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Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 40

post #1171 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rworne View Post

Looks like we'll be getting some new Onkyo toys soon.
Wi-Fi alliance leaked new iPhone/iPad docks with Airplay capability: Onkyo DS-A5 and Integra DMI-40.4
http://certifications.wi-fi.org/pdf_certificate.php?cid=WFA14897
288
Onkyo Airplay Adapter UP-AR1:
http://certifications.wi-fi.org/pdf_certificate.php?cid=WFA11814
https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/oetcf/eas/reports/ViewExhibitReport.cfm?mode=Exhibits&RequestTimeout=500&calledFromFrame=N&application_id=725227&fcc_id='ATMUPAR1'
(This is the Universal Port Airplay adapter I mentioned a while back, considering the time since certification, they likely decided not to release it).

It had better be cheap or there is really no point, just get an apple tv.

-Rich
post #1172 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by rworne View Post

Jason370:
They may be confused. The app they have may not support it, but the Spotify widget or client or whatever they call it in the AVR is missing shuffle and this is annoying at least to not include it. I like the Spotify service so much, I sprung for a paid sub and my development units are constantly streaming Spotify mainly to keep me amused/entertained while coding,

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here, can you please clarify?
post #1173 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason370 View Post

i'm not sure i understand what you are saying here, can you please clarify?

You mentioned they said their app does not support it. When I read app, it read it as the Android/iOS app. I can say that these do not support it because I do and it still does not work.

The issue is with their Spotify client in the receiver. If that is what they call an app, it's really confusing.

They have some work to do on these - considering how well the did the Spotify implementation in the AVR, it's a shame they do not support random/repeat. This extends to the Pandora and Slacker support too. They are woefully behind e times compared to the Spotify client. Pandora seems unchanged from the TX-NRx07 days...
post #1174 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I see but why do you believe Sub EQ HT is desirable?

Well perhaps I am missing something. I thought that Sub EQ HT is better? I had read a review and the reviewer (of the 818) believed the Sub EQ HT to produce better bass. He also had the 3009 and a few other models that I forgot.
post #1175 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluestang View Post

What are you mains and center?
My center is Klipsch RC-42 ll and my two fronts are Klipsch RF-42 ll floorstanding speakers.
post #1176 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

Well perhaps I am missing something. I thought that Sub EQ HT is better? I had read a review and the reviewer (of the 818) believed the Sub EQ HT to produce better bass. He also had the 3009 and a few other models that I forgot.

I used the Sub Eq on the 818 for the first time a couple of days ago on my two subs set at exactly the same distances. I had previously used an RS analog SPL meter and together according to the SPL meter they were very close to 75db and Audyssey set them after calibration at +3, well within tolerance.

So, I decided to set them both exactly and found that one was 2db lower than the other. I went back and forth and finally settled on 70db per sub and when combined they measured exactly 75db. Audyssey set it a +.5 after calibration.

As I said before, the "EQ" designation confuses a lot of people into thinking that two subs are individually calibrated/corrected when they are simply measured for distance and level and then summed together for the calibration.
post #1177 of 9486
Thread Starter 
The primary advantage of the 818 is a newer video processor as well as better standby features (HDMI pass through, network power up from o-remote, etc) and it seems to run very cool and quiet. Only uses 8 watts or so with the standby features turned on.
post #1178 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

The primary advantage of the 818 is a newer video processor as well as better standby features (HDMI pass through, network power up from o-remote, etc) and it seems to run very cool and quiet. Only uses 8 watts or so with the standby features turned on.

I'm still amazed at how much they cut down the power consumption. Mine's been a steady 2.5W (I have the HDMI stuff turned off) for quite a while.

Did you also know they have smart grid features?

