually, replacing the AVR might be appropriate if enough new features are available.

In turn, I 100% agree with the above. Some people are still going crazy around here trying to fix electronics when the problem (if there is a problem) is really the room.
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post #13 of 19
5/30/12 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whovous View Post

The seventh speaker is back. Now I just have to wait until Friday night to put it in the system. I appreciate all your help.

What would you suggest as a replacement for the SPL meter? And what would you upgrade first if this was your system? Where would the Oppo land in your priority list?

If your SPL meter uses A curve only, this is no surprise you don't get much of volume over 10kHz. You need to use meter with C curve option. You probably should HEAR tones up to 15kHz at your age.

Oppo player is only needed IF you have DVD-A or SACD, for anything else Samsung is sufficient. Since your room is a dedicated to HT, use acoustic panels to reduce reflections. It always helps. You may decide to place absorbing panels or diffusers on the ceiling too.
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post #14 of 19
5/30/12 at 6:22am
If I were in your shoes, I would first sell the Polks and then take that money and purchase a new set of speakers. That will yield your biggest differences in sound. I have never heard a good sounding Polk speaker, btw.
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post #15 of 19
5/30/12 at 9:44am
Thread Starter 
I do not think I have major problems with the room, the AVR or the speakers, as the combination sounds pretty good to the only person who matters (me!) with the right BD source material.

I do realize that because any system can be improved, that there is real danger in spending endless money searching for still more improvements. I will take everyone's advice and impose a moratorium on system changes for now.

The problem is compounded by the fact this system is in a weekend cabin, and I just don't get to hear it all that often. I plan to take some CDs with better sound quality this weekend and see if I can get a better idea of what is going on.

This is my SPL meter:
http://www.amazon.com/Velleman-Analo...949089&sr=8-13

I bought it in hopes that it was an unbranded version of the now-discontinued Radio Shack analog SPL meter. It looks like pictures I have seen of same. It has a C curve, and that is what I used.

I do not know if it is a true RatShack ripoff or not, but I am increasingly confident there is something wrong with it. It tells me some tones that sound quiet to me are loud, some that sound loud are quiet, and that I have almost no output whatsoever above 10Khz. It does this after I have run YPAO and done my own tweaking on top of that.

More simply, I just do not trust it. I need to either decide my ears are more important than the opinions of a meter, or, at some point, I need to get a new meter. But, as advised, I should probably take a break for now.
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post #16 of 19
5/30/12 at 10:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by whovous View Post

I do not think I have major problems with the room, the AVR or the speakers, as the combination sounds pretty good to the only person who matters (me!) with the right BD source material.

I do realize that because any system can be improved, that there is real danger in spending endless money searching for still more improvements. I will take everyone's advice and impose a moratorium on system changes for now.

The problem is compounded by the fact this system is in a weekend cabin, and I just don't get to hear it all that often. I plan to take some CDs with better sound quality this weekend and see if I can get a better idea of what is going on.

This is my SPL meter:
http://www.amazon.com/Velleman-Analo...949089&sr=8-13

I bought it in hopes that it was an unbranded version of the now-discontinued Radio Shack analog SPL meter. It looks like pictures I have seen of same. It has a C curve, and that is what I used.

I do not know if it is a true RatShack ripoff or not, but I am increasingly confident there is something wrong with it. It tells me some tones that sound quiet to me are loud, some that sound loud are quiet, and that I have almost no output whatsoever above 10Khz. It does this after I have run YPAO and done my own tweaking on top of that.

More simply, I just do not trust it. I need to either decide my ears are more important than the opinions of a meter, or, at some point, I need to get a new meter. But, as advised, I should probably take a break for now.

Your ears and what you like are all important here - not what some electronic device says you should like or enjoy.
As far as music goes when played via today's blu-ray player, receivers, etc. goes . . I keep my old Denon DCD-2560 hooked up in my system because it does a better job of providing music to my ears than any other optical disc device I have in my system (dvd, blu-ray & hd-dvd). I'll also say that my old Hafler pre/power amp was better for music than my Yamaha RX-V1 - and the RX-V1 is superior to my current Yamaha RX-V3900 receiver for music. But I stay with the 3900 in my main system because it has the features & capabilities I want in my home theater for movie and video purposes.
I suggest you drag out your favorite old cd player, hook it up, and give it a run and see if that doesn't allow you to enjoy your music.
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post #17 of 19
5/30/12 at 10:59am
Thread Starter 
Hafler did some really nice work. My analog system (Dahlquist DQ10s, GAS Thaedra/Ampzilla, Linn Basik w/ Sonus Blue/Gold, and Rega Planet) has been gathering dust for way too long. With that, at least, I knew what I was listening to. Geez, is it getting to be time to take out an old fogey license?

I may try hauling the Planet out there.
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post #18 of 19
5/30/12 at 11:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whovous View Post

Hafler did some really nice work. My analog system (Dahlquist DQ10s, GAS Thaedra/Ampzilla, Linn Basik w/ Sonus Blue/Gold, and Rega Planet) has been gathering dust for way too long. With that, at least, I knew what I was listening to. Geez, is it getting to be time to take out an old fogey license?

I may try hauling the Planet out there.

I did not have the level of system that you are describing - but - the personally assembled Hafler power/pre combo did a great job coupled with the original M&K's (twin 4 driver satellites + 2 powered subwoofers) in one room and DCM Time Windows in the other. Used an ADC 1700 turntable + Shure V15 Type V . . awesome tonearm in a reasonably priced turntable. Don't you miss cleaning all those half speed mastered virgin vinyl LPs to get the best sound possible out of them? I always enjoyed listening to them, but caring for them was a huge pia for sure.
And yes - I still have all that equipment . . .
Also yes - old fogies rule!
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post #19 of 19
6/1/12 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by whovous View Post

I won't rule out a better processor, etc., but I think the current setup sounds pretty good when the music is from a BD source.

Of course BD music is multichannel while CD is 2 channel. Is this why CDs don't sound as good to you? Are you listening to CDs in 'pure direct' mode without the sub or in 'straight' mode with the fronts and sub only... or in one of the receiver's DSP modes like '7ch stereo' that puts 2ch material into all of the speakers to give you surround sound again?

I also have an HT system based around a Yamaha AVR that is also my main music system as well. In fact it is more of a music system and TV/movies is a lower priority for me.

One thing... I have never liked the EQ YPAO applies as I have found it always kills too much detail and make things sound flat. I run EQ off or with my own GEQ settings. And because it is more of a music system... I run the crossover to the subs at 60hz... not 80.
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