AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion - Page 131

post #3901 of 7320
1/4/13 at 11:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

Yes. Displaying 24 FPS @60Hz requires a 3:2 conversion.
That's telecine.

Sorry, getting fps and hz mixed up. So having my Panny ST50 24p set to 60hz negates the 818 24p bug? And effectively negates any 24p benefit since setting it to 48hz is unwatchable?

I'm beginning to think I made two poor choices here. The ST50 AND the 818. mad.gif
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #3902 of 7320
1/4/13 at 11:45am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by babgvant View Post

No. Most OEMs don't make a distinction b/w 24.000 & 23.976 in the UI.
I don't think you'll be happy w/ 48Hz because of the issues w/ flicker. 3:2 judder is less annoying than flicker IMO.

Absolutely. 48hz has a lot of flicker and most users will not tolerate it. It's worth pointing out that the ST and GT series TVs accept 24P input from your BD or HTPC source and give you the option to display it at 48hz or 60hz. You will get dropped/duped frames with either though since the TV is taking the bad 24P signal from the Onkyo and then working with it.

The sad thing is that the Panasonic sets actually do a remarkable job these days with 3:2 pulldown conversion, but the catch-22 is for the TV to do this you need to send it the 24P source, which, when using the 818 introduces the issue.... I think the best option for someone with a GT or ST set is to set their source device to 24P and then use the sub-out on the Onkyo, and then set the 24P direct on the TV to 60hz. The TV will do a better 3:2 conversion than most source devices.

If you have a VT series then use either 96hz or 60hz, depending on which you prefer, but you will get the best performance if you feed the set a 24P signal, unless you have a BD player or other source with superb video processing (maybe Oppo is as good as 3:2 as the panasonic, not sure).
Edited by jmpage2 - 1/4/13 at 12:17pm
Reply
Reply
post #3903 of 7320
1/4/13 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Krefly View Post

Sorry, getting fps and hz mixed up.

Although mentally I know the difference, I keep doing the same thing, and whoever pointed out the device settings and terminology used in the UI's isn't helping, +1


Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

I think the best option for someone with a GT or VT set is to set their source device to 24P and then use the sub-out on the Onkyo, and then set the 24P direct on the TV to 60hz. The TV will do a better 3:2 conversion than most source devices.

Is this your recommendation for panny ST series users also? Should the Monitor out on the Onkyo be "auto" or "1080P/24" or something else?

Thanks for the education everyone
Reply
Reply
post #3904 of 7320
1/4/13 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dstew100 View Post

Although mentally I know the difference, I keep doing the same thing, and whoever pointed out the device settings and terminology used in the UI's isn't helping, +1
Is this your recommendation for panny ST series users also? Should the Monitor out on the Onkyo be "auto" or "1080P/24" or something else?
Thanks for the education everyone

Actually I meant to say best thing for ST and GT. If you have a VT you should use the 60 or 96 hz setting for direct-in, depending on which you prefer. Some people still complain of a bit of flicker with the 96hz setting but I think it looks the best.
Reply
Reply
post #3905 of 7320
1/4/13 at 12:39pm
Well, since I have 2 weeks before I need to get an RMA, I might as well test out the 24p tonight / tomorrow night ono my Lg 55LHX and my Panasonic AE4000U projector, then decide if I'm willing to wait it out and keep it, or send it back and try something else.
Reply
Reply
post #3906 of 7320
1/4/13 at 12:42pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheaterChad View Post

Well, since I have 2 weeks before I need to get an RMA, I might as well test out the 24p tonight / tomorrow night, then decide if I'm willing to wait and see if a FM will surface anytime soon.

They've known about this issue since at least July/August, so I wouldn't hold your breath.
Reply
Reply
post #3907 of 7320
1/4/13 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

They've known about this issue since at least July/August, so I wouldn't hold your breath.



EVERYONE in this forum NEEDS to call Onkyo and report the VP bug regardless if they see it or not.
Reply
Reply
post #3908 of 7320
1/4/13 at 3:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

EVERYONE in this forum NEEDS to call Onkyo and report the VP bug regardless if they see it or not.

I already did report it to their technical team and they;

1. Reported that such an issue did not exist.
2. Recommended I change settings on the video processor that had no effect on the problem.