Yup, it can supposedly pick up on a "smart grid" signal and cut down on it's power consumption. The specs say it dims the VFD and drops the volume to one of three levels: -1dB, -3dB and -6dB. No idea how much that really reduces consumption though.
post #1179 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by FantaXP7 View Post

Well perhaps I am missing something. I thought that Sub EQ HT is better? I had read a review and the reviewer (of the 818) believed the Sub EQ HT to produce better bass. He also had the 3009 and a few other models that I forgot.

Sub EQ HT is not needed for best low frequency reproduction. What is needed is low seat-to-seat frequency response difference and a low number of non-minimum phase issues. Now an equalizer like MultEQ XT32 will deliver best results.

If you think what Sub EQ HT does is important then simply put your subs equidistant from the main listening position and set the level for each sub to 75dB SPL C with an SPL meter. That's all Sub EQ HT does.
post #1180 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Sub EQ HT is not needed for best low frequency reproduction. What is needed is low seat-to-seat frequency response difference and a low number of non-minimum phase issues. Now an equalizer like MultEQ XT32 will deliver best results.
If you think what Sub EQ HT does is important then simply put your subs equidistant from the main listening position and set the level for each sub to 75dB SPL C with an SPL meter. That's all Sub EQ HT does.
+1 but to emphasize some other points...

Audyssey SubEQ (818 does not have, 4311 does) is a tool that helps integrate two subs well. It independently sets the distance (delay/phase) and level for each sub. It does not do the EQ part, XT32 does that. The EQ step is performed on the overall sub system, not independently, which is a good thing. It is not the only technique or tool that can independently set those parameters though. You can independently set those parameters for two subs without SubEQ. AKA you can integrate multiple subs well without subeq and you can achieve as good results without subeq.

SubEQ is not much of a help for more than two subs although you can use some trickery to help it (same kind of trickery as two subs without subEQ). For instance with four subs do two equal distance from MLP off one jack and the other two a different but equal distance to each other off the other jack. Some of the other tools are more flexible (perhaps at the cost of some ease of use) to assist in the integration of such systems and some require your own external measuring set up through our computer and applications such as REW or an omni mic rig. Mini-DSP, Behringer, Velo SVS-1 are some of the tools that come to mind, but there are more.
post #1181 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Sub EQ HT is not needed for best low frequency reproduction. What is needed is low seat-to-seat frequency response difference and a low number of non-minimum phase issues. Now an equalizer like MultEQ XT32 will deliver best results.
If you think what Sub EQ HT does is important then simply put your subs equidistant from the main listening position and set the level for each sub to 75dB SPL C with an SPL meter. That's all Sub EQ HT does.

Interesting, good to know.

Thanks
post #1182 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Audyssey SubEQ (818 does not have, 4311 does) is a tool that helps integrate two subs well. It independently sets the distance (delay/phase) and level for each sub. It does not do the EQ part, XT32 does that. The EQ step is performed on the overall sub system, not independently, which is a good thing. It is not the only technique or tool that can independently set those parameters though. You can independently set those parameters for two subs without SubEQ. AKA you can integrate multiple subs well without subeq and you can achieve as good results without subeq.

Correct but I don't think Sub EQ HT (not "SubEQ") "integrates two subs well". They don't need to be "integrated" or aligned so they both have the same delay and level (although level and delay are key to good low frequency pre-optimization). Other factors are more important.
post #1183 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Correct but I don't think Sub EQ HT (not "SubEQ") "integrates two subs well". They don't need to be "integrated" or aligned so they both have the same delay and level (although level and delay are key to good low frequency pre-optimization). Other factors are more important.

I am referring to Audyssey SubEQ HT throughout my post, is there some other tech/feature called SubEQ not made by audyssey you all are also discussing? Reference please?

I'm not sure if you are saying it doesn't do a good job or if it's sole purpose is not to help with two subs or something else???

The only features provided by Audyssey SubEQ HT assist in using two subs in your system (aka "integrating" them / getting them to play nicely together ) Audyssey SubEQ HT offers nothing different than stand alone XT32 for a single sub system. It does offer additional features above XT32 for a two sub systems.
post #1184 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I am referring to Audyssey SubEQ HT throughout my post, is there some other tech/feature called SubEQ not made by audyssey you all are also discussing? Reference please?

No offense meant but a lot of the confusion about the 818 not having a subwoofer equalizer (which it does have) stems from people not being exact in their wording. Using anything other than "Sub EQ HT" isn't helpful. But the biggest mistake probably made Audyssey themselves in calling the simple process off aligning delay and level "EQ". This is not what an EQ does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I'm not sure if you are saying it doesn't do a good job or if it's sole purpose is not to help with two subs or something else???

Sub EQ HT most likely works as intended (aligning delay and level). All I'm saying is that this process is not needed. Aligning multiple subwoofers in delay and level doesn't guarantee flat frequency response nor does it guarantee the absence of non-minimum phase locations. But both of these conditions are a prerequisite for being able to optimally equalize the frequency response.
post #1185 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

No offense meant but a lot of the confusion about the 818 not having a subwoofer equalizer (which it does have) stems from people not being exact in their wording. Using anything other than "Sub EQ HT" isn't helpful. But the biggest mistake probably made Audyssey themselves in calling the simple process off aligning delay and level "EQ". This is not what an EQ does.
Roger that, there's a lot of confusion on the subject. As I've said before, I think the name is horrible as well and vote it be renamed to DualSubHelperThingy. I'll try to stick to "Sub EQ HT" in the future. There is no EQ to Sub EQ HT, XT32 does the EQ. The 818 does EQ the sub/subs even though it does not have Audyssey Sub EQ HT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Sub EQ HT most likely works as intended (aligning delay and level). All I'm saying is that this process is not needed. Aligning multiple subwoofers in delay and level doesn't guarantee flat frequency response nor does it guarantee the absence of non-minimum phase locations. But both of these conditions are a prerequisite for being able to optimally equalize the frequency response.

I think we can agree to disagree on whether or not aligning level and distance is "needed" (I desire it and value it in my system and would not do multiple subs without it), but I understand what you are saying. I was simply emphasizing for those asking what Sub EQ HT does provide and the fact that what it does can be done in other ways; not assessing it's value. Certainly there are more important factors.


A good straight forward quote from Audyssey employee, Chris Kyriakakis
Quote:
MultEQ XT32 is the flagship version of our technology to measure and correct room acoustical problems. Sub EQ HT is a method we came up with to deal with multiple subs. If you only have one sub then it's not in use. The idea is to first measure each sub separately, then apply delay and level settings so that the two subs are now time and level aligned. Then we ping them once more as "one" sub to derive the room correction filter.
post #1186 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

I think we can agree to disagree on whether or not aligning level and distance is "needed" (I desire it and value it in my system and would not do multiple subs without it), but I understand what you are saying.

Again no offense meant but if you would really understand what I'm saying then you would value other factors more than simple delay or level alignment. A EQ can't do anything against non-minimum phase locations and large seat-to-seat differences. It's like cleaning the windshield of your car and putting air in the tires while the tank is still empty.
post #1187 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Again no offense meant but if you would really understand what I'm saying then you would value other factors more than simple delay or level alignment. A EQ can't do anything against non-minimum phase locations and large seat-to-seat differences. It's like cleaning the windshield of your car and putting air in the tires while the tank is still empty.

My cars windshield is clean, there is air in the tires, gas in the tank, oil, brake fluid, transmission fluid, an alignment, the lights work... it's even got all the valid stickers.

As I stated, other factors are more influential such as the room (including contents, configuration, and treatments), sub placement, the sub itself (including its capabilities and its configuration)... But if you think you can get a optimal frequency response with poor distance settings than you are simply wrong. If the SPL at main listening position of one sub is 80 and the SPL of the other sub is 40, than the benefits to frequency response of employing multiple subs will not be achieved.

I did read the paper you linked to which also acknowledges the benefit to achieving proper phase relationships, which the distance setting provides.

This discussion was about Sub EQ HT IMO and not the other factors.