I asked them to escalate the issue to engineering and they said that the only way they could do that is if I shipped the unit back to them at my cost and they investigated it (with no idea how long they would have it). Worth pointing out that they did not even understand the difference between 23.976 and 24.000.
Reply
Reply
post #3909 of 7320
1/4/13 at 3:25pm
As others have pointed out, calling them will do no good. But using their online system to register a complaint and open a ticket (use your serial number!), and even linking them to this forum and the missingremote review that addresses the problem (http://www.missingremote.com/review/onkyo-tx-nr818-72-channel-network-av-receiver), *might* get them to do something about it...not holding my breath, but it's better than nothing?
Reply
Reply
post #3910 of 7320
1/4/13 at 3:43pm
We need to get everyone involved, I have contacted Joe Rod about this and everyone should do the same. Hometheater Mag reviews Onkyo receivers and gives them great reviews especially for their VP section, well if they use the same VP solution then they all should have the same bug. If all Onkyo receivers have this bug and Hometheater mag missed it they SHOULD contact Onkyo about a fix and publish this find in their magazine. The bottom line is we need to contact not only Onkyo but the online and mag reviewers too.
Reply
Reply
post #3911 of 7320
1/4/13 at 3:54pm
What specific video/movie could be recommended to demonstrate this 23.976 fps problem, so it would be obvious to anyone?
Reply
Reply
post #3912 of 7320
1/4/13 at 4:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

We need to get everyone involved, I have contacted Joe Rod about this and everyone should do the same. Hometheater Mag reviews Onkyo receivers and gives them great reviews especially for their VP section, well if they use the same VP solution then they all should have the same bug. If all Onkyo receivers have this bug and Hometheater mag missed it they SHOULD contact Onkyo about a fix and publish this find in their magazine. The bottom line is we need to contact not only Onkyo but the online and mag reviewers too.

Indeed. In fact, I'm sort of shocked that it's not in some of the mags already. Letters to the editor if nothing else. Frankly, I'm surprised that they haven't been sued or at least threatened by consumer groups for false advertising.
Reply
Reply
post #3913 of 7320
1/4/13 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

What specific video/movie could be recommended to demonstrate this 23.976 fps problem, so it would be obvious to anyone?

Pretty much any Blu-ray with a player that support 24P (ish) output.

- Rich
Reply
Reply
post #3914 of 7320
1/4/13 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RichB View Post

Pretty much any Blu-ray with a player that support 24P (ish) output.
- Rich

As it happens only once in 40 seconds and only noticeable on panning scenes, and not on static ones, how long should one concentrate on the screen to catch it... Obviously with some videos it is more noticeable than with others...
Reply
Reply
post #3915 of 7320
1/4/13 at 5:42pm
guys what do u run the impedance setting at in your 818? i have mine set to 6ohm with my definitive tech speakers, i mean thats what it was set to by default i guess, i didnt change that, is that the correct setting?
Reply
Reply
post #3916 of 7320
1/4/13 at 5:43pm
There are some decent slow pans in the beginning of Fellowship of the Ring where it's noticeable. Keep in mind, however, that Peter Jackson is well aware of the limitations of 24p (hence his use of faster equipment to film The Hobbit), and he was careful to keep the subject in a static spot in most of those pans, so I don't know if those are the best examples, but they're the only ones so far where I was able to notice the issue on my 818.
Reply
Reply
post #3917 of 7320
1/4/13 at 7:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

What specific video/movie could be recommended to demonstrate this 23.976 fps problem, so it would be obvious to anyone?

Try Transformers 3. It was unwatchable for me.

Instead of calling or emailing onkyo, I suggest we flood their forums. It has already been brought to their attention and a moderator responded saying they are looking into the matter.

http://forums.onkyousa.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=138
Reply
Reply
post #3918 of 7320
1/4/13 at 7:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

As it happens only once in 40 seconds and only noticeable on panning scenes, and not on static ones, how long should one concentrate on the screen to catch it... Obviously with some videos it is more noticeable than with others...

My advice is if you haven't noticed it, don't worry about it. Certainly if it hasn't been something you picked up on in casual viewing, don't go "looking" for it because once you notice it, it is very hard not to see it all the time.
Reply
Reply
post #3919 of 7320
1/4/13 at 8:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by skybolt View Post

True, but I doubt Onkyo is prarusing these forums either. From what I gather they are in denile or something. We need to register our complaints with them so it can get recongized. unless I missed something, they don't know this exists.
If enough of us flooded them with service emails or something maybe they would take notice.


Hi Markus,

We are currently researching the issue and will advise you with our findings.

Thank you for your patience,

Forum Moderator 2
Reply
Reply
post #3920 of 7320
1/4/13 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Butny View Post

We need to get everyone involved, I have contacted Joe Rod about this and everyone should do the same. Hometheater Mag reviews Onkyo receivers and gives them great reviews especially for their VP section, well if they use the same VP solution then they all should have the same bug. If all Onkyo receivers have this bug and Hometheater mag missed it they SHOULD contact Onkyo about a fix and publish this find in their magazine. The bottom line is we need to contact not only Onkyo but the online and mag reviewers too.

I am shocked reviewers did not catch this...
Reply
Reply
post #3921 of 7320
1/4/13 at 10:04pm
Does anyone have the ability to see if upscaling to 4K also has the 24fps bug? Just curious.