But, if we are back to the relative value of phase, then it's well established, acknowledged and re-acknowledged, other factors are more import. However there is value in setting it properly. I understand why you are de-emphasizing it but please do not say there is no value in doing it or any of the other phrases you used before. Does fuel in the tank help you drive to your destination safely across town if you can't see out of the windows or eliminate them? Each of the values are important to an optimal system, some have more influential effects than others. Achieving optimal rarely if ever happens... but it is what I and most people on such a forum strives for and gradually approaches.

I understand you are very knowledgeable in many aspects of HT.
post #1188 of 9486
EngadgetHD: Onkyo upgrades remote apps for latest-gen receivers, intros music streaming Bluetooth adapter

http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/17/onkyo-remote-2-apps-ubt-1-bluetooth-adapter/
post #1189 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

I am in line to buy a surround speakers. I am down to 2 choices: JBL ES20BK bookshelf or Klipsch RB-41 ll bookshelf speakers. Which one you guys recommend?
My question still stand. I used have Onkyo HT-S9300 THX. Than I changed the receiver to 818. Than I bought Klipsch RC-42 ll to replace the center speaker and Klipsch RF-42 ll to replace 2 fronts. Now I am looking to replace 2 surrounds with either Klipsch RB-41 ll or JBL ES20BK bookshelf speakers. Which one is better?
post #1190 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by osr5dude View Post

EngadgetHD: Onkyo upgrades remote apps for latest-gen receivers, intros music streaming Bluetooth adapter
http://www.engadget.com/2012/07/17/onkyo-remote-2-apps-ubt-1-bluetooth-adapter/

That article didn't say much really, but from what I can glean from it - it looks like they have done the same thing with the iOS applications they did already with the Android ones - have the iOS device show up as a DLNA server and allow the app to browse and playback songs that way. Unless they slipped Airplay in the last firmware and I didn't see it (not likely). I'm curious as to what they use for DLNA, I haven't found anything on iOS that worked well.

And what they mean by Zone improvements: They fixed the Zone 2 controls in the latest firmware versions to support menu based controls in the 2012 models. It's buggy as all get out right now as I have been working on it for several weeks and it has issues with keeping everything updated across zones. That and Zone 3 has busted network controls.

I've already visited the BT adapter before, at least now they mention what it does (stream only, auto-switch to USB). This isn't what they mean by the iOS streaming, because this does not support any kind of song info.
post #1191 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbasbell View Post

My question still stand. I used have Onkyo HT-S9300 THX. Than I changed the receiver to 818. Than I bought Klipsch RC-42 ll to replace the center speaker and Klipsch RF-42 ll to replace 2 fronts. Now I am looking to replace 2 surrounds with either Klipsch RB-41 ll or JBL ES20BK bookshelf speakers. Which one is better?

Suspect you'll get more help in the speakers forum than a thread about a particular AVR, also you should run some forum specific searches over there. I personally do not have an opinion on them though. Good Luck.
post #1192 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Suspect you'll get more help in the speakers forum than a thread about a particular AVR, also you should run some forum specific searches over there. I personally do not have an opinion on them though. Good Luck.

+1 on that as well. Also keep in mind that there's so many lines and brands of speakers that it's tough for most anyone to really have an idea which might be better than another speaker. I think I remember a couple of pages back or so, that someone had asked you what your other speakers are, and they suggested that you keep all your speakers as similar as you possibly can. I mean similar is in all your speakers being the same brand and if at all possible, same line up from that brand as well. At least for optimal results.

So if your other speakers are currently Klipch's, then go with the Klipch's you're asking about. Same advice goes for if your other speakers you currently own are JBL's.
post #1193 of 9486
I was planning on picking up an 818 tonight, but just reading that even though it has xt32, it wont do delay etc on multiple subs.

So is the dual sub outs just split internally ? The main reason I wanted to go with the 818 over the Marantz 6006 was because of dual sub delay and phase calculations. For the price of the 818 locally I can get a denon 4311 from a4l.com.

So is Sub EQ HT what I am really after ? I plan on setting up a dedicated home theatre room soon, and wanted to run dual rythmik subs. I don't have or plan to use REW. I was hoping XT32 would take care of everything. Now I'm having second thoughts, as the Marantz looks much nicer sitting on the rack, and is 1/2 the price, while the 4311 seems to be better featured for the same price.

A plus for the 818 is that it weighs a lot, and seems to have good power reserves. Thoughts ?
post #1194 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

I was planning on picking up an 818 tonight, but just reading that even though it has xt32, it wont do delay etc on multiple subs.
So is the dual sub outs just split internally ?

Yes, the dual sub outs just split internally. Where are you planning to place your subs?
post #1195 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Yes, the dual sub outs just split internally. Where are you planning to place your subs?

Thanks for the reply. So really to me the only difference between the 818 and the current gen of mid priced 7.2 receivers is a better amp and XT32 vs XT.

Is XT32 worth paying double ? I'm eventually going to run Crown class D pro amps so the amp section isn't really important.

As for subs I'm not 100% sure. I have to decide on a house layout first. The plan is either dual rythmik fv15's placed symmetrically in room, or a single DIY folded horn setup as a seat riser for the rear seating row.

For example a Marantz 6006 is $650 refurbished. The 818 is $1250 or so new in store.
post #1196 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Thanks for the reply. So really to me the only difference between the 818 and the current gen of mid priced 7.2 receivers is a better amp and XT32 vs XT.
Is XT32 worth paying double ? I'm eventually going to run Crown class D pro amps so the amp section isn't really important.
As for subs I'm not 100% sure. I have to decide on a house layout first. The plan is either dual rythmik fv15's placed symmetrically in room, or a single DIY folded horn setup as a seat riser for the rear seating row.

I believe XT32 provides the resolution needed to tackle low frequency problems. XT not so much.

If you plan on placing your subs equidistant to the main listening position then you don't need Sub EQ HT at all. In that case your subs are already "Sub EQ HT"-aligned.
post #1197 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Thanks for the reply. So really to me the only difference between the 818 and the current gen of mid priced 7.2 receivers is a better amp and XT32 vs XT.
Is XT32 worth paying double ? I'm eventually going to run Crown class D pro amps so the amp section isn't really important.
As for subs I'm not 100% sure. I have to decide on a house layout first. The plan is either dual rythmik fv15's placed symmetrically in room, or a single DIY folded horn setup as a seat riser for the rear seating row.
For example a Marantz 6006 is $650 refurbished. The 818 is $1250 or so new in store.

You can get the 818 for alot less online if that's possible for you.
post #1198 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

Thanks for the reply. So really to me the only difference between the 818 and the current gen of mid priced 7.2 receivers is a better amp and XT32 vs XT.
Is XT32 worth paying double ? I'm eventually going to run Crown class D pro amps so the amp section isn't really important.
As for subs I'm not 100% sure. I have to decide on a house layout first. The plan is either dual rythmik fv15's placed symmetrically in room, or a single DIY folded horn setup as a seat riser for the rear seating row.
For example a Marantz 6006 is $650 refurbished. The 818 is $1250 or so new in store.

If you are going the DIY route, use one amp for both subs and you shouldn't have any issues with phase between the subs.
post #1199 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD View Post

If you are going the DIY route, use one amp for both subs and you shouldn't have any issues with phase between the subs.

There are "issues with phase" as soon as you put a sub in an enclosed space (e.g. a room) smile.gif
post #1200 of 9486
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanc View Post

For the price of the 818 locally I can get a denon 4311 from a4l.com.
... the 4311 seems to be better featured for the same price.

I agree the 4311 is better featured. If you can get it "for the same price" it's a no-brainer.

Problem is, I seriously doubt you can get a 4311 for the same price as an 818. But if you can, by all means do it.
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