Thing is, Onkyo is using HQV and Marvell chips. Unless one of those chips has a frame rate bug, this would seem to be fixable in the Onkyo firmware.
Reply
Reply
post #3922 of 7320
1/4/13 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NODES View Post

Hi Markus,
We are currently researching the issue and will advise you with our findings.
Thank you for your patience,
Forum Moderator 2

I'm glad Onkyo is paying attention! Hopefully this means good things!?!?
Reply
Reply
post #3923 of 7320
1/4/13 at 10:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Johnson View Post

I'm glad Onkyo is paying attention! Hopefully this means good things!?!?
Don't count on it.
Reply
Reply
post #3924 of 7320
1/5/13 at 12:27am
I just verify that my unit do have the 24p issue. My lumagen vp do report 24 if I go through AVR, but show 23.98 when I do direct from Oppo. Well, but like many mentioned, I couldn't notice it on a few discs I try...that maybe a good thing for being dumb smile.gif regardless, I do bypass it as I am using oppo dual output. With the price I got and the need I have (only audio processing), I think it is quite good.
Reply
Reply
post #3925 of 7320
1/5/13 at 3:01am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Johnson View Post

It has already been brought to their attention and a moderator responded saying they are looking into the matter.
They have already responded in this way to a lot of complaints about gapless... And finally, after some moths, told on their forum that they are not working on this... mad.gif
Reply
Reply
post #3926 of 7320
1/5/13 at 3:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmpage2 View Post

My advice is if you haven't noticed it, don't worry about it. Certainly if it hasn't been something you picked up on in casual viewing, don't go "looking" for it because once you notice it, it is very hard not to see it all the time.

I haven't used it much for video yet (the cable TV is not going through the receiver and I got media player only recently), ant it was running in 60p mode where I see pretty noticeable 3:2 judder. I want to test how it looks in 24p, and if it is bad I need to prove it not only to myself, but to someone else also, to claim the AVR is defective...
Reply
Reply
post #3927 of 7320
1/5/13 at 3:27am
Also, together with this 24 fps issue... I would like to bring to attention of 818 owners again, as I didn't get any response from owners of 818 about this issue. I have a serious issue with Audyssey on 818 heavily boosting frequencies below the lowest frequency point my speakers can play. This leads to increased distortion (very noticeable). It seems I have defective Audyssey microphone (that leads to over-boosting high frequencies) but this generally should not produce boost at low frequencies below F3 point. I am waiting for replacement mic currently, but I seriously doubt that it will fix the boost at low frequency and I don't know if this problem can affect more 818's or only mine is problematic...

So, for anyone who owns 818 and can measure it's electrical frequency response from line outs (not acoustical, as the problem is beyond the speaker range) with Audyssey Off and Audyssey Music - it would be good to do it and report here to confirm it is not common problem with 818, or else we need one more critical fix from Onkyo... My original graphs showing the problem are here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/58440#post_22747538
Reply
Reply
post #3928 of 7320
1/5/13 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

I haven't used it much for video yet (the cable TV is not going through the receiver and I got media player only recently), ant it was running in 60p mode where I see pretty noticeable 3:2 judder. I want to test how it looks in 24p, and if it is bad I need to prove it not only to myself, but to someone else also, to claim the AVR is defective...

The 60fps rate is being altered too
Reply
Reply
post #3929 of 7320
1/5/13 at 6:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

Also, together with this 24 fps issue... I would like to bring to attention of 818 owners again, as I didn't get any response from owners of 818 about this issue. I have a serious issue with Audyssey on 818 heavily boosting frequencies below the lowest frequency point my speakers can play.

Audyssey selects the acoustical -3dB point it finds in-room.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

This leads to increased distortion (very noticeable).

Set the crossover higher.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IgorZep View Post

So, for anyone who owns 818 and can measure it's electrical frequency response from line outs (not acoustical, as the problem is beyond the speaker range) with Audyssey Off and Audyssey Music - it would be good to do it and report here to confirm it is not common problem with 818, or else we need one more critical fix from Onkyo... My original graphs showing the problem are here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/58440#post_22747538

In your measurement you removed the HP your receiver applies so it looks like MultEQ is boosting but in fact it simply ensures that the correct acoustical roll-off in combination with the receiver's HP is met.
Reply
Reply
post #3930 of 7320
1/5/13 at 7:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Set the crossover higher.

1) I shouldn't do this. I am posting it not because I am asking for ways how to workaround a serious bug in the receiver. I shouldn't do it, and it is pretty legal to not have subwoofer and to have fronts in Full-range mode.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

in fact it simply ensures that the correct acoustical roll-off in combination with the receiver's HP is met.

2) correcting for acoustical roll-off (with a price of distortion and danger of damaging speakers) is nonsense!
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › Onkyo TX-NR818 "official" owner's thread discussion